Support NeoGAF

[Pie and Beans]

Magneto has committed as many awful acts as The Red Skull has. If not more. I'm sure he's been called irredeemable as well.

Old Marvel were very deliberate in that Magneto was used to show Red Skull is the worst of the worst by contrast.

Magnetos done some terrible shit, but hes also been conflicted about it. Sure under some writers they took him down the easy grimdark super-genocide murderer route, but I choose not to recognise such clumsy runs. Such is the problem with comics, you have original intention and the desperate new spins new writers try to force upon them

There is no conflict with Red Skull or Apocalypse and so on however. There is only beating them and reaching a final solution that makes the most sense for the world.

 

[VeeP]

Huh?

The X-Men have Emma Frost, Teen Jean Grey and Rachel Grey - three of the most powerful telepaths ever. They also have Magik, who can whisk Onslaught to Limbo if he starts acting up. If anyone can deal with Skull-Xavier, it's them.

'LOCK HIM IN AVENGERS TOWER.'

Sam Wilson Captain America is the fucking worst.

So wait, you consider this the fucking worst:

"We don't know Xavier is still in there. While he's unconscious, lets take him to the Avengers Tower. There, we can use Starks Telepathy Dampeners to make sure Skull can't affect us. Then, we can assess this whole situation and find out if Xavier is alive."

 

[DeathyBoy]

"We don't know Xavier is still in there. While he's unconscious, lets take him to the Avengers Tower. There, we can use Starks Telepathy Dampeners to make sure Skull can't affect us. Then, we can assess this whole situation and find out if Xavier is alive."

I consider it the worst because The Avengers are STILL treating the X-Men like children. It's amazing AvX 2.0 didn't break out right there. Like it was The Avengers (specifically Stark) responsible for BOTH situations.

Stark's machine split The Phoenix into five in AvX, and here he was mind-controlled with ease to create two super Sentinels. If it wasn't for Deadpool and Magneto, two X characters, they'd have all been killed. And yet Stark and The Avengers still treat the X-Men like monsters.

Also the fact that The Avengers have no psychics, and Stark's 'telepathy dampeners' PLUS Quentin barely worked. X-Men at least have a few more Omega telepaths on the team. If Skull wakes at Avengers Tower, The Avengers are screwed instantly.

 

[Pie and Beans]

"We'll come with you and make sure he doesn't try anything." said the reasonable and not petulant mutant army.

"NO! WE SHOULD KEEP HIM AT A SCHOOL, SURROUNDED BY CHILDREN!!!" says the fucking insane people nobody should ever listen to.

 

[Memento Mori]

"We'll come with you and make sure he doesn't try anything." said the reasonable and not petulant mutant army.

"NO! WE SHOULD KEEP HIM AT A SCHOOL, SURROUNDED BY CHILDREN!!!" says the fucking insane people nobody should ever listen to.

I would guess there are a lot of children in Manhattan too. The JGS is upstate in a less densely populated area.

 

[DeathyBoy]

"We'll come with you and make sure he doesn't try anything." said the reasonable and not petulant mutant army.

"NO! WE SHOULD KEEP HIM AT A SCHOOL, SURROUNDED BY CHILDREN!!!" says the fucking insane people nobody should ever listen to.

It makes far more sense to have him near Stark again, a guy who WAS JUST MIND-CONTROLLED FOR MONTHS and built two super killing machines. That can't possibly go wrong.

 

[WanderingWind]

I would guess there are a lot of children in Manhattan too. The JGS is upstate in a less densely populated area.

Bingo. You can send the kids away. You can't ship the whole city of NYC away.

 

[Pie and Beans]

It makes far more sense to have him near Stark again, a guy who WAS JUST MIND-CONTROLLED FOR MONTHS and built two super killing machines. That can't possibly go wrong.

Its a stupid event all round. Characters are written as easily manipulated as the dumb plot requires. The STARK MADE THESE SENTINELS asspull is one of its absolute worst.

Nevertheless, Havok's temper tantrum makes no sense when the totally reasonable "If he's in there, we'll get him out" offer is made, but who cares: EVENT FRICTION.

