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[Zephyrus]

Calling you lazy and ignorant is not an attack, they are descriptions of you based on your behavior. This post serves as additional justification. Your reasoning and understanding is poor. You have admittedly not read anything, yet claim no one is presenting any worthwhile arguments. How would you know?

Again you keep insulting me.

I'm not ignorant because I chose not to read everyone else's posts. I read the one that mattered to me. The first post. The one that explains what happened.

It's more than enough to allow me to give an opinion on the subject, which I did.

I have not claimed nobody presented any worthwhile arguments. I claimed I didn't care about them. See the difference?

You attacked me because my opinion didn't match yours. That's all there is to it. You're, like the mentally ill who made an issue out of a fucking shirt, trying to strip someone of their expressions until they conform and match yours.

Because that's the only way I'll get your rabid gaze off of me. If I start saying what you want me to say.

 

[Meh3D]

Please show me this twitter message.
Please show me how The Verge made everything up including the setting of the ESA HQ.



It is a shirt that has scantily clad women as decoration, i.e. women are literally sex objects. Some people do not believe that such a shirt sends a positive message and that it definitely doesn't belong on such a public outing. STEM fields already have an ongoing discussion about the treatment of women, this feeds into said discussion.

Still, Taylor's personal apology doesn't make up for the fact that no one at ESA saw fit to stop him from representing the Space community with clothing that demeans 50 percent of the world's population. No one asked him to take it off, because presumably they didn't think about it. It wasn't worth worrying about.

What exactly are they implying here? I thought they were implying they probably should of said something because people may get offended. Then the very next paragraph.

This is the sort of casual misogyny that stops women from entering certain scientific fields. They see a guy like that on TV and they don't feel welcome. They see a poster of greased up women in a colleague's office and they know they aren't respected. They hear comments about "bitches" while out at a bar with fellow science students, and they decide to change majors. And those are the women who actually make it that far. Those are the few who persevered even when they were discouraged from pursuing degrees in physics, chemistry, and math throughout high school. These are the women who forged on despite the fact that they were told by elementary school classmates and the media at large that girls who like science are nerdy and unattractive. This is the climate women who dream of working at NASA or the ESA come up against, every single day. This shirt is representative of all of that, and the ESA has yet to issue a statement or apologize for that.

Excuse me, but what just happend there? They make a claim (the casual misogyny) and then proceed with a story ("They see a poster...") Reading onward the article now based on this story continues to make more claims. Then they tie that two facts, the scientist wore this shirt and the ESA has not apologized by putting them in the same sentence. That is some serious irresponsible reverse engineering. Or simply put, a fabrication. The article fails to make any connection. It tries to get you emotionally involved and then proceed to tell you that all is this perpetuated by this shirt.


https://mobile.twitter.com/roseveleth/status/532538957490561024/photo/1

This tweet that seems to have started at all. I don't blame her for this controversy. Rather, I dislike her comment because it irresponsibly implied so much about sexism and this shirt. It's almost hypocrital they way it seems to make her sound like someone who knows anything about sexism.

.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

The point of this and the last 20+ pages of discussion is that it's just not simple.

On one respect, the "pro-shirt" angle, if you could say is:
= It's just a shirt
= He did something amazing and should not have to apologize for it
= This is taking away from the true achievement
= He should be himself, even if it means a sexy shirt
= I want that shirt
= Girls can wear a shirt with sexy men on it if they want and no one will care
= The shirt does not stop women from entering the field; there are other barriers

The other is more or less "anti-shirt" or with reservations:
= STEM has an underrepresentation of female scientists; it's a boys club and wearing this might not by why, but expose that this may be true if such an item isn't given even a raised eyebrow in his particular circle
= This was a nationally televised event; his attire was unprofessional and in poor taste for something seen by a wide audience, male and female
= ...On that note, the shirt was simply tacky, pointless, and it's hard to imagine who would spend money on it....
= People hand waiving this may be swayed to "discreet sexism" where we've been taught to find this sort of thing ok whereas such an idea/concept doesn't really cross over or translate into women's fashion choices and selections (women don't have or opt for "sexy man shirts" as often as men seem to have or have available)
= Women as sexually pleasing eye candy is an old, dated, and misrepresentation of honest, hard-working women.

