Fighting Games Weekly | Nov 10-16 | Frauds Among Us

BakedYams said:
Many different answers? I don't mean to be rude but the majority of us came to an agreement that eSports would tamper with grass root tournaments in which the FGC lives off of.
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I think Capcom at the very least came to the conclusion that the existing community needs to be considered and integrated, and they did a pretty good job of that, and if IPL didn't fold it would have been cool to see if that worked out well for everyone.

rookiejet said:
That's perhaps you not being into the games that are being competed in. I also imagine it's harder to appreciate or care about the stakes in those games, without some level of familiarity, than it is for laymen with fighting games (or it could just that I'm already steeped in fighting games). But like, I play some of those games casually and I can still appreciate the fierceness of competition without yet fully understanding the strategies employed. Of the Dota competitions I've watched, the players were playing out of their minds and I couldn't not empathize because they (and the crowd) were emoting so much, lol. The hype is there, and it's for a lot of people. Just perhaps not for the games you and I are interested in maybe
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You know, watching Halo 5 during Halofest the other day really got me excited, but it was a tempered sort of excitement because of the presentation (granted, it wasn't completely live).

Tangent but
Like I mentioned above, it's all about tailoring the presentation to the content. I don't think "professional" and "raw" are mutually exclusive, nor do I think putting a limit on how many brushed aluminum stream overlays there are or telling people they can't call each other faggots on stream are going too far in either direction. I think last year's SCR was the closest we got to that balance. When I picture an eSports FGC in my head, it's some combination of what we saw there with maybe an MLG/ESPN desk with at least one colour commentary host and ample sports/crowd cams. All in all I think the community is doing a pretty good job of trying to get themselves where they want to be, but the catalyst needed is another big game and sponsors to get it to that point.
 
i think alex valle has the right idea on how to present the events more professionally and still keep that "raw" fgc flavor to events. he just needs more help on the production side. imo level up is the closest to getting it right.
 
Astarte said:
Also by sterile I mean it's...a bit too clean? I don't know how to describe it
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I get what you're saying. And you're very right some games just naturally create hype rather than rely on the presentation. Dota is right up there, I think, like fighting games in that its swings are more visceral. Starcraft from what I've seen is less explosive and needs those minute (but avalanche-like) swings to be hyped by the presentation and commentary. I could be wrong though, I'll defer to your expertise of the game ;)
 
DreamHack doesn't award seeding points because of how close it is to the actual Capcom Cup event. Win or go home. (Or lose to 1-2 players who are already qualified.)
 
Rhapsody said:
Can Gamerbee make it to Capcom Cup even if he doesn't get 1st at Dreamhack?
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If I'm not mistaken, yes it's possible. He would need to place at least 5-6th to get to get the points needed to overtake nuckledu and get the last spot based on points. If he gets 7-8th then he'll tie with nuckledu for points. This is all assuming the points of the other competitors in that point range remain the same as I'm not aware of who is attending the event.

Edit: Scratch that after reading kirblar's post.
 
FGC is supported from the ground up. Players keep the games alive and run grassroot events out of love for the game. They are the lifeblood that keep the scene thriving.

"Esports" is supported from the top down. LoL and Dota are as big as they because Valve and Riot inject buttloads of resources into it. As soon as the support stops trickling down however, the game gets left out in the shits (look at what happened to Halo and the like when they got dropped from MLG).

FGC grassroot growth feels more sustainable imo. Granted just because you're grassroots doesn't mean you can't up your presentation game and do all those nifty things that the professionals do either. It's just different ways of getting there. Either frontloading it all at the start and hoping you can stay there, opposed to slowly building your foundation and working your way up.
 
rookiejet said:
I get what you're saying. And you're very right some games just naturally create hype rather than rely on the presentation. Dota is right up there, I think, like fighting games in that its swings are more visceral. Starcraft from what I've seen is less explosive and needs those minute (but avalanche-like) swings to be hyped by the presentation and commentary. I could be wrong though, I'll defer to your expertise of the game ;)
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I'm surprised you got something out of my mindless thoughts lol. You're right though, it's on a person to person basis. I just don't find League fun to watch or get excited about, but I know quite a few people who would faint over CS counts.
Harhar, whatever expertise I had left is just muscle memory and several binders full of notes. I remember the hype I felt from starcraft was me being awed by ridiculous micro/macro and everyone's ability to keep calm. I was more excited by the raw feeling of setting up a folding chair and watching two people duke it out than I was going to a stadium to watch a KBS broadcast of a show. Also yeah, the explosive passion of the commentators really helped my excitement grow.
 
