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[family_guy]

I don't find it racist but I think that's something each person has to decide for themselves. Let's look at a potential sexual harassment scenario:

Guy: Hey that's a nice dress.

Girl A: Thank you. Goes about her day.


Guy: Hey that's a nice dress.

Girl B: ...thank you. Goes to HR.

Some people are unreasonable but we can't tell them how they should react to something.

 

[Alucrid]

I know what you're saying, but

http://i.imgur.com/bgFiaeU.jpg[IMG]

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


OT: dressing up as Cpt America, or Iron Man is a different league than Michonne. These are two well known characters from popular comics and movies, the other is a popular character from a TV show not everyone watches. The example of the caucasian Michonne doesn't really apply, because she's carrying two zombie-cosplayers with her. Without the two zombies, she'd be a white girl in rags rocking dreads. Maybe this German chick doesn't have friends who like to be chained up and dragged around all night?[/QUOTE]

the walking dead was a comic first. also, if it is an obscure reference, how does painting yourself black get that point across any better

 

[Sephzilla]

This Halloween if I dress up in a Captain America outfit, it's pretty clear who I'm dressing up as. I do not need to wear beige makeup around my mouth in order for people to understand I'm dressing up as Captain America.

That's because Captain America / Iron Man / Batman have other very obvious visual identifiers like Cap's shield, the arc reactor, or the bat symbol. Does this walking dead character have those same type of eye catching parts of her?

This is more akin to a white guy dressing up as Luke Cage. Nobody is going to know who he is without asking.

 

[Summer Haze]

Not a single point relates to the cosplay in the OP. Blackface IS racist. This cosplay isn't blackface.

This.

 

[BGBW]

Maybe they did, but they certainly didn't have the same cultural impact over here than they do in the US. Nobody knows wtf a minstrel show is on this side of the ocean, and if I weren't browsing Neogaf I wouldn't either. So it would be hard for anybody in Europe to make the relation between black makeup and a show that aired half a century ago in a foreign country.

Minstrel shows existed in the UK (which is part of this side of the ocean). We also have our own taboo called a Golliwog, which is a infamous doll that has a black face with piercing white eye, giant red lips and fuzzy black hair. Black caricatures existed over here and are not a US only thing.

However I do believe the title of this thread was a mistake as the term 'blackface' clearly means different things to different people and thus many have dismissed this as not blackface and therefore not really an issue. If the title was something like 'Cosplayer labelled "racist" for painting face black for her The Walking Dead's Michonne costume' then maybe there would have been less dismissal of the subject.

 

[cheezcake]

Yo so can people explicitly tell me why they find this racist.

As in not just "IT'S BLACKFACE IT'S RACIST", but their reasoning for why this particular form of 'blackface' is racist.

I'm just curious.

 

[besada]

Save your energy and pace yourselves. We have all of Halloween and the annual Zwarte Piet thread in which to discuss black face.

 

[Wthermans]

I don't find it racist but I think that's something each person has to decide for themselves. Let's look at a potential sexual harassment scenario:

Guy: Hey that's a nice dress.

Girl A: Thank you. Goes about her day.


Guy: Hey that's a nice dress.

Girl B: ...thank you. Goes to HR.

Some people are unreasonable but we can't tell them how they should react to something.

If people are acting unreasonable, society has every right to tell them they are acting unreasonable.

 

[Slayven]

That's because Captain America / Iron Man / Batman have other very obvious visual identifiers like Cap's shield, the arc reactor, or the bat symbol. Does this walking dead character have those same type of eye catching parts of her?

This is more akin to a white guy dressing up as Luke Cage. Nobody is going to know who he is without asking.

I know right

 

[xBladeM6x]

Not a single point relates to the cosplay in the OP. Blackface IS racist. This cosplay isn't blackface.

Pretty much how I feel.

Why does she have to paint herself black

She didn't have to. She did so the cosplay was more accurate to the character.

 

[Mesousa]

What? She's trying to look like her.. She's emulating the facial details of the character.

