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[DunpealD]

My terminology is not inconsistent merely because it doesn't apply to games I'm not talking about. In VF, you cannot block a 12f attack at -12 regardless of how you got there. Any move that is +12 on guard is a guard break. A move, like P, isn't a guard break because it is only +2 on block. There is no 2f attack which you can guarantee after a blocked P. Being +12 on block is as much of a "special property" for Akira's 2P+K+G as being -4 on block is a "special property" of a character's 6P.

Your definition of guard break still seems a little bit iffy. Guard breaks removes the guard and opens the opponent up for followups. A +12 on guard, even though I don't think there's any example for it, means that the opponent can still block. So the specific Akira attack removes the guard and puts the opponent in +12 hitstun.
Using game specific examples, to coin terms, seems rather counter productive.

NRS games are actually an oddball in terms of hit/blockstun. Because there are special states which puts you in hitstun, but still let's you retain the ability to block. I think the only other game that does this is the spin state of P4A.

 

[oneida]

A +12 on guard, even though I don't think there's any example for it, means that the opponent can still block.

Please tell me how you arrived at this conclusion.

 

[Astarte]

Oh. I forgot and thought Catalina was a Smash character. Now i know why I was getting all that >.>

Oh ho ho ho

Challenge the mailman to a FT10 for the game back

I can't, what if he has sick Urien setups? I'll never be able to look him in the eye again.

Capcom Loke-testing a new arcade game!

I hate you.

 

[Xevren]

If anyone watched MASTERCUP 7 over the weekend, please let me know your feedback!

I'm meeting with Bandai Namco in the morning, particularly the TEKKEN team. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Mastercup was fantastic, as far as feedback tell them they better bring back Lee

 

[DunpealD]

Please tell me how you arrived at this conclusion.

The conclusion lies in raw data. As I said I don't think there's any example of that much frame advantage on block though. Theoretically speaking by your definition Sagats cl.lp would be a guard breaker because it's +4 on block and he has a cr.lp that has 3 startup frames or the light sonic boom setup with Guile.

On block/Blockstun usually means you're locked into blocking. Guard break means opening up the block.

 

[BadWolf]

Your definition of guard break still seems a little bit iffy. Guard breaks removes the guard and opens the opponent up for followups. A +12 on guard, even though I don't think there's any example for it, means that the opponent can still block. So the specific Akira attack removes the guard and puts the opponent in +12 hitstun.
Using game specific examples, to coin terms, seems rather counter productive.

Nah, he is saying that in VF, +12 on block is the minimum requirement for a move to be a guard break move. They tied the guard break property to that stat.

It's the same as a move needing to deplete the guard meter in KOF.

A +12 move in VF depletes the guard meter in the game basically.

 

[oneida]

The conclusion lies in raw data. As I said I don't think there's any example of that much frame advantage on block though.

The problem for me is that anything that does grant that kind of frame advantage is by nature a guard break and therefore seems to have been deemed inappropriate for this discussion, which I think is silly. The best I can do is tell you that a move which forces ST, like a CH circular, and leaves the opponent at -9, that opponent won't be able to block a 12f P even though they won't be in hitstun during the first 3f.

Theoretically speaking by your definition Sagats cl.lp would be a guard breaker because it's +4 on block and he has a cr.lp that has 3 startup frames or the light sonic boom setup with Guile.

Ok this is driving me crazy, if you're not going to read the posts you quote please don't try to debate this with me. You quoted this, man!

My terminology is not inconsistent merely because it doesn't apply to games I'm not talking about.

 

[Shouta]

My terminology is not inconsistent merely because it doesn't apply to games I'm not talking about. In VF, you cannot block a 12f attack at -12 regardless of how you got there. Any move that is +12 on guard is a guard break. A move, like P, isn't a guard break because it is only +2 on block. There is no 2f attack which you can guarantee after a blocked P. Being +12 on block is as much of a "special property" for Akira's 2P+K+G as being -4 on block is a "special property" of a character's 6P.

