Support NeoGAF

[Akainu]

On the subject; Did people/anyone find this racist in Tropic Thunder? Never heard any controversy or blackface comments regarding it.

Are you real? It was constantly brought up in the film as stupid.

 

[pants]

Is this a bad cosplay, because he didn't paint his skin lighter?

Haha, I thought he was gokuh

 

[……forgetit]

I think context needs to be brought into this. The way I grew up for example, being a coon is a desirable thing, blackface is a celebration of being free of slavery (appropriated from Americans). In the same way I feel that this chick in the OP wasnt even trying to be a racist ahole, if she was walking around looking like Mr. Popo though, we'd all know whats going on. Growing up like I did, blackface isnt offensive off the bat until context makes it obvious it's done in a way to belittle people of colour.

I........did you really just say that?

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

How hard is it to understand that blackface is racist? Ya'll should watch Dear White People.

 

[Camp Lo]

A lot of people in this thread remind me of the whole Redskins thing. For some reason, non-Native Americans feel like they should be able to tell Native Americans what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Same thing here. A lot of non-blacks feel like they should be able to tell blacks what they should and shouldn't be offended by. As I've said, a person's race shouldn't be a part of a costume.

As a white guy, you can dress up as Nick Fury or Morpheus without having to paint yourself black just like a black guy can dress up as Elvis or Superman without painting himself white. I'm not gonna cut off my dick, tape/glue my eyes, and let my hair grow out extremely long to cosplay as some anime chick. The point is, you're emulate the character, not the race of the person playing the character. Goddamn gaf is dumb sometimes.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

I didn't realize what she was doing was satire.

I wasn't talking about the cosplayer.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Haha, I thought he was gokuh

That was my first thought

 

[Anustart]

How hard is it to understand that blackface is racist? Ya'll should watch Dear White People.

It isn't hard to understand that blackface is racist. It's difficult to understand why this is blackface. Two completely different things.

 

[……forgetit]

You wouldn't consider the White Like Me sketch okay!? I remember seeing that when I was a kid growing up in hyper-white Iowa when it first aired and it's biting satire opened my eyes to a perspective I had never really considered. If such socially eye-opening content is what the new PC McCathyism is trying to stamp out, then I hope the fad fades soon.


And like I said, I was wondering how quickly the goalposts would be moved from "never" to something other than never. As the record shows, the goalposts were moved in 3 minutes.

Never was an overreaction, I acknowledge that, we've had this conversation like five hours ago though, come on man.

 

[Dice//]

Damn, I was really interested in this topic but...27 pages is a lot to get into right now. Any summary of the haps here?

This isn't black face, or it could be much worse.

Typing "Sazh Cosplay" into google is pretty intersting. A lot of black people cosplay him (being a "good fit" I guess), some whites/Asians who stayed with their paler skin, and some who indeed darkened their skin.

 

[Mighty Chin]

It isn't hard to understand that blackface is racist. It's difficult to understand why this is blackface. Two completely different things.

This is my point of contention.

 

[Kinvara]

I feel the need to post a GOOD cosplay of Michonne:

I'm glad we know where you stand. I'm glad that after Europe colonized us, enslaved us, segregated us, mocked our racial features, made us hate the texture of our hair and the color of our skin, told us our culture was primitive and backwards, that NOW - YOU get to decide that you can 'tastefully' parade around in our features like it's a fucking costume. I'm glad I have YOU to tell ME what is and is not an offensive use of my skin. You, who can put the make up on and take it off whenever you want to. Why should I be the authority just because I can never take my skin off, just because I must live with my skin and the consequences it brings me. Who is a better judge of how black skin can be used than white people? Never mind the fact that we have told you we find it offensive, hurtful, and degrading. I know the feelings of others would never be enough to settle the issue. Instead, people of color have to prove why our skin - our degraded, criticized, marginalized skin - should not be used as a playful costume. We have to prove this to you, even though your mind is already made up.

But now I get it. We are not allowed to be offended - to 'bitch and moan' - when you tell us over and over and over again that our skin is not good enough.

And we are also not allowed to be offended when you dress in our skin because, hey, you're just "enjoying" our skin. Please, continue to assert your claims of ownership of my skin so I can check you off as entitled, privileged, ignorant, and hateful.

