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[Shouta]

I'm a bit late to the party but I would like to clarify some things (if possible) about the whole "guard break" and +12 thing. Actually I'd like to get away from the term "guard break" and go with the term "guard punish" for a moment...

Someone made a point that if you use akira's 2p+k+g, you can still block... this is true. After 2p+k+g hits on block, you will be at +12 frame advantage which gives you a big enough window to do akira's pk (since it fits in the 12 frame window) but you couldn't do 66p (which comes out in 13 frames)

using the move provides you with a guaranteed instance, but the recovery window is a lot smaller than say a guard break in King of Fighters or whatever.

Also, I should mention that you can not throw the opponent when a character is in this "guard punish/break" state.. if that matters

The problem with this discussion is probably an issue where nobody has agreed on a clear definition of the term "guard break"

Wouldn't that just be the hitstun wearing out? Or is it like: Get hit with 2p+k+g => period where Akira can hit you with pk => some length of normal blockstun?

The window being a lot smaller than KOF or something wasn't the issue here. We just have issues with the wordings and at least I have trouble believing AM2 would tie the guard breaking to frame advantage instead of just flagging the moves given VF5 already uses flags extensively (AFAIK).

Also I trawled VFDC wiki for examples of high frame advantage moves. Pai 66K+G first hit probably isn't +18 on block?

Shidosha, does blocking have a start up in VF? Or was it instant frame-wise. I don't actually recall. That would make this easier to layout properly.

 

[Slamtastic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YSaki3CLks

 

[QisTopTier]

Tekken notation is dreadful.

Old Guilty gear notation is terrible. Using the names of the moves, and abbreviating them when ever see fit. Nuke that shit to orbit.

Well Arc Sys games are pretty character specific games so it kind of makes sense to have unique things for characters in that sense. Specially when some of the combos have a lot of specials in them.


Though I can read either version ok

5K > c.S > GS > 5P > c.S > 5HS > HSVT > RC > IAD > j.D > land > GS > j.K > j.S >HSVT

5K > c.S > 214K > 5P > c.S > 5HS > 623HS > RC > IAD > j.D > land > 214K > j.K > j.S >623HS

Same shit

 

[Shouta]

The only time abbreviating the special move name for combos is appropriate is in MVC2.

AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB

 

[Dahbomb]

Numpad notation should be used for SF and MVC games but for Tekken there is no good reason anyone can come up with for that game to adopt the Numpad system.

Especially SF because you can reduce the number of characters used by half or more. Instead of saying cr.LP you can just use 2A.

For Tekken you aren't reducing the character length significantly and it just leads to overlapping of information causing further confusion. To make numpad logical for Tekken requires additional categorization of moves because you can't just logically annotate them without adding asterisks or other stuff. That's why the current set up is most optimum for Tekken.

For most other games I am fine with Numpad especially for the Capcom games.

 

[SixMachine]

The only time abbreviating the special move name for combos is appropriate is in MVC2.

AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB

You're missing the guard break variation J.HP > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB > AHVB

Spoiler

I always found that kind of guard break funny for some reason. EVERYONE GET'S SHOT! Though in this case it's more of MVC2 having goofy mechanics than any actual property since you can only block once when jumping and the J.HP just makes them use up that block before they hit the ground.

 

[CountBlack]

FGW | Press 'F' to Ignore Blackule

You can put me on ignore after you tell them how that ft10 went breh

 

[RockTurtle]

FGW | Press "3" to DeeJay

 

[Professor Beef]

Fuck numbers, I'll use QCF/SRK/etc until my dying breath.

It's about a tone-deaf tutorial prompt at a funeral, where you can Press F to Pay Respects, with an extra prompt on the coffin. It's funny because it sums up how weird COD and other big-budget games can get when they try to balance between standard game design and standard storytelling spots in films.
It's also getting some buzz because it might be offensive to servicepersons. And it's already turned into a hi-larious meme.

Oh is that all? I thought it was something serious instead of gamers being gamers.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Are numbers that hard? Is it like in high school when everyone complained about math because they were dumb?

 

[Horseress]

Numpad notation is an international standard that isn't limited by language.

It's also faster to write and easier to understand if you take 30 seconds out of your day to do so.

Now the worst thing I ever heard as an argument against numpad notation was "it doesn't work when not on 1P side". I facepalmed so hard that I altered Earth's trajectory.

I get your points, guess I just got waaay too used to the standard notations.

Back in the day, were I had to go to gamefaqs to get movelists, they hardly used numpad notations. I had to get used to the standard notations, but the faqs always had glossaries.