I definitely feel a pick and choose works best. This is "just a shirt" but there is a lot to read in between the lines that have made this dialogue go on as long as it has.

I also still argue more disappointing than the actual shirt is peoples "blind okays" to the shirt as "just a shirt" that at all a topic worth discussing and basically telling SJW's to shut up....

Yes. Agree. Specially bolded underlined part. Every time someone comes in the thread wondering why the thread had gotten so big over something so trivial or commenting how outrageous the outrage over the shirt is, I cant help but wonder if they at least would spend 3 minutes to see the cause that the thread is so bulky is mostly with drop-in statements on how they scoff over this whole matter.

:>

The shirt in and of itself is not a problem

The fact that he rocked that motherfucker in an international interview is laughable

The fact that people are harassing the poor dude over it is a problem

The fact that people are losing their shit over the apology (a.k.a. his personal recognition that he did something off which, unless I've missed some follow up article, was not forced out of him) is a problem

All of this post.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Not based on the fact you disagree, but the manner and reasons for which you disagree. Your position is flawed and doesn't make sense. You constantly erect strawmen and extend points to absurdity so you can say "well I don't want what I just made up to happen, therefore you're wrong."

People have tried to be very patient with you but you are not arguing in good faith and it's clear you came in with predispositions and have no desire to question or examine them.

Yes, I have predispositions. I am willing to question and examine them, surprisingly enough that's how I arrived at my current views on pretty much all my political positions. I come from a family that's basically a conservative archetype and was raised that way (farming on one side, business on the other and quite financially secure, grew up in a relatively small country town, where my family owned one of the major businesses). The first time I voted it was for my country's conservative party. Through examining other ideas, I've ended up roughly centre-left (in the European sense, which don't think has an actual meaningful US equivalent and its equivalent is the most left-wing party of any note in Australia (Greens)) with some areas where I adhere closer to libertarian views (largely free expression / censorship).

I fully support marriage equality (and go a bit beyond the norm in that I support marriage rights whatever the configuration of your marriage is as long as all participants have freely give informed consent and that no harm comes to anyone as a result of it). I accept affirmative action as a necessary evil in the short term (and I mean that in the societal sense, so it could well surpass my lifetime) in order to correct ingrained institution and social biases against disadvantage racial groups / women and support it for that reason, I strongly support a social safety net (including universal healthcare, and access to education, as well as appropriate social measures to mean people aren't obligated to take poor jobs just to subsist).

I believe that feminism has achieved many positive outcomes and think its a positive force and am only concerned about somethings that I think may, perhaps be a bridge too far, because they directly clash with those areas in which I'm more libertarianish. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise (my acceptance of affirmative action is less than half a decade old).

My positions are difficult to budge because I have actually given them a great deal of though, and may be hard to follow because I have arrived at many Left positions through what is probably traditionally conservative reasoning given my upbringing. In terms of outcomes I believe the Left generally serves the causes of justice, individuality and freedom better in practical terms than the Right usually does (hell even on matters of free expression and censorship the left is usually no worse than the Right in practice, the Right just talk a better game these days thanks to Libertarians but are still their usual selves in practice).

You really need to ditch the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally moronic or being deliberately obtuse or insufficiently educated on the topic if you want to win anyone to your cause, and if you truly believe someone lacks valuable information I suggest providing it rather than being aggressive.

 

[KHarvey16]

I'm not ignorant because I chose not to read everyone else's posts.

Lol.

 

[Warm Machine]

I'm sure that everyone can agree to the following:

1. Women have been and continue to be sexually objectified.
2. There is a vast discrepancy in gender representation in STEM fields.
3. There are many factors that are the cause of sexist attitudes.

1. This will never go away ever. It is how human beings are wired and how our culture as men and women has developed. It is also going to exist as long as art is made and people have opinions.
2. Yes, but the causes of that are multitude.
3. Yes and sexist attitudes in terms of gender intelligence or ability where A is better at X task than gender B is a core societal attitude that needs to change.