Pretty sure your terminology is inconsistent.

http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/glossary/

A guard break in VF is a move that causes a blocking opponent to lose their blocking status thus opening them up to attack. A move that charges up and causes stagger or the SPOD, or that one move Brad has are guard breaks. If you block it from neutral, your guard is destroyed,

The situation you're referring to is probably better characterized as unblockable/guardable. Since you're at such a disadvantage, you can't activate a block. It's not being broken, it can't be blocked. I guess it could technically be a guard break but that's a weird way of characterizing the situation. Are there even a lot of moves that don't automatically break your block but are +12f on block?

 

[Lostconfused]

All of this shows that VF terminology and concepts don't translate all that well to 2D games and the other way around.

Of course this should be expected with almost all games, but 2D fighters from japan seem to fit in the same mold more or less.

 

[RockTurtle]

is VF the one that uses numbers for positions and buttons?

 

[Shouta]

VF concepts aren't all that alien honestly, it just adds a few things to frames that you have to consider. Side turn requires several frames to adjust so it's just one more calculation in the bucket.

I think SF has 1 or 2 frames to turn your char around too actually. I sowre had a setup with T.hawk that does U1 from an Anti-air but it was ridiculous difficult because the only time I got it was when the chars were turning around, after a cross-under. I swore it worked but it's too hard to replicate consistently. ;_;

 

[Professor Beef]

is VF the one that uses numbers for positions and buttons?

No, that's anime games.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

is VF the one that uses numbers for positions and buttons?

VF and SC use numbers for directions and PKG(ABKG for Soul Calibur) for the face buttons.

Tekken used 1,2,3,4 for its face buttons and the actual directions for U,D,F,B. I think MK uses the same from what I remember.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

MK and Injustice use 1,2,3,4 for buttons and thank god. The numberpad for directions sucks.

 

[Thomasorus]

I had a looong talk with a smash player that just arrived where I live and we talked about the whole metagame of the new smash, that was very interesting. The game is very interesting, even more balanced between melee and brawl than I thought.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

MK and Injustice use 1,2,3,4 for buttons and thank god. The numberpad for directions sucks.

I actually prefer this too. Number pad for directions requires a bit more thought than just U, D, F, B, U/F, D/F, etc etc.

 

[Shouta]

I actually hate numbers for buttons because there's no frame of reference for what they do. numbers for directions at least has the reference point you can use to explain.

 

[Busaiku]

The Fall Classic is literally anime

Spoiler

manga

.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I actually prefer this too. Number pad for directions requires a bit more thought than just U, D, F, B, U/F, D/F, etc etc.

But that's just when one's not accustomed to it. It's really easy once you get used to it; 9 = U/F. At that point, I guess it's just preference, but I suppose I've been accustomed to number pad notation for directions.

Numbers for buttons sounds like crazy talk.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I actually hate numbers for buttons because there's no frame of reference for what they do. numbers for directions at least has the reference point you can use to explain.

You don't really need that reference though but 1,2 are usually punches and 3,4 are kicks.

1,2 are the top buttons, 3,4 are the bottom buttons

 

[BadWolf]

I don't like using numbers for either tbh.

 

[oneida]

Pretty sure your terminology is inconsistent.

http://virtuafighter.com/wiki/glossary/

A guard break in VF is a move that causes a blocking opponent to lose their blocking status thus opening them up to attack. A move that charges up and causes stagger or the SPOD, or that one move Brad has are guard breaks. If you block it from neutral, your guard is destroyed,

The situation you're referring to is probably better characterized as unblockable/guardable. Since you're at such a disadvantage, you can't activate a block. It's not being broken, it can't be blocked. I guess it could technically be a guard break but that's a weird way of characterizing the situation. Are there even a lot of moves that don't automatically break your block but are +12f on block?

ima hit the lab on this, 1min!

 

[SolarKnight]

I actually hate numbers for buttons because there's no frame of reference for what they do. numbers for directions at least has the reference point you can use to explain.

Same although I guess I can see the logic. Assuming punches are always counted first, you first count punches and then kicks in order of strength or their left-to-right position on an arcade layout.