Now we invert shit, and get the dumbest of the dumb like Kluh. Can we just skip forward to the universe-wide reboot please. Theres very little of worth even saving anymore.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Its a stupid event all round. Characters are written as easily manipulated as the dumb plot requires. The STARK MADE THESE SENTINELS asspull is one of its absolute worst.

Nevertheless, Havok's temper tantrum makes no sense when the totally reasonable "If he's in there, we'll get him out" offer is made, but who cares: EVENT FRICTION.

Now we invert shit, and get the dumbest of the dumb like Kluh. Can we just skip forward to the universe-wide reboot please. Theres very little of worth even saving anymore.

How will The Avengers get him out?

They have no telepaths. Stark's telepathic dampeners barely worked WITH an omega telepath. And they're not saying 'Cyclops, Havok, we need your help; get your two best telepaths.' They're just saying 'LOL, WE GOT THIS.'

Avengers absolutely suck.

 

[Memento Mori]

If only the X-Men had a telepath-boosting machine at their base for finding mutants.

 

[Pie and Beans]

If only the X-Men had a telepath-boosting machine at their base for finding mutants.

Perfect place to let the worlds most dangerous telepath loose then. What can go wrong.

 

[DeathyBoy]

If only the X-Men had a telepath-boosting machine at their base for finding mutants.

THIS.

ETA - And by this I mean they can use that machine to see if part of Charles IS inside Red Skull.

 

[Manmademan]

How will The Avengers get him out?

They have no telepaths. Stark's telepathic dampeners barely worked WITH an omega telepath. And they're not saying 'Cyclops, Havok, we need your help; get your two best telepaths.' They're just saying 'LOL, WE GOT THIS.'

Avengers absolutely suck.

No telepaths isn't exactly true. SHIELD has telepaths on staff, and they called in exodus on short notice to deal with that super mutant in Uncanny.

Beyond stark's tech they also have power dampers laying around that totally neutralized teen Jean pretty easily in BOTA.

The Avengers/SHIELD have way more resources than the Xmen do, especially when you consider that Emma's TP is still broken and teen Jean is currently missing, having been sent accidentally to the Ultimate universe with the rest of the O5.

Avengers tower is the right call. Granted remember that everyone is acting irrationally due to the inversion. Havok just abandons his wife like it's no big deal (VERY strange after UA) Cyclops is freaking out about saving Xavier when he recently went on at length about Xavier being a hypocritical piece of shit in Uncanny after the "last testament" business, and no one seemed to blink an eye at Evan turning full on Apocalypse.

 

[DeathyBoy]

By Marvel logic this is set after Original Sin, but The Avengers seem fine with each other when they should be divided after Captain America saw what The Illuminati did. Only Cap's really old and Sam Wilson took his place.

Continuity is a mess currently.

 

[Pie and Beans]

no one seemed to blink an eye at Evan turning full on Apocalypse.

The most hilarious part of the whole thing, honestly. Speaks to the excellent X-Men judgement call making. "I'm sure this is fine."

Also, the hypothetical "they'd take him back to the school, flush all the protected children out, then go to work" plot is all fun and games, but the truth of the issue is Rogue tried to wake him then and there, thus provoking the whole "what the fuck is wrong with you people" reaction from the world sanctioned authorities on these matters.

"Fuck that, I was born with portals in my eyes to the punch dimension, I AM THE LAW!!!"

 

[Memento Mori]

The Avengers/SHIELD have way more resources than the Xmen do, especially when you consider that Emma's TP is still broken and teen Jean is currently missing, having been sent accidentally to the Ultimate universe with the rest of the O5.

I'm sure I saw Jean in Axis #1.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Also, the hypothetical "they'd take him back to the school, flush all the protected children out, then go to work" plot is all fun and games, but the truth of the issue is Rogue tried to wake him then and there, thus provoking the whole "what the fuck is wrong with you people" reaction from the world sanctioned authorities on these matters.