Maybe if I had first saw the numpad notations I would prefer it, but yeah, the standard is my favorite (ps: I'm not a native english speaker)

 

[vocab]

Are numbers that hard? Is it like in high school when everyone complained about math because they were dumb?

Math is hard. Looking at your numpad like a square gate isn't.

 

[Anne]

Any Carmine footage? :3

Yeah, the number one Carmine. He got a lot of RIP out of nowhere and made it to finals of this tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFrrnSihOmQ There's 4 parts, I'm sure you can find them :v

 

[Professor Beef]

Are numbers that hard? Is it like in high school when everyone complained about math because they were dumb?

hey, i'm an american

the only numbers i need to know are the ones on my phone that connect me to my local pizza joint

 

[Dahbomb]

You could make the argument that the Numpad system heavily favors people who use keyboards/laptops when now people use smartphones to look up movelists online.

The numpad on cellphones are reversed (123 on top) which causes further confusion for people in this age of technology.

I am not going to lie... to this day I still have to sometimes look at my numpad to orient myself when reading a movelist.

 

[emb]

I'm ok with numpad, I think it's fine. It's just that more semantic notation is better. Something like cr. or j. makes it much clearer when you want your character to be in a different state, while it can be ambiguous if something like 9P would be a jump in or a command input.

 

[QisTopTier]

Yeah, the number one Carmine. He got a lot of RIP out of nowhere and made it to finals of this tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFrrnSihOmQ There's 4 parts, I'm sure you can find them :v

Thanks <3

Edit: Damn he plays a fuck ton like how I did

Spoiler

but more optimized

. This is good

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I'm ok with numpad, I think it's fine. It's just that more semantic notation is better. Something like cr. or j. makes it much clearer when you want your character to be in a different state, while it can be ambiguous if something like 9P would be a jump in or a command input.

Not sure I've ever seen it typed out like that. If one's describing a jump, it's still something like j.2C or dj.B. Crouching is 2A, though, sure.

 

[Azure J]

I'm honestly cool with both numbers and motion notation, but I will probably always relay information to people playing for the first time or in general using motion notation.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

You could make the argument that the Numpad system heavily favors people who use keyboards/laptops when now people use smartphones to look up movelists online.

The numpad on cellphones are reversed (123 on top) which causes further confusion for people in this age of technology.

I am not going to lie... to this day I still have to sometimes look at my numpad to orient myself when reading a movelist.

I grew up holding the TV remote in my hand which also has it reversed and I can figure it out fine.

 

[Jazz-ism]

Numpad notation is the DeeJay of fighting game notations.

Its ass

someone please add this to scrubquotes

 

[OceanBlue]

Not sure I've ever seen it typed out like that. If one's describing a jump, it's still something like j.2C or dj.B. Crouching is 2A, though, sure.

Yeah, I've never seen someone type out 8A for j.A. That said, I've seen people use 7, 8, and 9 for stuff like TK inputs or OS inputs. For example, for Lambda's Crescent Saber loops in BBCS people would differentiate between 2149D, 2148D, and 2147D so you could adjust your spacing to get more loops.

 

[RockTurtle]

which is easier for a newbie though?

 

[Infinite]

which is easier for a newbie though?

numpad

 

[Nyoro SF]

which is easier for a newbie though?

If you're starting from scratch newbie or trying to learn a combo newbie?

 

[Kumubou]

Shidosha, does blocking have a start up in VF? Or was it instant frame-wise. I don't actually recall. That would make this easier to layout properly.

The only time blocking has any start-up is in side turn or back turn situations, and that's because you can't block in those situation normally and you need N frames (3 for side turn and 6 for back turned, iirc) to go into a valid blocking state. It's why jabs at +10 sideturned can't be blocked but can be ducked.

Now the worst thing I ever heard as an argument against numpad notation was "it doesn't work when not on 1P side". I facepalmed so hard that I altered Earth's trajectory.

And like I always say about numpad notation: any notation that doesn't reflect there is a 2p side is bad notation.

I lol'd.

I use numeric notation for everything, even Tekken (mainly because it drives every Tekken player I know mad. :V)

 

[MikeBreezy92]

numpad

I'd say neither. It pretty much a new language somewhat and it takes a while to learn.

 

[QisTopTier]

which is easier for a newbie though?

numpad

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I actually hate numbers for buttons because there's no frame of reference for what they do. numbers for directions at least has the reference point you can use to explain.

Same although I guess I can see the logic. Assuming punches are always counted first, you first count punches and then kicks in order of strength or their left-to-right position on an arcade layout.