That nose looks nothing like the original actress nose. It looks more like it was done in a quick "lol round bantu nose" type of way.

 

[Ravensmash]

Yup, this exactly.

Don't. Fucking. Do. It.

I really would like to think that society can separate disgusting offensive stereotypes and merely changing skin tone to imitate a character that someone obviously loves.

I don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun) as some of you like to believe.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Maybe they did, but they certainly didn't have the same cultural impact over here than they do in the US. Nobody knows wtf a minstrel show is on this side of the ocean, and if I weren't browsing Neogaf I wouldn't either. So it would be hard for anybody in Europe to make the relation between black makeup and a show that aired half a century ago in a foreign country.

Blackface was popular in the UK long after it fell out of favor in the US. There was a minstrel show in 1978 on UK television...

 

[ElFly]

Ah the famous picture of Eva Braun that every European has on their wall to be reminded what Blackface is.
Touche, nice find.

Well it's harder to find photographs of the dutch slave trade effects to explain to you why zwarte piet is racist but please go on.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

So many bleeding hearts in this thread getting offended by people being offended. Ugh.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

That nose looks nothing like the original actress nose. It looks more like it was done in a quick "lol round bantu nose" type of way.

So if she was more skilled and the nose was more accurate you'd be OK with it?

 

[Frog-fu]

People offended by this should look up what actual blackface looks like instead of flipping shit over harmless cosplay. It's not like her depiction is a caricature or stereotype.

She set out to look like Michionne.

She looks like Michionne.

She loves her hobby and is dedicated to it. I say more power to her, and to anyone else that wants to look as close the real thing as possible, so long as it's tastefully done, obviously, which I believe this is.

 

[Parallax]

I know what you're saying, but

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


OT: dressing up as Cpt America, or Iron Man is a different league than Michonne. These are two well known characters from popular comics and movies, the other is a popular character from a TV show not everyone watches. The example of the caucasian Michonne doesn't really apply, because she's carrying two zombie-cosplayers with her. Without the two zombies, she'd be a white girl in rags rocking dreads. Maybe this German chick doesn't have friends who like to be chained up and dragged around all night?

If a person doesnt watch the show, they arent going to get the costume anyway, so what does blackening the skin do? Her costume is distinctive that anyone whos a fan will recognize who she is regardless of skin color

 

[Nev]

Don't wear makeup to look black, this isn't a hard concept to grasp people. Though you may not see it as racist, it is 100% offensive to black people, myself included. Just saying "my intentions are good" isn't good enough.

And who are you exactly to claim that?

Just asked two black friends (they're not American, they're from Equatorial Guinea). I just told them "this white girl likes to cosplay as TV characters and she painted her skin black to cosplay Michonne from TWD, they're labeling her as racist, what do you think?" and sent them the image.

Both of them told me it's not racist and it's not offensive to them. One of them told me "when you portray someone it means you admire or feel identified with that character or person or you like something about them. Unless she's made a derogatory remark, it's not racist; people are alert for everything.

I have the whatsapp conversation screenshot for whoever might think I made it up (I'm counting on someone thinking it).

 

[Alucrid]

Well it's harder to find photographs of the dutch slave trade effects to explain to you why zwarte piet is racist but please go on.

that's because the transatlantic slave trade never happened

 

[SummitAve]

Why does she have to paint herself black

Attention.

 

[Sephzilla]

I know right

Real talk - I probably wouldn't know who that is at first glance without asking. But this is also partially because my mind thinks of this Luke Cage before the older version of Cage

 

[DarkKyo]

I think she could have easily done the same costume but dropped the blackface. It's just not necessary imo.

 

[KlotePino]

Why on earth would you think calling out racism is racist in the first place?

I just remember seeing this weird video, just found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XURRzofbMc0. I'm not saying what he did was ok, but somehow I liked the idea that the guy was so unaware and naive of all the racial controversy that he thought it would be ok to say this because he considered himself equal and just wanted to fit in. I can't really put my finger on it and I know that this is not a well thought out argument but I just instinctively feel that by excessively calling racism without it having any real basis except that's it's just "not-done" in current society could be harmful. I really hope I'm not offending anybody here, I just want to learn more about this and if there is a real basis for why this is racist then I'll gladly accept that.