A lot of people in this thread remind me of the whole Redskins thing. For some reason, non-Native Americans feel like they should be able to tell Native Americans what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Same thing here. A lot of non-blacks feel like they should be able to tell blacks what they should and shouldn't be offended by. As I've said, a person's race shouldn't be a part of a costume.

As a white guy, you can dress up as Nick Fury or Morpheus without having to paint yourself black just like a black guy can dress up as Elvis or Superman without painting himself white. I'm not gonna cut off my dick, tape/glue my eyes, and let my hair grow out extremely long to cosplay as some anime chick. The point is, you're emulate the character, not the race of the person playing the character. Goddamn gaf is dumb sometimes.

Very good posts.

 

[SuicidalSteve]

So would anyone find this racist?

 

[Corronchilejano]

It isn't hard to understand that blackface is racist. It's difficult to understand why this is blackface. Two completely different things.

I've asked this quite a bit, and have gotten no answer.

 

[Aselith]

I don't see this as racist, at least not intentionally so. She's evidently trying to faithfully recreate a character she likes, not turn her into a caricature.

Except the nose.

 

[Camp Lo]

This is my point of contention.

I wonder if it was this much contention during the Crazy Eyes incident. I don't think I was around when that shit hit the fan.

 

[Acerac]

Damn, I was really interested in this topic but...27 pages is a lot to get into right now. Any summary of the haps here?

This isn't black face, or it could be much worse.

Typing "Sazh Cosplay" into google is pretty intersting. A lot of black people cosplay him (being a "good fit" I guess), some whites/Asians who stayed with their paler skin, and some who indeed darkened their skin.

The white people and asians who kept their skin color shouldn't have bothered. Not saying they should have used makeup, but they look embarrassing.

 

[Hypron]

I just don't understand why she or some people think she has to be black to be accurate in cosplay. I've been able to be white characters just fine without changing my skin. People did'nt have trouble knowing who I was.

Some people want to look as close to the character they want to cosplay as possible: the objective is not just to be recognizable. If you're not aware of what blackface stands for, painting your skin might feel like going the extra mile.

 

[Courage]

So would anyone find this racist?

Considering there isn't a historical phenomenon known as "whiteface," no.

But it's unfunny and stupid.

 

[Curiocity]

When other races cosplay white characters, their skin is never painted white.

There's a fairly internet-famous Daenerys cosplayer whose ethnic background is "wrong" for the character; she uses makeup to pale her skin and does it very well.
As for skin color not being part of a character's costume, that's bs to me. Every aspect of a character's visual make-up is part of that character. Sometimes I would argue skin color and racial features are integral.

Doing something like sculpting your nose with makeup to resemble an ethnically different nose isn't racist. Saying so implies there's something bad about that nose type that shouldn't be imitated. Why is it safer to have a spray tan but a "white"-shaped nose? Is it also wrong to have contacts or contoured brows?

If the Na'vi get to have blue skin as part of their costume, what about the Simpsons? Is it okay to make fictional characters in any other way? Is Cirque du Soleil limited to every color of the rainbow except brown and caucasian variants because they have a group of similar-looking characters but performers of different ethnicities?

If anything, cosplay is giving us a chance to redefine and redeem an aspect of theatrical show that has (sometimes, and not universally) been used for bad.

 

[freeofgreed]

Damn, I was really interested in this topic but...27 pages is a lot to get into right now. Any summary of the haps here?

This isn't black face, or it could be much worse.

Typing "Sazh Cosplay" into google is pretty intersting. A lot of black people cosplay him (being a "good fit" I guess), some whites/Asians who stayed with their paler skin, and some who indeed darkened their skin.

This is suppose to be Sazh? Omg really? I never would've guessed. Dude really should took a tar bath before putting on that costume cause it's quite terrible.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Damn..the White Chicks circle is complete. Wonder how many pages until it pops up again..

 

[AkuMifune]

I wasn't talking about the cosplayer.

No, you were trying to highlight how quickly you could get people to shift their stance by providing a select example or two that highlight a logical fallacy. But satire doesn't count, and that's not what she was attempting, either.

 

[mentallyinept]

A lot of people in this thread remind me of the whole Redskins thing. For some reason, non-Native Americans feel like they should be able to tell Native Americans what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Same thing here. A lot of non-blacks feel like they should be able to tell blacks what they should and shouldn't be offended by. As I've said, a person's race shouldn't be a part of a costume.

