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[Zen_Arcade]

People of all races are not a hivemind but when someone tells you something offends them, you don't lecture them about why they shouldn't be. You don't have that right.

You should respect their opinion.

I don't see why offense is the only thing that people don't have to back up with reasoning. It seems to be the only subject where people can try and shut down an argument and don't need a defense of their opinion to do so.

You shouldn't simply respect someone's opinion of being offended if you can offer up points of why they're offended is illogical or misplaced. It should be treated like any other emotion.

 

[DY_nasty]

I'm glad more are separating intent now at least

Nobody has once said why to me. Stop passing the buck around. Nobody can explain how my logic is circular because it isn't. Either show me how it is or stop trying to claim somebody did already when they didn't. It's lazy to stack my argument and pretend somebody else explained why.

crying

 

[Mighty Chin]

No one said that for the billionth time. Just don't darken your skin.

People should just Cosplay to 90% of its potential?

 

[freeofgreed]

In an ideal world, sure it's best no one gets offended. We don't live in such a world. People get offended by seemingly (in my opinion) absolutely inane things.

Why do you get to decide what others should be able to find offensive?

 

[Camp Lo]

crying

I can't stop facepalming.

 

[DY_nasty]

I don't see why offense is the only thing that people don't have to back up with reasoning. It seems to be the only subject where people can try and shut down an argument and don't need a defense of their opinion to do so.

You shouldn't simply respect someone's opinion of being offended if you can offer up points of why they're offended is illogical or misplaced. It should be treated like any other emotion.

Because to many its common sense.

 

[Anustart]

Why do you get to decide what others should be able to find offensive?

Where did I say I choose?

 

[Two Words]

I'm glad more are separating intent now at least

crying

How is my logic circular?

 

[Spoo]

My argument is just based on utility, really. If there's an option that has some chance of offending someone, and another option that has basically no chance of offending someone, why pick the one that can (and most surely will) hurt others?

If it's on the basis of accuracy, I've argued accuracy doesn't matter. If it did, fat people cosplaying wouldn't cosplay thin people, most black people wouldn't cosplay (because you need a lot of black characters to choose from, and they are not well represented in a lot of fiction, especially anime), and in general you would see... a lot less cosplay. Accuracy matters to a degree (it should be, like Halloween, obvious what you are trying to do), but what you are trying to do matters. If you are trying something that was a bad thing to do yesterday, don't be surprised when people today call you out on it.

And if you are completely unapologetic about it, don't be surprised when they call you an insensitive asshole.

 

[freeofgreed]

People should just Cosplay to 90% of its potential?

So being able to cosplay to full extent is worth using a racist caricature?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I didn't know the blue people from Avatar actually existed and have had a long history of discrimination on this planet. Totally comparable...

Blue, purple, orange..BLACK, all the same.

 

[ishibear]

Saying you are offended doesn't entitle you to respect of it. It's not an argument stopper. Somebody can argue why they think your offense is misplaced.

In regards to sensitive topics like racism and even sexism, yes it does.

Clearly someone who knows shit about racism is not qualified to tell anyone why they should or should not be offended.

 

[DY_nasty]

I haven't seen a single argument coming from you other than saying this is "progressive blackface" and that's it.

Oh really?

For starters, why did I call it progressive blackface?

You can even cheat and use my own posts.

 

[Acerac]

I thought blackface was when somebody put on makeup to stereotype black people with hugely exaggerated features. I can't imagine that was the intent of this costume.

 

[Two Words]

In regards to sensitive topics like racism and even sexism, yes it does.

Clearly someone who knows shit about racism is not qualified to tell anyone why they should or should not be offended.

Just handle the discussion respectably.

 

[Einbroch]

This girl might not be the best example, but if you're cosplaying as your favorite character out of respect and admiration, I don't know that I see a problem (personally, of course).

Take her out of the equation and put a level-headed person on her place, I think I'd be okay with it. You might not be, and that's okay. Would I personally do it? Probably not. It's not worth upsetting a group of people just so my cosplay could be 100% accurate. That's just not worth it to me, but I don't fault both sides for their opinions if they feel strongly about them.

 

[freeofgreed]

Where did I say I choose?

Ok so if you're not deciding what people can't find offensive, why are you so mad that people are taking offense to this?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I thought blackface was when somebody put on makeup to stereotype black people with hugely exaggerated features. I can't imagine that was the intent of this costume.

I thought blackface was when someone painted their face black.

 

[bishoptl]

Yes, but if people can't up with evidence to why it's offensive people are allowed to discount your opinion on the subject.

Then you haven't been reading the thread. You may want to hold off on additional commentary until you do.

 

[ishibear]

I don't see why offense is the only thing that people don't have to back up with reasoning. It seems to be the only subject where people can try and shut down an argument and don't need a defense of their opinion to do so.

You shouldn't simply respect someone's opinion of being offended if you can offer up points of why they're offended is illogical or misplaced. It should be treated like any other emotion.

No one can tell a person of another race why they should or should not be offended by something.

Especially not with black people in regards to this.

 

[DrForester]

Context is something that seems to be ignored in some cases of racist accusations.

This was not racist.