1) Let Sentinels destroy Genosha.
2) Divided Phoenix Force into five leading to Charles Xavier's death.
3) Responsible for Ultron.
4) Shrugged off Captain Marvel being impregnated by her own son as 'cute.'
5) Responsible for Age of Ultron.
6) Responsible for Stark Sentinels.
7) Ignore every evil Xavier action to martyr him.
8) Thor trying to kill Apocalypse led to everything in Uncanny Avengers.

Yep, I'd trust The Avengers here. Absolutely.

 

[VeeP]

I consider it the worst because The Avengers are STILL treating the X-Men like children. It's amazing AvX 2.0 didn't break out right there. Like it was The Avengers (specifically Stark) responsible for BOTH situations.

Stark's machine split The Phoenix into five in AvX, and here he was mind-controlled with ease to create two super Sentinels. If it wasn't for Deadpool and Magneto, two X characters, they'd have all been killed. And yet Stark and The Avengers still treat the X-Men like monsters.

Also the fact that The Avengers have no psychics, and Stark's 'telepathy dampeners' PLUS Quentin barely worked. X-Men at least have a few more Omega telepaths on the team. If Skull wakes at Avengers Tower, The Avengers are screwed instantly.

Didn't the Telepathy dampeners go down when Starks armor basically died? And back up when he came back? Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can tell, they seem more effective tan Quentin. Red Onslaught was fighting multiple superhumans, AND STILL managed to push and break Quentin. Who's basically hyped as the next Jean Grey.

If Skull wakes up, Tony's tech will probably keep him at bay.

How will The Avengers get him out?

They have no telepaths. Stark's telepathic dampeners barely worked WITH an omega telepath. And they're not saying 'Cyclops, Havok, we need your help; get your two best telepaths.' They're just saying 'LOL, WE GOT THIS.'

Avengers absolutely suck.

When did they say "X-men we won't call for your help"? Mutants have been on the Avengers, and if they need a telepath they'll let the X-men know.

 

[DeathyBoy]

When did they say "X-men we won't call for your help"? Mutants have been on the Avengers, and if they need a telepath they'll let the X-men know.

They didn't say anything other than 'we got this.'

Which they also re: Hope. And Stark's Phoenix solution was 'fire a weapon at it.' The whole 'we'll guard them' thing doesn't work when dealing with God-level mutants. Especially when the guarding takes place in New York. Red Skull controlled Thor with ease BEFORE he was Onslaught.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Yep, I'd trust The Avengers here. Absolutely.

Tough shit, if you want to change the world through becoming a law-provider, you do it through the proper routes. Havok WAS going fine up until now.

"Mutant law" is not a thing. Also anyone can play the "what has X-team done wrong over last decade" game to paint the worst possible outcomes:

Cyclops big Phoenix plan was "maybe Hope will be able to contain it and it wont destroy the Earth and 7 billion people, maybe, oh she doesnt want to do it, well tough shit, this will work out fine". Lets forget Magik is dangerously unstable with an entire demon dimension seeping through, Beast is responsible for fucking up the whole space time continuum, and any other number of rogue elements currently futzing around at The Best Safest School Ever/Totally Legit Red Skull Prison.

Such is the nature of "everyones as dumb as each other" modern comics.

 

[Sadist]

You know what is damning about this issue? Deadpool was the sane one. Deadpool. And the funniest one with his version of I'm a believer.

Doom is amazing. "Fools do as Doom pleases." "A novelty t-shirt is there ever was one"

Honestly, I think both sides are extremely stupid. Apparently a middle of the road solution isn't in the cards, so hey, let's scream at each other. Apparently all is forgiven regarding Cyclops and that's just stupid. It's so abrupt. Same goes for Havoc. Dude is so unstable because of his face melting down and the kid he had with Wasp, his sudden 180 is pretty weird as well. The first decent conversation he has with Cykes in months and he's all d'aaaaaw, I forgive you man. Avengers being dumb as well. Sam is a bad Cap. Iron Man being dumb.