 

[Slayven]

If a person doesnt watch the show, they arent going to get the costume anyway, so what does blackening the skin do? Her costume is distinctive that anyone whos a fan will recognize who she is regardless of skin color

*mic drop*

 

[ElFly]

that's because the transatlantic slave trade never happened

I love you, man.

 

[Souldriver]

You can cosplay whatever character you want just don't try to change your race in order to do so.

Especially considering when the cosplay community does have a racism problem aimed primarily at black cosplayers.

It's sad that there is an apparent racism problem in the cosplay community, but banning cosplay that includes altering skin color because of that seems like ignoring the issue altogether, and doing a disservice to both people fighting against racism and dedicated cosplayers.

 

[……forgetit]

People offended by this should look up what actual blackface looks like instead of flipping shit over harmless cosplay. It's not like her depiction is a caricature or stereotype.

She out to look like Michionne.

She looks like Michionne.

More power to her.

I know the history and what it originally looked like, and as a black man, it's still offensive.

 

[AkuMifune]

Yup, this exactly.

Don't. Fucking. Do. It.

Cosigned. Sorry kids. She can be Michonne without the cosmetic "touches". It's not racist, but insensitive and in 2014, you just don't do it. It's ignorant.

Does it suck you can't cosplay as someone of another race? Yes, sorry. Get over it.

 

[rezuth]

That nose looks nothing like the original actress nose. It looks more like it was done in a quick "lol round bantu nose" type of way.

If that's how you choose to interpret that it says more about you than her.

 

[harSon]

Outside of the fact that it's racist and in poor taste, there's a reason you don't see black people cosplaying as white characters by painting themselves white: https://www.google.com/search?q=bla...&dpr=1.75#tbm=isch&q=black+cosplayer&imgdii=_

It's because it looks fucking stupid, and there's more to a character than their fucking skin color.

 

[Mesousa]

Ah the famous picture of Eva Braun that every European has on their wall to be reminded what Blackface is.
Touche, nice find.

It is all about knowing history. American popular culture was so widespread even at that point that even local culture was not immune to the influence.


The woman laying up with Hitler loving fucking al Jolson enough to cosplay as his terribly offensive black stereotype character is more than enough proof that this sick culture was more than present in Germany too.

 

[Malyse]

Fine. I'll play along modbot.

Blackface:

Started at a time when Black people were considered “Less than human”

Shows Black people have no and deserve no dignity

Used as a “Set up” to the joke (I’s gon sing you’s perty white folks a song tu-day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfiNT6AKG0s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

Used to de-humanize, belittle and make fun of those that are “Less than”

Originally done by white people for white people

Originally done by white people in white only establishments

Originally a degrading visual joke (Ha! Ha! Look at me, I’m one of THEM! Yuck!)

By design, was to not only laugh at but show what niggers were REALLY like
http://www.blackculturalstudies.org/m_diawara/blackface.html

Caused (and continues to cause) pain to Black people

Made black people into caricatures (not human, a symbol to belittle)

Unable to count how many times done. Not just a joke, or party trick. Actually part of history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C45g3YP7JOk

A sign of racism
http://black-face.com

http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/18422652908/black-face-vs-white-face-whats-the-difference

MORE TO READ!

https://storify.com/TOMolefe/do-not-tolerate-blackface

It all seems to revolve around this attitude:

What’s so wrong with a bit of fancy dress?

What’s so wrong about white, privileged students who belong to a country with a history of systematic oppression of black people and other non-white races, mocking the very people who have most felt and are still feeling the lingering effects of apartheid?

What’s so wrong about women who, due to factors they have no control over, have had access to resources, support, and education opportunities that helped them become students in a University; mocking women who, due to factors they have no control over, did not have the same opportunities and have had to become domestic workers just to get by?

What’s so wrong about well-off people making fun of people who are less well-off?

What’s so wrong about white women turning a black woman’s appearance into a caricature?