 

[Meh3D]

I'm still learning every day and something I’ve learned that I would like to share with you all is to not be combative when trying to convey an idea, opinion, or piece of information. To have a discussion you want people to come in not be pushed away. Something I try to practice as it does me no good otherwise. Sexism is a complex problem and the solution is even more complex. The more your have on your side the better.

No, I do not look at the shirt as perpetuating sexism nor has anything like it been responsible for situations in which I have been discriminated against. It's people's actions. I choose to empower myself by helping trying to help those that have it the worst. I think a solution is to bring the different groups together and become stronger as a whole. But first I need to be able to identify who those people are. There is a lot more to sexism then being a woman. Articles like the one from the Verge or a particular persons tweet do nothing to acknowledge, help, or bring awareness those people and the issues they face.

 

[KHarvey16]

You really need to ditch the idea that anyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally moronic or being deliberately obtuse or insufficiently educated on the topic if you want to win anyone to your cause, and if you truly believe someone lacks valuable information I suggest providing it rather than being aggressive.

I don't feel that way about everyone that disagrees with me. I know it's comforting for you to imagine I do, but as many of us have been trying to impress upon you what is comfortable to you isn't necessarily correct.

You are arguing against imagined positions, not what's actually being presented. It has been provided to you again and again and all you do is mangle it.

 

[Dice//]

1. Women have been and continue to be sexually objectified.

1. This will never go away ever. It is how human beings are wired and how our culture as men and women has developed. It is also going to exist as long as art is made and people have opinions.

Well that fucking sucks.
Better let the fellas have what they want then, huh.

I'm still learning every day and something I’ve learned that I would like to share with you all is to not be combative when trying to convey an idea, opinion, or piece of information. To have a discussion you want people to come in not be pushed away. Something I try to practice as it does me no good otherwise. Sexism is a complex problem and the solution is even more complex. The more your have on your side the better.

There have barely been any BANS handed out, and gender politics and gaf usually invite them. So I'd like to argue here, at least, we're playing pretty friendly.

 

[Stet]

If he didn't want people to talk about his shirt he would've worn a normal shirt, which is why it's laughable that people are lamenting that the shirt has overshadowed Rosetta. Of course it is. It's a shirt made to be provocative. He torpedoed his own interview, and if I were anyone on his team I'd be furious.

That's why this is sad. He's a grown man and he made the ESA's accomplishment about him rather than about the accomplishment.




And that's ignoring the subject matter of the shirt itself.

 

[3phemeral]

1. This will never go away ever. It is how human beings are wired and how our culture as men and women has developed. It is also going to exist as long as art is made and people have opinions.
2. Yes, but the causes of that are multitude.
3. Yes and sexist attitudes in terms of gender intelligence or ability where A is better at X task than gender B is a core societal attitude that needs to change.

1. Humans are biologically wired to do many things, but what makes us human is our ability to observe our behaviors and make necessary changes for the embetterment of our society.
2. Which makes it a complex issue that requires well thought-out solutions.
3. Your No.1 violates your No. 3, but I agree with your conclusion.

 

[Dice//]

If he didn't want people to talk about his shirt he would've worn a normal shirt, which is why it's laughable that people are lamenting that the shirt has overshadowed Rosetta. Of course it is. It's a shirt made to be provocative. He torpedoed his own interview, and if I were anyone on his team I'd be furious.

That's why this is sad. He's a grown man and he made the ESA's accomplishment about him rather than about the accomplishment.

And that's ignoring the subject matter of the shirt itself.

THIS, a thousand times THIS!

 

[Zephyrus]

Lol.

oh man that sure showed me. The rabid forum user laughed at me.

I'm now depressed because someone unable to accept different opinions laughed at me.

What is it you want me to say?

That I care that the shirt is sexually offensive and downright opressive to women and that the man should have never wore such an attire on an interview on national television, which gives us the idea that women might feel reluctant to work on such an environment based on the vast discrepancy in gender representation in STEM fields?