On the other hand, why would you let the X-Men have Skull? Evan grew into a fullfledged Apocalypse. And no one of the X-Men seems to care. No one! Well except for Deadpool. See, Deadpool pointing out stuff! Guys, Wade is more perceptive than anyone else. World gone mad.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Cyclops big Phoenix plan was "maybe Hope will be able to contain it and it wont destroy the Earth and 7 billion people, maybe, oh she doesnt want to do it, well tough shit, this will work out fine". Lets forget Magik is dangerously unstable with an entire demon dimension seeping through, Beast is responsible for fucking up the whole space time continuum, and any other number of rogue elements currently futzing around at The Best School Ever.

And The Avengers plan was 'let's shoot it with a weapon.'

We'll never know if Scott's plan would have worked. Because The Avengers went all 'WE'RE THE LAW LOL' and invaded a recognised nation. Which is great because She-Hulk and Daredevil forgot they were lawyers and that what they were doing was incredibly illegal.

 

[Manmademan]

Tough shit, if you want to change the world through becoming a law-provider, you do it through the proper routes. Havok WAS going fine up until now.

"Mutant law" is not a thing. Also anyone can play the "what has X-team done wrong over last decade" game to paint the worst possible outcomes:

Cyclops big Phoenix plan was "maybe Hope will be able to contain it and it wont destroy the Earth and 7 billion people, maybe, oh she doesnt want to do it, well tough shit, this will work out fine". Lets forget Magik is dangerously unstable with an entire demon dimension seeping through, Beast is responsible for fucking up the whole space time continuum, and any other number of rogue elements currently futzing around at The Best Safest School Ever/Totally Legit Red Skull Prison.

Such is the nature of "everyones as dumb as each other" modern comics.

Lol this. The Xmen roster also currently includes Magneto as a charter member, and listing his questionable shit would take all day.

This isn't cut and dry here by any means.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Ultimately the Avengers plan did work out, as it was Starks plan that weakened the Phoenix Force for long enough to allow Hope to study the Iron Fist shit and work with Wanda to fix everything while Scott and co were showing how "uncorruptable by an outside force" they were.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Lol this. The Xmen roster also currently includes Magneto as a charter member, and listing his questionable shit would take all day.

This isn't cut and dry here by any means.

Eh, in this case it kinda is. Thor trying to kill Apocalypse is what started this whole mess.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Ultimately the Avengers plan did work out, as it was Starks plan that weakened the Phoenix Force for long enough to allow Hope to study the Iron Fist shit and work with Wanda to fix everything while Scott and co were showing how "uncorruptable by an outside force" they were.

P5 weren't uncorruptable, but they weren't antagonistic until The Avengers kept pushing them. And even then Cyclops was holding Phoenix at bay until Xavier tried killing him.

 

[Manmademan]

Ultimately the Avengers plan did work out, as it was Starks plan that weakened the Phoenix Force for long enough to allow Hope to study the Iron Fist shit and work with Wanda to fix everything while Scott and co were showing how "uncorruptable by an outside force" they were.

I don't think I'm on board with this. Everything the Avengers did during AVX was in the "make things worse" pile.

That being said, one questionable event doesn't make the Avengers wrong about everything ever, and letting the Xmen waltz off with onslaught 2: electric boogaloo with nothing better than the 'hope' that Xavier is in there somewhere is extremely questionable.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I think the problem here is we're agreeing with each other without realising it.

The teams SHOULD work together. But 'we got this' by The Avengers is the same crap that kickstarted AvX. If they'd got together in a room and sorted shit out, the problem would be dealt with. But The Avengers act like they know best again, and are surprised that the X-Men aren't down with it?

 

[Pie and Beans]

P5 weren't uncorruptable, but they weren't antagonistic until The Avengers kept pushing them. And even then Cyclops was holding Phoenix at bay until Xavier tried killing him.

We'll ignore them keeping Hope captive from the start because: convenient.

I think the problem here is we're agreeing with each other without realising it.

The teams SHOULD work together. But 'we got this' by The Avengers is the same crap that kickstarted AvX. If they'd got together in a room and sorted shit out, the problem would be dealt with. But The Avengers act like they know best again, and are surprised that the X-Men aren't down with it?