As a white guy, you can dress up as Nick Fury or Morpheus without having to paint yourself black just like a black guy can dress up as Elvis or Superman without painting himself white. I'm not gonna cut off my dick, tape/glue my eyes, and let my hair grow out extremely long to cosplay as some anime chick. The point is, you're emulate the character, not the race of the person playing the character. Goddamn gaf is dumb sometimes.

You can cosplay without matching skin tone, but I don't think it's inherently racist just because you do. That's where context and execution come into play.

IMO, if your makeup chops are so good that you can make yourself look extremely close to the characters skin tone, then it's probably OK. If you aren't that good and resort to cheap, exaggerated, and stereotypical representation of the characters race, then you are playing with fire.

 

[……forgetit]

This is suppose to be Sazh? Omg really? I never would've guessed. Dude really should took a tar bath before putting on that costume cause it's quite terrible.

Are you freaking serious right now?

 

[pants]

I........did you really just say that?

Yes mate, the world is a big place.

 

[freeofgreed]

Are you freaking serious right now?

No I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic but I guess not.

 

[Acerac]

I've asked this quite a bit, and have gotten no answer.

As far as I've been able to gather it's not that this costume is blackface in and of itself, it's that seeing it reminds people of that ugly period of history. While imitation may be the most sincere form of flattery, many have had a different context.

It's less that this is blackface, and more that it reminds people of it, and nobody needs old wounds aggravated.

 

[Samara]

I feel the need to post a GOOD cosplay of Michonne:

Very good posts.

Well yeah, she's the exact same color as Michonne.
It's like posting a pic of a good Cinderella cosplay with a blond white woman.

 

[Mighty Chin]

You can cosplay without matching skin tone, but I don't think it's inherently racist just because you do. That's where context and execution come into play.

IMO, if your makeup chops are so good that you can make yourself look extremely close to the characters skin tone, then it's probably OK. If you aren't that good and resort to cheap, exaggerated, and stereotypical representation of the characters race, then you are playing with fire.

This guy gets it

 

[thecouncil]

No I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic but I guess not.

It was pretty clear.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This is suppose to be Sazh? Omg really? I never would've guessed. Dude really should took a tar bath before putting on that costume cause it's quite terrible.

 

[ElTorro]

I just don't understand why she or some people think she has to be black to be accurate in cosplay.

It's frankly a natural thought if you are not aware of the history of blackface.

I honestly would not have thought that there is anything wrong with that. Even though Wikipedia has an example of one blackface-related controversy in Germany, my understanding of that story is that it primarily offended international people. Racism against black people is less prominent in Germany history compare to the US, given that Germany never had a huge population of people with African ethnicity. That does not mean that it never has been (or is currently not) a thing here (the N-word is frowned upon here as well), but it's not as deeply integrated into our cultural awareness as it is in the US.

Conversely, I still cringe when I see an American comedian make some innocent joke about Jews, or when I read the "PC master race" meme here on GAF. It's apparently acceptable in other cultural contexts, but I really doubt that anyone would make such jokes here.

I now understand why painting your face black it is a bad idea. But to be aware of that is a question of cultural background.

 

[……forgetit]

No I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic but I guess not.

You never know sometimes, I've heard plenty of people say similar things and mean it completely seriously.

 

[besada]

Fine, it's subjective. But even in this subjective society you have to prove that what someone did was wrong depending on the situation.

No, you don't. People can be upset about things without providing proof. This is the thing you can't seem to wrap your head around. There is not a list of rules determining what people can or can't be offended by.

I'm ignoring the second half of your post because it literally has nothing to do with what we're discussing. You're attempting to talk about actions and behavior, and this is a discussion about opinions and offense.

Again, do what you want in terms of trying to convince people that their emotional responses are "wrong" but don't be surprised when it doesn't work out well.

 

[Exr]

When it comes to cosplay, there are rarely situations where you end up looking 100% like that character. And that's okay. For people who are from an underrepresented group (like myself), we don't have the option of cosplaying someone from our own race anyway. You do your best on the costume and at portraying the character's mannerisms. At the end of the day, it's your personal spin on that character. That's the point of cosplay.

Human skin tone alterations are unnecessary, problematic, and distracting. Outside of the racial issues, it always looks terrible. The cosplayer in the OP is no exception.