Still hate it tho

 

[Malice215]

Anime and 3D games except for Tekken use numbers for directional notation. If you can learn all of the things that are required for a fighting game, then you can learn that 6 = forward and so on.

Tekken/MK/Injustice use numbers for buttons which I dislike because there's no frame of reference, especially when it's used during commentary.

You don't really need that reference though but 1,2 are usually punches and 3,4 are kicks.

1,2 are the top buttons, 3,4 are the bottom buttons

But those games use more than 4 buttons. Plus not everyone uses a pad, or they remap their buttons so that's not a good frame of reference either.

And if you are going to use that as a frame of reference, then why can't you do the same by looking at a numpad for directional notation?

 

[Tizoc]

I'll try not to forget to post this week's batch @_@
1 week to go, hopefully I get around to at least compiling it.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

And if you are going to use that as a frame of reference, then why can't you do the same by looking at a numpad for directional notation?

Because 1-4 is easier to remember than 1-9? Idk it just easier for me lol

 

[SolarKnight]

Because 1-4 is easier to remember than 1-9? Idk it just easier for me lol

Well, if you're gonna use "top" and "bottom" to remember buttons wouldn't it be just as easy to do the same for directions? 3 numbers for every row but down-to-up instead of up-to-down like the buttons.

 

[AAK]

Numbers are way easier to write and say instead of LP, RK, LK, LP. Especially in a game like Tekken which uses so many multi-button commands.

And the order is extremely easy and intuitive. It's just the order going from left to right on a pad.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Numbers are way easier to write and say instead of LP, RK, LK, LP. Especially in a game like Tekken which uses so many multi-button commands.

What about A, B, C, D?

 

[MikeBreezy92]

What about A, B, C, D?

That could work too. KOF uses that.

 

[Professor Beef]

And if you are going to use that as a frame of reference, then why can't you do the same by looking at a numpad for directional notation?

Because I didn't use a keyboard to play fighters like a nerd

 

[Dahbomb]

Because the letters start getting mixed up with other stuff like CH, WR, SS, B!, b, c for various status effects in the game.

 

[AAK]

What does A represent, what does B represent?

The game itself doesn't even give a written notation, they do everything corresponding to the color of symbol on the bad. I remember SNK games like Last Blade 2 explicitly say that A does such and such, D does such and such before the character select making it the official notation. The Japanese Tekken players use the Anime+VF/SC style of notation and in the end had the convention of LP,RP,LK,RK to represent Left Punch, Right Punch, Left Kick, Right Kick. So something like Paul's deathfist will look like 236RP. Using the Western style it's qcf+2.

You can compare for yourself to see which one is easier to look at:

Lili's Movelist using numpad notation

Lili's Movelist using the TekkenZaibatsu convention.

Because the letters start getting mixed up with other stuff like CH, WR, SS, B!, b, c for various status effects in the game.

That too. As you can see from the above links, in the Japanese style have to go to a different page to see all the sidestep moves, another page to see the moves off of a crouch dash, another to see the backturned moves. The Tekken Zaibatsu notation comes up with simplified terms like SS+1+2 for a sidestep both punches on the same page as everything else making it a far less hassle to look at.

 

[Coffeeling]

EDIT: Kill it Shouta!

 

[Retro_]

Numpad notation is the most evolved form of fighting game notation.

Numbers for buttons makes no sense outside of NRS games

 

[Dahbomb]

Numpad notation is the most evolved form of fighting game notation.

Numbers for buttons makes no sense outside of NRS games

Numbers for buttons makes perfect sense for Tekken and like we have already shown using the numpad method for Tekken results in a cluster fuck when it comes to listing moves or talking about moves with various status effects in the game.

 

[Professor Beef]

who did numpad notation ever beat in tournament

 

[Doomshine]

Numpad notation is the most evolved form of fighting game notation.

Numbers for buttons makes no sense outside of NRS games

You have 4 attack buttons in Tekken, that's it, that's all they do. It works just fine for Tekken.