Avengers and Shield are world recognised powers, X-Men aren't. You either work with the authorities or you dont. Their choice. They can still help out, nobody has disputed that yet.

 

[Manmademan]

Eh, in this case it kinda is. Thor trying to kill Apocalypse is what started this whole mess.

I didn't realize Thor was leading SHIELD or the Avengers. That clears things up. Hey wait, who WAS team leader during UA? Oh right

 

[DeathyBoy]

We'll ignore them keeping Hope captive from the start because: convenient.

She wasn't captive until The Avengers said 'we're taking her whether you like it or not.' Then she was captive because The Avengers had never dealt with Phoenix before, and their 'expert' was Wolverine.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I didn't realize Thor was leading SHIELD or the Avengers. That clears things up. Hey wait, who WAS team leader during UA? Oh right

Alex "I'm sure KANG THE TIME TRAVELLING CONQUERER isn't up to something!!/Oops did I not tell Stark or anyone about this Red Skull thingio" Summers.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Alex "I'm sure KANG THE TIME TRAVELLING CONQUERER isn't up to something!!/Oops did I not tell Stark or anyone about this Red Skull thingio" Summers.

Well given Cap, Wolverine, Thor, Wasp, WM and Wanda were UA members...

 

[kswiston]

Alex "I'm sure KANG THE TIME TRAVELLING CONQUERER isn't up to something!!/Oops did I not tell Stark or anyone about this Red Skull thingio" Summers.

Cap having all of those secret Uncanny Avengers missions sort of makes his temper tantrum over what the Illuminati are doing over in New Avengers a bit ridiculous.

 

[SRG01]

I consider it the worst because The Avengers are STILL treating the X-Men like children. It's amazing AvX 2.0 didn't break out right there. Like it was The Avengers (specifically Stark) responsible for BOTH situations.

Stark's machine split The Phoenix into five in AvX, and here he was mind-controlled with ease to create two super Sentinels. If it wasn't for Deadpool and Magneto, two X characters, they'd have all been killed. And yet Stark and The Avengers still treat the X-Men like monsters.

Also the fact that The Avengers have no psychics, and Stark's 'telepathy dampeners' PLUS Quentin barely worked. X-Men at least have a few more Omega telepaths on the team. If Skull wakes at Avengers Tower, The Avengers are screwed instantly.

Actually, Quentin was already down for the count by then. The only thing that was truely effective *was* Stark's tech -- too effective.

Spoiler

That probably factors into his inversion.

it makes far more sense to have him near stark again, a guy who was just mind-controlled FOR MONTHS and built two super killing machines. That can't possibly go wrong.

Hold on here. Unless I am mistaken or if this plot point was in the current Iron Man book,

Spoiler

the Iron Sentinels came from his files back from Civil War. The reason why Stark can't remember any of it is because he had a mind wipe/reboot after that event.

So.. Huh? What are you getting at?

 

[DeathyBoy]

Actually, Quentin was already down for the count by then. The only thing that was truely effective *was* Stark's tech -- too effective.

Spoiler

That probably factors into his inversion.

Tony was powered up again by Deadpool... after Tony went on a ridiculous rant about how Deadpool could never be an Avenger because he kills people.

Mutants don't get no respect.

 

[SRG01]

Tony was powered up again by Deadpool... after Tony went on a ridiculous rant about how Deadpool could never be an Avenger because he kills people.

Mutants don't get no respect.

Please read my edit.

And no, *Deadpool* is the one that gets no respect. The current Deadpool issue (and series) is very good at showing that

Spoiler

and also some cool things about how the inversion could work.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Please read my edit.

And no, *Deadpool* is the one that gets no respect. The current Deadpool issue (and series) is very good at showing that

Spoiler

and also some cool things about how the inversion could work.

Hold on here. Unless I am mistaken or if this plot point was in the current Iron Man book, the Iron Sentinels came from his files back from Civil War. The reason why Stark can't remember any of it is because he had a mind wipe/reboot after that event.

Really?