 

[Unbounded]

Eh, don't really see the issue. She did a pretty solid job. She's still working on it, right?

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I thought blackface was when someone painted their face black.

Ignorance..

 

[kame-sennin]

no

Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. Some people can enjoy and aprecieate other cultures and ethnicities and be happy when others experience theirs, instead of having militant attitude towards anyone from outside trying to dip their toes in. You're just projecting your own prejudices into the whole world.

I'm glad we know where you stand. I'm glad that after Europe colonized us, enslaved us, segregated us, mocked our racial features, made us hate the texture of our hair and the color of our skin, told us our culture was primitive and backwards, that NOW - YOU get to decide that you can 'tastefully' parade around in our features like it's a fucking costume. I'm glad I have YOU to tell ME what is and is not an offensive use of my skin. You, who can put the make up on and take it off whenever you want to. Why should I be the authority just because I can never take my skin off, just because I must live with my skin and the consequences it brings me. Who is a better judge of how black skin can be used than white people? Never mind the fact that we have told you we find it offensive, hurtful, and degrading. I know the feelings of others would never be enough to settle the issue. Instead, people of color have to prove why our skin - our degraded, criticized, marginalized skin - should not be used as a playful costume. We have to prove this to you, even though your mind is already made up.

But now I get it. We are not allowed to be offended - to 'bitch and moan' - when you tell us over and over and over again that our skin is not good enough.

And we are also not allowed to be offended when you dress in our skin because, hey, you're just "enjoying" our skin. Please, continue to assert your claims of ownership of my skin so I can check you off as entitled, privileged, ignorant, and hateful.

 

[Anustart]

Ok so if you're not deciding what people can't find offensive, why are you so mad that people are taking offense to this?

Where am I getting mad? And if I am, why are you seemingly getting upset that your opinion is more valid than mine?

 

[Mighty Chin]

So being able to cosplay to full extent is worth using a racist caricature?

It's not a racist caricature though.

Painting your skin colour and Black Face are two completely different things.

 

[……forgetit]

People should just Cosplay to 90% of its potential?

Yes? If the choice is between changing your skin tone and being less accurate, then be less accurate.

 

[blitzcloud]

I didn't know the blue people from Avatar actually existed and have had a long history of discrimination on this planet. Totally comparable...

Considering it was an analogy of native america in space, would you refuse the right of people to be offended at it?

 

[Acerac]

I thought blackface was when someone painted their face black.

You're prolly right. I thought it was offensive because of the reasons I listed... though she did go overboard on the nose.

 

[Kid Ska]

It's funny reading this thread all morning and seeing no progress made in either direction.

 

[DY_nasty]

How is my logic circular?

Do you know what a circular argument is? You're on lap 3 right now. And in one of my very first responses to you I told you exactly where you were going.

Either put me on ignore and stop pretending to read my posts or actually read them in the first place.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Because to many its common sense.

And in this thread you've had multiple people from different races pointing out that this is not a matter of common sense. There are obviously differing opinions on the subject.

There are many many times when people over react or get offended for either no reason, or because of a misunderstanding. I don't think it's healthy for society to just let the word "Offended" become a conversation stopper.

Then you haven't been reading the thread. You may want to hold off on additional commentary until you do.

I was speaking in generalities, not about this thread specifically.

 

[Kathian]

Ignorance..

Cultural ignorance. For many this is the definition of black face; blacking up being racist but for different reasons.

 

[Mighty Chin]

I thought blackface was when someone painted their face black.

Nope

I thought blackface was when somebody put on makeup to stereotype black people with hugely exaggerated features. I can't imagine that was the intent of this costume.

Yup

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

No it's not because it's not blackface. Just like that reality show/ experiment that had a black family and a white family switch places to see how different their experiences would be in the world.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Nope



Yup

Not really.

 

[besada]

And in this thread you've had multiple people from different races pointing out that this is not a matter of common sense. There are obviously differing opinions on the subject.

There are many many times when people over react or get offended for either no reason, or because of a misunderstanding. I don't think it's healthy for society to just let the word "Offended" become a conversation stopper.

Well, you're welcome to waste your time attempting to objectively argue an entirely subjective emotional response if you want to, but it's not going to get you anywhere. The entire idea that you are capable of deciding what the correct response is to this event suggests you don't understand how people work.

But feel free to beat your head against a wall if that entertains you.

 

[Two Words]

Do you know what a circular argument is? You're on lap 3 right now. And in one of my very first responses to you I told you exactly where you were going.

Either put me on ignore and stop pretending to read my posts or actually read them in the first place.

You have not once explained or shown it is circular. Again, nobody is willing to back up their claims. Is it so hard to say how it is circular? You're not too busy to respond, obviously.

 

[freeofgreed]

Where am I getting mad? And if I am, why are you seemingly getting upset that your opinion is more valid than mine?

What are you even talking about?

It's not a racist caricature though.

Painting your skin colour and Black Face are two completely different things.

Fair enough, but it is very close and it is condemed enough that it should be common sense not to do it.

Considering it was an analogy of native america in space, would you refuse the right of people to be offended at it?