 

[Master Milk]

Numpad notation is the most evolved form of fighting game notation.

Numbers for buttons makes no sense outside of NRS games

A Hitbox with directional buttons that have numbers on them would be the ultimate fighting game controller

"This is my final form! Prepare to die!"

 

[Professor Beef]

A Hitbox with directional buttons that have numbers on them would be the ultimate fighting game controller

"This is my final form! Prepare to die!"

If the buttons were actually shaped like the numbers, too

 

[FluxWaveZ]

You have 4 attack buttons in Tekken, that's it, that's all they do. It works just fine for Tekken.

But there are only 4 buttons in BlazBlue, Persona and Uniel too...

 

[petghost]

Maybe ya'll talked about it but I saw some potential mkx block infinite on eventhubs. What's up with early nrs games and block infinites? I know kabal had one but wasn't there one early on in injustice as well?

 

[CountBlack]

Maybe ya'll talked about it but I saw some potential mkx block infinite on eventhubs. What's up with early nrs games and block infinites? I know kabal had one but wasn't there one early on in injustice as well?

Pls read the last page of frames and data

 

[Doomshine]

But there are only 4 buttons in BlazBlue, Persona and Uniel too...

What I mean is they have no other function, they are all do the same, so there's no need to refer to them as G for guard or whatever.

 

[atomic moth]

Just use numbers for everything.

523252362

That's a WGF buffered into a tag then a death fist.

I won't even tell you what game it is.

 

[RockTurtle]

Just use numbers for everything.

523252362

That's a WGF buffered into a tag then a death fist.

I won't even tell you what game it is.

Jojo

 

[AAK]

Numpad doesn't work well with Tekken. How are you gonna show a sidestep move with the numpad?

If I wanted to do Steve's death sandwhich, it's SS+1+2

The inatekken website shows the Japanese use: 横移動中にWP

They can't use 99WP or 33WP because that would mean to jump or twitch crouch. The notation works in VF and Soul Calibur because to jump you have to hold the guard button so it works with their system. Tekken handles blocking by holding back so holding the up command or down command jumps/crouches. The TekkenZaibatsu notation easily accommodates the 3rd dimension for Tekken's controls significantly better than the numpad version. Oh yeah, they do WP to represent both punches, WK to represent both kicks. Now you have to remember 6 individual button commands instead of 4 in the Tekken Zaibatsu version. And then using the above when listing combo's is MUCH more convenient.

 

[DunpealD]

Ok this is driving me crazy, if you're not going to read the posts you quote please don't try to debate this with me. You quoted this, man!

It's about the actual terminology. If VF had a move that is not guard breaking and +12f on block it would not be a guard breaker. Equaling +12f on block to a guard breaker is skipping the fact that the move has actually the special property of removing the guard by putting the opponent into stagger.

From the wiki:

Guard break move(top)

A move that causes a guarding opponent to stagger. Charging moves, when fully charged, have this effect.

Stagger is pretty much the same thing as being in hit stun. The equivalent to other games would be a guard crush(depleting guard gauges or special attack in BBCP).

Are there even a lot of moves that don't automatically break your block but are +12f on block?

I don't think there's any move in any game that does this. But factually speaking, calling something +12f on block a guard breaker is not correct and that's why people are confused. Even if something is +12f on block it would just be a mixup chance, since they still have the ability to block.

All of this shows that VF terminology and concepts don't translate all that well to 2D games and the other way around.

Of course this should be expected with almost all games, but 2D fighters from japan seem to fit in the same mold more or less.

Frame data terminology is universal bar a few exceptions. Like MK/P4A(weird states) and DoA(holds). The only issue here is equaling +12f on block to a guard breaker, due to the only +12f on block attack(s) being a guard breaker.

 

[vocab]

Tekken notation is dreadful.

Old Guilty gear notation is terrible. Using the names of the moves, and abbreviating them when ever see fit. Nuke that shit to orbit.

 

[onionfrog]

Numpad notation is the DeeJay of fighting game notations.

Its ass