I got the impression Red Skull had been mind controlling him and then wiped his mind of the information. But that does make sense now that you're saying it. Normally I'd go 'eh, no one is that continuity obsessed' but given the writer...

 

[SRG01]

Really?

I got the impression Red Skull had been mind controlling him and then wiped his mind of the information. But that does make sense now that you're saying it. Normally I'd go 'eh, no one is that continuity obsessed' but given the writer...

I'd have to dig up Civil War again to make sure, but I'm 90% sure. You can read the summary of Civil War somewhere and try to find that detail.

Spoiler

He made a backup of his mind sometime before and it got reloaded after the event.

I believe the mind reboot also makes him forget that he still has Extremis? Or was that addressed in a previous book already?

 

[DeathyBoy]

I'd have to dig up Civil War again to make sure, but I'm 90% sure. You can read the summary of Civil War somewhere and try to find that detail.

Spoiler

He made a backup of his mind sometime before and it got reloaded after the event.

I believe the mind reboot also makes him forget that he still has Extremis? Or was that addressed in a previous book already?

I remember that mindwipe, I just didn't connect the dots.

Well in that case... I'd say it's 50/50 to blame. I mean Stark mind-wiped that horrible Miller version from continuity to save us all. Now Red Skull's dragging that shit up. What a complete bastard.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Nope, Skull only gets mind powers after AvX, so its a recent thing, which makes it all the more ridiculous as he wouldnt have had any time in between New Avengers shit, going into space, and his new brother Arno Stark and his city project to be mind manipulated into making super sentinels.

 

[SRG01]

The fact that Stark always messes things up will probably factor into his inversion. And Superior Iron Man.

Nope, Skull only gets mind powers after AvX, so its a recent thing, which makes it all the more ridiculous as he wouldnt have had any time in between New Avengers shit, going into space, and his new brother Arno Stark and his city project to be mind manipulated into making super sentinels.

Red skull built them, not Tony?

 

[Sadist]

Tony going into full dickmode kinda sucks.

I really liked his redemption quest during Fraction's run

 

[Pie and Beans]

The fact that Stark always messes things up will probably factor into his inversion. And Superior Iron Man.



Red skull built them, not Tony?

"Working late into the night, it took little telepathic influence to get you to build your machines for me -- so eager to display your brilliance".

Asspulls for all!

Tony going into full dickmode kinda sucks.

I really liked his redemption quest during Fraction's run

Despite the charismatic lynch pin of the MCU being RDJ's Stark, Marvel Comics have no idea what to do with him longterm other than make him an irredeemable asshole in every single event.

 

[Parallax]

I don't think I'm on board with this. Everything the Avengers did during AVX was in the "make things worse" pile.

This i disagree with. The avengers fucked up, but said fuck up bought hope time she didnt have before.

Despite the charismatic lynch pin of the MCU being RDJ's Stark, Marvel Comics have no idea what to do with him longterm other than make him an irredeemable asshole in every single event.

Tony stark has been king fuck up for a long time. Its one of the few consistent themes in marvel. Its also amazing how much trust he has in spite of it.

 

[RoninChaos]

I would love to get back into Xmen but I have no idea where to start. Why does everybody hate professornX?

 

[Memento Mori]

I would love to get back into Xmen but I have no idea where to start. Why does everybody hate professornX?

Here are two:

Didn't tell Cyclops and Havok they had another brother.
Didn't tell anyone the Danger Room AI had become sentient leading to the death of children.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I would love to get back into Xmen but I have no idea where to start. Why does everybody hate professornX?

Because every few years Marvel feels they need to force reveal yet another evil action into Xavier's past. The dude might as well be a super villain by now.

 

[Loke13]

Please read my edit.

And no, *Deadpool* is the one that gets no respect. The current Deadpool issue (and series) is very good at showing that

Spoiler

and also some cool things about how the inversion could work.

What issue does the current Deadpool series begin?

 

[Hagi]

What issue does the current Deadpool series begin?

issue 1

Deadpool made an already good issue even better. Insane how much better he is as a character since they got rid of that fucking hack Way.