Still hate it tho

Imagine a human figure in front of you, as if you're looking at them from the back of their head and they are facing forward in the same direction as you.

1, the upper left button represents the upper left limb. 2, the upper right button represents the upper right limb. 3, the lower left button represents the lower left limb. etc.

this matches the default layout on a stick

But those games use more than 4 buttons. Plus not everyone uses a pad, or they remap their buttons so that's not a good frame of reference either.

And if you are going to use that as a frame of reference, then why can't you do the same by looking at a numpad for directional notation?

I would think pad would be more confusing because their layout is shaped in a diamond.

For arcade, Tekken only has four buttons. Five with the obvious tag button that sticks out from the rest for TTT2. It's not that confusing in that context.

 

[Infinite]

I'd say neither. It pretty much a new language somewhat and it takes a while to learn.

but between the two which one is easier. I'll go with numpad.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

but between the two which one is easier. I'll go with numpad.

I think Up = U is easier to understand than Up = 8.

 

[QisTopTier]

I think Up = U is easier to understand than Up = 8.

No one says 8 for jump

5K > c.S > GS > 5P > c.S > JI > 2HS > SJC > j.S > j.P > j.S > j.P > JC > j.S > RTL

 

[MikeBreezy92]

No one says 8 for jump

Never said jump. Up does not always equal jump in some games.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I think the num pad is fine. I grew up with the old notations, but when I got into 3D games, it was pretty easy to understand (imo) and be cool with both.

 

[Retro_]

I think the biggest barrier to learning numpad notation is purely a psychological one.

When people see a page of letters and words, most people don't freak out and can read it line by line.

but for some reason when people see a page of numbers, their eyes glaze over and they struggle to comprehend the meaning of them.

Like I've had math classes with some genuinely smart people. They could to the problems and keep up with the material, but when they saw a long problem worked out step by step either on the board or in the textbook, they'd struggle to understand even the most obvious things. Things they've been doing when working the problems themselves.

So overall I think numpad is easier because it just makes more sense logically than the other notation, but smart people who can play fighting games for some reason just can't grasp it because they're the type of people who can't look at sentences of numbers and have them make sense like words do.

 

[Busaiku]

Numpad is lame cause it always assumes Player 1.

 

[Lemstar]

I'm ok with numpad, I think it's fine. It's just that more semantic notation is better. Something like cr. or j. makes it much clearer when you want your character to be in a different state, while it can be ambiguous if something like 9P would be a jump in or a command input.

There's a difference between 8D and j.8D.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Numpad is lame cause it always assumes Player 1.

you trolling right?

 

[QisTopTier]

Numpad is lame cause it always assumes Player 1.

I fail to see the issue

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Numpad is lame cause it always assumes Player 1.

It's the same for normal notations as well, QCF or whatever needs to be flipped per side.

 

[QisTopTier]

It's the same for normal notations as well, QCF or whatever needs to be flipped as per side.

Not true, QCF is always QCF of whatever direction your character is facing.

Arcade cabinets technically used Numpad if you think about it.

 

[Busaiku]

It's the same for normal notations as well, QCF or whatever needs to be flipped as per side.

No it doesn't.

 

[OceanBlue]

You guys just need to embrace the unicode future. &#8594;&#8595;&#8600;

They even have 360s! &#8634; And dashes? Pfft. &#8649;

 

[QisTopTier]

You guys just need to embrace the unicode future. &#8594;&#8595;&#8600;

They even have 360s! &#8634; And dashes? Pfft. &#8649;

BUT HOW WILL I KNOW WHAT TO DO ON PLAYER 2 SIDE

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Not true, QCF is always QCF of whatever direction your character is facing.

That's true. But the old pictures and menus (I thought) would always state that this is for the 1p side. And the directional arrows would flip in move lists when you switched sides.

But yea. If the newbies now what forward is. Lets go num pad.

 

[Busaiku]

You guys just need to embrace the unicode future. &#8594;&#8595;&#8600;

They even have 360s! &#8634; And dashes? Pfft. &#8649;

Still player 1.
Edit - Darn it Q.

 

[Slamtastic]

the arrows for moves in the movelist switch to match your side in NRS games and it sucks

it also sucks that it displays controller buttons in the menu instead of attack strength/type icons

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Couldn't you just say 214 from 2p side if you wanted to get technical for number pad?

 

[Grakl]

You guys just need to embrace the unicode future. &#8594;&#8595;&#8600;

They even have 360s! &#8634; And dashes? Pfft. &#8649;

Aren't 360s usually the other way though

 

[QisTopTier]

Aren't 360s usually the other way though

360's are 360's