Considering this cosplayer has completely disregarded all criticism doesn't make me view them any more positively.

Thanks for the explanation, I always thought the point of cosplay was to nail the exact look of the character. I didn't consider the personal spin thing....now I can understand why skin tone changes for human characters is not needed. If the execution is done well with regards to the skin tone change would that be acceptable, or do you think it will always be a problematic issue due to the inherit issues with race we have?

 

[Akainu]

Are you freaking serious right now?

~whoosh~

These thread are always the same. This shit is never ok.

 

[lmpaler]

Possibly offensive to sensitive people =/= racist. It makes no sense in the context that this is done with the intent to be offensive.

But I guess I should be really mad at the movie Cloud Atlas.

That's not very racist. I mean, it's not like minstrel show level blackface - she actually put some serious effort in the makeup.

Great cosplay and I'm part black lol. People need to stop being so sensitive as she jsut wanted a faithful recreation of the character she was cosplaying.

Well she's a German artist apparently. "Blackface" isn't an issue anywhere but in America.
Racism is all about meaning and intention. Painting your face black should be considered racist only when it is meant to give a bad image of black people. That's obviously not the case here.

Not in my opinion either. That's not really classic minstrel blackface that is racist, it's a nerd dressing up as a badass zombie slayer.

I think that's quite tastefully done.

Minstrel shows are racist but I don't see anything innately offensive in dressing up as a character from another race. The whole point is making yourself look like someone you're not.

.

 

[……forgetit]

Yes mate, the world is a big place.

I never knew this was a thing, fyi coon is considered a racial slur in the US and is considered worse than the N-word in some circles.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

You never know sometimes, I've heard plenty of people say similar things and mean it completely seriously.

lol.. nah, man. If you were reading his prior post, it wouldn't have crossed your mind that he was serious.

 

[bryehn]

Yes mate, the world is a big place.

I...uh...shit.

I never knew this was a thing, fyi coon is considered a racial slur in the US and is considered worse than the N-word in some circles.

This is how I was raised to treat the term "coon".

 

[……forgetit]

lol.. nah, man. If you were reading his prior post, it wouldn't have crossed your mind that he was serious.

That was the first one of his I read, out of context it can be a wtf moment.

 

[Aselith]

Yes mate, the world is a big place.

There are no raccoons native to Africa. So where did the term come from?

 

[Alucrid]

So would anyone find this racist?

because it was already brought up on the first page

 

[Gordon Shumway]

That was the first one of his I read, out of context it can be a wtf moment.

Certainly..gave me a giggle.

 

[Two Words]

I never implied that. You simply don't know how much worse of an act blackface is. It's why we're talking about it, why it's got a Wiki page, and what it meant for black people during such an oppressive period. Overlooking that is overlooking black history (in America especially). They're different by several orders of magnitude.

We all agree she isn't doing exactly what was done in early cinema. Nobody is saying it is just as bad. So why isn't Eli Wallach playing Tuco less offensive, but still offensive, act?

 

[ishibear]

This guy gets it

No he doesn't.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

No, you were trying to highlight how quickly you could get people to shift their stance by providing a select example or two that highlight a logical fallacy. But satire doesn't count, and that's not what she was attempting, either.

What are you talking about?

• Spork4000 made a ridiculously never/always, black/white, for us/against us, etc.../etc... comment.
• I, have not read the full thread, wondered how quickly s/he would backtrack on it, providing an example showing simulating a different ethnicity in a good light.
• Spork4000 replied that s/he had already backtracked on it.
• I noted for the record the speed of that backtrack.

If satire "doesn't count," then it's a backtrack on his/her original comment. I have no idea why pointing that out is so offensive to you.

 

[freeofgreed]

.

Do you actually have anything to add or are you just gonna keep posting a bunch of arguments multiple people have long since debated.

 

[Exr]

I never implied that. You simply don't know how much worse of an act blackface is. It's why we're talking about it, why it's got a Wiki page, and what it meant for black people during such an oppressive period. Overlooking that is overlooking black history (in America especially). They're different by several orders of magnitude.

You have said this is blackface a lot in the thread to posters. Instead of linking the wiki page, can you explain to people what blackface is? Is painting your face black instantly blackface, or do you need to have more exaggeration with physical features such as the lips? If this was cleared up we would have a lot more constructive posts in the thread.