In a world where beauty is so thoroughly anglicized and whitewashed, dark-skinned women feel a constant pressure to try look as close to white as possible, what’s so wrong with white women actively mocking the bodies of black women?

What’s so wrong with privileged white women, in South Africa, in this world, with this world’s history and historical treatment of black people, treating black women as comedic, a joke, a funny fancy dress?

It should be glaringly obvious what’s wrong.

Blackface, especially in this country, especially with our history, says, louder than words:

We think you’re a novelty. We think you’re a joke. We do not consider you’re worthy of respect. We do not think your feelings matter, or need to be considered. We do not view you as our equals.

Even now, we view you as beneath us. We view you as our entertainment, our slaves, our toys, to mock and imitate while you clean up for us.

If we upset you, if we hurt you, if oppress you, tough. We will tell you to "get over it". We will tell you it's "just a joke", because we consider everything, even bad jokes, more valuable than your thoughts, than your emotions, than your well-being, and than you.

If you dare to complain, we will remind you of that as loudly and offensively as we can.

There really is a mind-numbing obliviousness that comes with privilege, and this reaction, this wide-eyed “what’s the big problem?” response, is the perfect example of that.

http://www.women24.com/Wellness/BodyAndSpirit/Why-blackface-is-offensive-20140806

"what makes it so wrong is "wearing it as a costume, to demonstrate that XYZ culture is so “other” (i.e. removed from everyday life) that it is Halloween costume fodder in the same way space aliens and fairy tale character princesses are Halloween costume fodder"

"By partaking in something like this, you dehumanize an entire culture and society by trivializing “palatable” portions of their experience into a costume. Whatever prejudices the costumed culture deals with is ignored because at the end of the night, you shed that skin. You are choosing to ignore that your costume *does* have context. Other people will not ignore it. PEOPLE AND CULTURES ARE NOT COSTUMES."

http://socialjusticechandlers.blogspot.com/2013/10/blackface-and-racism-school.html

And to finish:

Just in case you were unsure, a few guidelines for confused white people:

• When POC tell you that a thing is racist, you take them at their word.
  
• When POC tell you that a thing is racist, you do not tell them that they’re being oversensitive. It’s far, far more likely that you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Since they live with racism every day, they know more about it than you do.
  
• If POC tell you a thing you did was racist, and if they are not sweet and polite about it, you don’t get to stomp off in a huff over your hurt fee-fees. You did a racist thing. People are well within their rights to be mad at you.
  
• Intent is not magic. Not intending to be racist does not make a thing not racist. If I don’t mean to stand on your toe, but my foot is still on your toe, your toe is still going to hurt like hell. I don’t get to talk about how I didn’t mean to step on you without moving my foot.
  
• Being gay/a woman/trans/disabled/working class and/or a member of any other marginalised group does not grant you a Get Out Of Racism Free card. This is the real world, not Monopoly. Oppression of one kind doesn’t magically make you incapable of being an asshat towards others.
  
• By the way, doing a racist thing doesn’t magically turn you into a Nazi fascist KKK’er. It means you are a human person who did a thing you shouldn’t have done. If you’re not an ass about it, it doesn’t have to be the world’s biggest deal.
  
• If you find out that a thing you did was racist, then the appropriate response is to apologise and stop doing that thing. Once you’ve stopped doing the thing, if you’re confused about why that thing was racist you can use this marvellous tool to find out why. You don’t get to go bothering the person who you’ve just been racist at about that racist thing you did. That’s just rude.
  

Wasn’t that easy?

And remember it is (generally) okay to dress as easily recognized as characters or individuals (e.g. mulan, obama) but that it is unnecessary to change skin tone to do so.

If you still don't get it after all that, well.
Time to go back to school.

Oh and to be clear, reverse racism is not a real thing.

 

[Ushojax]

so are you offended by this? or does your opinion just extend to white people?

(just to clarify i think Chappelle is amazing)

That's clearly satire, though. Chapelle is mocking the absurd concept of 'blacking up'.