Starcraft is like a slug-match. You can think of every match being a FT10 fighting game match, where you slowly gain incremental advantage until it entirely snowballs into your favour. (I.E every time you successfully poke or whiff punish, you get the lifelead, except there's no rounds to reset the playing field. Every action counts from start to end. You got P'd on? Yea you're probably fucked for the rest of the match. Have fun coming back lol).
 
Astarte said:
For some people it becomes more than just a game. I mean, several people have given up their jobs and/or schooling just to play fighting games.
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They picked it up in the first place cause they had a passion for it which was derived from enjoying the game in the first place. Those who just do it for the money just end up burning out near the end cause they have only greed pushing them forward. At the end of the day its a game, but a very serious one at that without the playful connotation the word carries.

enzo_gt said:
I think Capcom at the very least came to the conclusion that the existing community needs to be considered and integrated, and they did a pretty good job of that, and if IPL didn't fold it would have been cool to see if that worked out well for everyone.
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Would have been nice if IPL didn't go under. Capcom is certainly following the right foot steps, lets hope the company doesn't go down under from their lackluster showing of competitive games, SF can only last so long on balance updates, new characters, and fantasy driven costumes.

Beesuit said:
FGC is supported from the ground up. Players keep the games alive and run grassroot events out of love for the game. They are the lifeblood that keep the scene thriving.

"Esports" is supported from the top down. LoL and Dota are as big as they because Valve and Riot inject buttloads of resources into it. As soon as the support stops trickling down however, the game gets left out in the shits (look at what happened to Halo and the like when they got dropped from MLG).

FGC grassroot growth feels more sustainable imo. Granted just because you're grassroots doesn't mean you can't up your presentation game and do all those nifty things that the professionals do either.
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All of this in a nutshell.
 
Beesuit said:
FGC is supported from the ground up. Players keep the games alive and run grassroot events out of love for the game. They are the lifeblood that keep the scene thriving.

"Esports" is supported from the top down. LoL and Dota are as big as they because Valve and Riot inject buttloads of resources into it. As soon as the support stops trickling down however, the game gets left out in the shits (look at what happened to Halo and the like when they got dropped from MLG).

FGC grassroot growth feels more sustainable imo. Granted just because you're grassroots doesn't mean you can't up your presentation game and do all those nifty things that the professionals do either. It's just different ways of getting there. Either frontloading it all at the start and hoping you can stay there, opposed to slowly building your foundation and working your way up.
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Well put.
 
I like how levelup does their streams and presentation.

Btw, i watched the canada cup GFs. Mike ross was terrible on commentary. Like a bad radio dj. Imo of course.
 
Beesuit said:
FGC is supported from the ground up. Players keep the games alive and run grassroot events out of love for the game. They are the lifeblood that keep the scene thriving.

"Esports" is supported from the top down. LoL and Dota are as big as they because Valve and Riot inject buttloads of resources into it. As soon as the support stops trickling down however, the game gets left out in the shits (look at what happened to Halo and the like when they got dropped from MLG).

FGC grassroot growth feels more sustainable imo. Granted just because you're grassroots doesn't mean you can't up your presentation game and do all those nifty things that the professionals do either. It's just different ways of getting there. Either frontloading it all at the start and hoping you can stay there, opposed to slowly building your foundation and working your way up.
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Great post.
 
Esports haven't been sustainable because of the extravagant spending more than anything. They fail to make money back or promote enough secondary sales to justify it which causes it to collapse eventually. The FGC as it is currently, has had to rely on limited funds to host tournaments and has generally protected themselves from catastrophic failure by not spending more than necessary. Esports could get away with spending less and keepign the professional up as necessary to make it more sustainable but the independent leagues haven't been very good with that in general.

Valve and Riot fueling their scenes is probably the best relationship as they can actually make money on their games directly while hosting a legit tournament scene, allowing their investment in capturing viewers to be much more effective. It's unlikely that they'll go the way of MLG or something without the games losing a lot of players but that's something that can happen even with FGs.
 