Again not comparable. Avatar is a work of fiction. Please stop trying to compare aliens to black people.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Cultural ignorance. For many this is the definition of black face; blacking up being racist but for different reasons.

Oh, I know. Just been seeing the word ignorant thrown around a lot if you find ANYTHING racist, blackface.. whatever. Also, I'm being transformed into a white basement dweller who lives with ma Mable..not sure if people actually think before they hit post.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Oh really?

For starters, why did I call it progressive blackface?

You can even cheat and use my own posts.

... so, talking about your facts with your own posts is cheating?

Progressive blackface should be an obvious joke - like, she's not being outright disgustingly racist in her action. Its "good" blackface. The best kind of ignorance. One solid step from being okay and too many and far enough away from the immediately abrasive kind.

Progressive

And I'm not upset so much as I feel the need to vocally roll my eyes when I see people lead off with " as a black person, I carry THIS uncommon opinion" while every black should know right out the gate that the world loves seeing us all as one in the same regardless.

Not only do you say that's she is openly racist, but she's attempting to hide how racist it is. As if she was looking down on the character she wishes to portray? Is her intent missing at all then? Nope, not even that:

She's really just actively displaying ignorance. And that's no huge thing - but again, the threat of being called racist is worse than actually being racist. Her not giving a fuck instead of pulling up or AT LEAST trying to not be blatant joke with that nose only serves to ruffle more feathers.

So, you're mad at her being under attack and thus getting on the defensive instead of being genuienly sorry for her "blackface"? Some people state here they don't believe what she's doing is blackface. You don't care, for you, it IS, and you start going from there. Am I missing something here?

Why is this blackface? It isn't trying to demean or make fun of a black person. It's not trying to use the ethnicity as the costume (it's only half done) and even if it isn't perfect (the nose and eyes need some work) it's obvious this is trying to replicate as closely as possible the character from the show.

 

[Valhelm]

Don't do blackface. This person certainly didn't mean wrong, but blackface has such a nasty history that it would offend a lot of people.

 

[DY_nasty]

And in this thread you've had multiple people from different races pointing out that this is not a matter of common sense. There are obviously differing opinions on the subject.

There are many many times when people over react or get offended for either no reason, or because of a misunderstanding. I don't think it's healthy for society to just let the word "Offended" become a conversation stopper.

Common sense to the people who are actually offended. Trying to explain why your very appearance being turned into pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things to someone who's already decided that there is no issue is a bridge to cross if nothing else. To me and many others, its common sense. To you, well.... You've never had to give a damn.

I should 've elaborated

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Don't do blackface. This person certainly didn't mean wrong, but blackface has such a nasty history that it would offend a lot of people.

And this, folks, is a reasonable post.

 

[mullet2000]

I don't really see this as the same thing as "blackface". Blackface was used to overly exaggerate features for 'comedy'. It often involved painting giant red lips on your face as well, for example.

In this case though the girl just seems to be attempting to get the cosplay as accurate as possible. I can see why it would give people a shock or an initial bad reaction (it gave me one too) but I think putting this in the same category as traditional blackface is pretty disingenuous.

That said I p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y definitely wouldn't have done it because of the shit-storm it creates.

 

[Brakke]

Context is something that seems to be ignored in some cases of racist accusations.

This was not racist.

"Context", that vaunted silver bullet.

So what is the alleviating context then? Offer your reading, please. There are a zillion ways to contextualize this. If, say, you contextualize it against minstrelsy and cultural appropriation and other ugly traditions, wedding blackface sucks. Why context do you see and why do you think it should override the other?

 

[Acerac]

Apologies if this was answered somewhere in the last ten pages, but does anyone mind telling me why this is inherently offensive? This makeup was done not to mock the character, but to pay tribute to it. I can understand if the cosplayer was trying to make a mockery of the character in question, but she seems to have crafted it with respect.

Is it offensive because people have painted themselves black to mock others? Does the intent not matter? I can understand there being a link, like when people say something is gay to mean it's negative, but as this costume seems to have no negative intent behind it, I admit I'm confused.

Don't do blackface. This person certainly didn't mean wrong, but blackface has such a nasty history that it would offend a lot of people.

This makes sense. As she has no real way to prove her lack of ill intent it would have been wiser to avoid breaching the subject altogether. Cultural ignorance and whatnot, though I don't know if she should be fed to the dogs for it...

 

[mhs004]

When I think something is racist I think of a action meant to hurt another race emotionally or physically. I don't see that hear just someone dressing up as her physical character.

Now she probably should have known that this is not acceptable in modern culture and made a bad decision.

Gaf over blowing stuff? Why I NEVER!

 

[DY_nasty]

You have not once explained or shown it is circular. Again, nobody is willing to back up their claims. Is it so hard to say how it is circular? You're not too busy to respond, obviously.

Everyone is dumber than you.

Obviously

 

[Two Words]

Common sense to the people who are actually offended. Trying to explain why your very appearance being turned into pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things to someone who's already decided that there is no issue is a bridge to cross if nothing else. To me and many others, its common sense. To you, well.... You've never had to give a damn.

I should 've elaborated

You're simply claiming the default opinion arbitrarily.