 

[MarauderShields]

People still don't know what blackface is? Because this isn't it.

 

[Frog-fu]

I know the history and what it originally looked like, and as a black man, it's still offensive.

As a black man myself, I strongly disagree with you.

 

[Arjen]

Well it's harder to find photographs of the dutch slave trade effects to explain to you why zwarte piet is racist but please go on.

I don't know what you're getting at?
My point is that people in Europe fail to see racsim in things like this because they are not aware of what blackface is. You don't have to convince me the image of Zwarte Piet should change.

 

[Slayven]

Real talk - I probably wouldn't know who that is at first glance without asking. But this is also partially because my mind thinks of this Luke Cage before the older version of Cage

 

[rezuth]

Outside of the fact that it's racist and in poor taste, there's a reason you don't see black people cosplaying as white characters by painting themselves white: https://www.google.com/search?q=bla...&dpr=1.75#tbm=isch&q=black+cosplayer&imgdii=_

It's because it looks fucking stupid, and there's more to a character than their fucking skin color.

Sure there is more to a character but cosplay is about mimicking the looks of a character.

 

[Mesousa]

So if she was more skilled and the nose was more accurate you'd be OK with it?

I would be more impressed by it.

 

[……forgetit]

And who are you exactly to claim that?

Just asked two black friends (they're not American, they're from Equatorial Guinea). I just told them "this white girl likes to cosplay as TV characters and she painted her skin black to cosplay Michonne from TWD, they're labeling her as racist, what do you think?" and sent them the image.

Both of them told me it's not racist and it's not offensive to them. One of them told me "when you portray someone it means you admire or feel identified with that character or person or you like something about them. Unless she's made a derogatory remark, it's not racist; people are alert for everything.

I have the whatsapp conversation screenshot for whoever thinks I'm making this up (I'm counting on it).

Finding black people okay with something doesn't discount something from being offensive when the vast majority of black people wouldn't be okay with it. I have no doubt that you can find some black people to say "eh we don't mind."

 

[trineo_feo]

Correct, it's never okay to change the color of your skin to simulate a different ethnicity IMO.

This is beyond stupid.

 

[Trickster]

I really don't see what the negative thing about changing your appearance to match another race is if it's clearly not done in a racist fashion. Seems like dumb modern political correctness...

 

[harSon]

People still don't know what blackface is? Because this isn't it.

Like most things in existence, its meaning morphed alongside the new realities of society.

 

[Htown]

I'd believe you guys actually cared about the technicalities of the different degrees of blackface, but I've seen too many Zwarte Piet threads for that shit to fly.

 

[Arjen]

It is all about knowing history. American popular culture was so widespread even at that point that even local culture was not immune to the influence.


The woman laying up with Hitler loving fucking al Jolson enough to cosplay as his terribly offensive black stereotype character is more than enough proof that this sick culture was more than present in Germany too.

I agree with you that people should and could know about it.
Hard reality is that they don't.

 

[Interfectum]

So many bleeding hearts in this thread getting offended by people being offended. Ugh.

I can see where people have a problem with what the cosplayer did. Especially people from the US. That being said, I'm actually offended by people labeling her a racist. By throwing the word "racist" around like this people are making the word weak and meaningless. Also anyone calling this "black face" should probably look up what that actually is.

 

[Alx]

Minstrel shows existing in the UK (which is part of this side of the ocean). We also have our own taboo called a Golliwog, which is a infamous doll that has a black face with piercing white eye, giant red lips and fuzzy black hair. Black caricatures existed over here and are not a US only thing.

Blackface was popular in the UK long after it fell out of favor in the US. There was a minstrel show in 1978 on UK television...

Well in that case I suppose we can consider the UK does share the same sensibilities about painting your face black as the US (which is all the more unknown to other Europeans).
Of course black caricatures (and other caricatures) existed everywhere, but the association of black makeup and racism only exists because of minstrel shows, and thus isn't relevant in all places where those shows are barely known.

 

[hughesta]

It's not racist, but it is ignorant. Don't wear blackface in 2014.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Why isn't this blackface?