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INVOKING THE DUBSTEP
 
Shouta said:
Valve and Riot fueling their scenes is probably the best relationship as they can actually make money on their games directly while hosting a legit tournament scene, allowing their investment in capturing viewers to be much more effective. It's unlikely that they'll go the way of MLG or something without the games losing a lot of players but that's something that can happen even with FGs.
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This return on investment is very important as well. While I don't play the LoL or Dota, I'm sure those games are littered with micro-transactions all over the place. It's a constant revenue stream for the devs, so the more people they get playing the games, the bigger that income stream becomes. These tournaments can pretty much be considered marketing for them. I.E: In the case of Valve, the more people playing Dota, the more people there are using Steam, thus the larger the audience and exposure Steam gets to fill up its their virtual games supermarket.

Compare this to say fighting games, where you have the initial game purchase and then maybe costume/character DLC's on the side to make money from. The games just weren't designed to be monetised in same way and so I don't think there's as much incentives for devs to go balls out in supporting the games the way Riot and Valve does. Of course, there's the obvious size difference between the companies as well, meaning FG developers won't have the luxury of throwing around as much money.
 
Beesuit said:
Compare this to say fighting games, where you have the initial game purchase and then maybe costume/character DLC's on the side to make money from. The games just weren't designed to be monetised in same way and so I don't think there's as much incentives for devs to go balls out in supporting the games the way Riot and Valve does. Of course, there's the obvious size difference between the companies as well, meaning FG developers won't have the luxury of throwing around as much money.
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I think DOA is doing extremely well in this department just off costumes alone, even though it seems they have a smaller base than other fighting games. Even their free model works since you can always buy the full game or just a character you like and the costumes for him or her. They are still releasing new things and iirc they are also getting consistent patches to fix some stuff, so it's not like they are burning money to support it, since they are making it back. If Tekken followed this model, I think they could be successful if they can keep creating new content post-release, since they have a larger base and a lot of their non-customizeable costumes are very unique.

Another thing about DOA is that even if you do not pay a cent to play the f2p version, you are still a part of their model to make money, which is similar to other f2p games like LoL. By playing for free you are giving the people who do pay a playerbase to compete against, even if it's 1 out of 10 (or probably even more lopsided for something as large as LoL) that pays they are still making money off it.

edit: I don't think Tekken should hold back on customizeables and costumes to sell them later, but it would be awesome if every now and then they have more costumes for their characters after the game is released, like from guest artists or fan votes like DOA does, so they can get something new and unique down the line.
 
Yea exactly, which is why we've already seen Ultra get 2 rounds of costume so far as well.
They need to find more ways to make money within the game. Cross Tekken experimented with gems and we all know how that turned out lol
 
In my humble opinion, Capcom makes the best Fighting Games. I would love to see them make a fighting game with the Deep Down engine. And Marvel v Capcom 4!!!
 
enzo_gt said:
I'm not sure you need versatility for fighting games on PC, keyboards just flat out suck for them.
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Pffft.

Mr. X said:
Skullgirls Endless Beta still going strong!

Mike gave Double a new super https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8fRMBEf1ck

Beowulf almost beta ready too.

If you haven't played it since release, you missed 6 updates to the game. It's vastly different and improved.
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I really need to get my college stuff done so I can start playing again. High expectations for Beowulf.
 
Shouta said:
Esports haven't been sustainable because of the extravagant spending more than anything. They fail to make money back or promote enough secondary sales to justify it which causes it to collapse eventually. The FGC as it is currently, has had to rely on limited funds to host tournaments and has generally protected themselves from catastrophic failure by not spending more than necessary. Esports could get away with spending less and keepign the professional up as necessary to make it more sustainable but the independent leagues haven't been very good with that in general.

Valve and Riot fueling their scenes is probably the best relationship as they can actually make money on their games directly while hosting a legit tournament scene, allowing their investment in capturing viewers to be much more effective. It's unlikely that they'll go the way of MLG or something without the games losing a lot of players but that's something that can happen even with FGs.
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that and how many sponsors can come into the fgc field compared to pc games. Never gonna get that intel/asus/etc sponsors until somehow we move to pc, which will probably never happen
 
smurfx said:
i think alex valle has the right idea on how to present the events more professionally and still keep that "raw" fgc flavor to events. he just needs more help on the production side. imo level up is the closest to getting it right.
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I, too, like long breaks and dry commentary.
 
Maybe its just me but Tekken 7 doesnt look that much better than TTT2. Looks more like the difference between SF4 on PS3/360 vs SF4 on PC than the difference between T5 vs T6.
 
Rhapsody said:
Can Gamerbee make it to Capcom Cup even if he doesn't get 1st at Dreamhack?
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yeah, as long as everyone that places higher has already secured a spot

(....it's funny, in theory someone who places 9th could get a spot, of course that won't actually happen though)
 
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