Why would I when I just don't care?

Why would I when the same women judge and mock a man for working in a female dominated market?


Until you're able to accept other's opinions, don't start arguments with them. You are an ass to everyone who didn't share your views.

I don't. Probably never will.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

If he didn't want people to talk about his shirt he would've worn a normal shirt, which is why it's laughable that people are lamenting that the shirt has overshadowed Rosetta. Of course it is. It's a shirt made to be provocative. He torpedoed his own interview, and if I were anyone on his team I'd be furious.

That's why this is sad. He's a grown man and he made the ESA's accomplishment about him rather than about the accomplishment.




And that's ignoring the subject matter of the shirt itself.

A shining beacon of rational stance here <3

 

[berzeli]

What exactly are they implying here? I thought they were implying they probably should of said something because people may get offended. Then the very next paragraph.

They aren't really implying anything, they're stating that someone should have taken issue with his shirt, no one did, they find that problematic.

Excuse me, but what just happend there? They make a claim (the casual misogyny) and then proceed with a story ("They see a poster...") Reading onward the article now based on this story continues to make more claims. Then they tie that two facts, the scientist wore this shirt and the ESA has not apologized by putting them in the same sentence. That is some serious irresponsible reverse engineering. Or simply put, a fabrication. The article fails to make any connection. It tries to get you emotionally involved and then proceed to tell you that all is this perpetuated by this shirt.

It isn't about the shirt. It is what the shirt illustrates. The shirt illustrates the culture of casual sexism they described and they want an explanation from ESA why they thought it was appropriate. Which ESA implicitly did by allowing Matt Taylor to represent their organisation wearing that shirt.

https://mobile.twitter.com/roseveleth/status/532538957490561024/photo/1
This tweet that seems to have started at all. I don't blame her for this controversy. Rather, I dislike her comment because it irresponsibly implied so much about sexism and this shirt. It's almost hypocrital they way it seems to make her sound like someone who knows anything about sexism.
.

A lot of women and minorities don't find themselves welcome in STEM fields and using imagery that women find offensive probably won't make them feel more at home. Yet again, it is what the shirt illustrates. I don't see any hypocrisy in her statement and I don't see how you possibly could use that tweet to make a judgement about how much she knows about sexism.

 

[Transhuman]

THIS, a thousand times THIS!

I think it's possible he was just completely oblivious to it. The whole "Absent-minded professor" stereotype exists for a reason.

 

[KHarvey16]

oh man that sure showed me. The rabid forum user laughed at me.

I'm now depressed because someone unable to accept different opinions laughed at me.

What is it you want me to say?

That I care that the shirt is sexually offensive and downright opressive to women and that the man should have never wore such an attire on an interview on national television, which gives us the idea that women might feel reluctant to work on such an environment based on the vast discrepancy in gender representation in STEM fields?

Why would I when I just don't care?

Why would I when the same women judge and mock a man for working in a female dominated market?


Until you're able to accept others opinion's, don't start arguments with them. You are an ass to everyone who didn't share your views.

I don't. Probably never will.

I was laughing at you describing your ignorance (not reading posts) and then claiming that doesn't make you ignorant. It's funny and was really the most important lesson to take away from what you posted.

Also you seem to care so little that you typed all that out and continue this conversation. I think on top of being willfully ignorant and lazy you're also dishonest with us and yourself.

 

[IcedTea]

That's why this is sad. He's a grown man and he made the ESA's accomplishment about him rather than about the accomplishment.

I know, right? Fire his stupid ass and get him out of this industry. It's just pathetic how he's made such a big deal over this.

 

[Dugna]

It's sad that he actually had to apologize about a measly shirt when he and the team he's with will probably shape the way we look at everything in space.

You know what the media could have done, they could have actually talked about the women who're on the team and show their accomplishments. They could have gone "Ohh hey look at these awesome great women, get to learn more about them and their role in this historic achievement of mankind" But no it had to be about a freaking shirt that offended somebodies sensibilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqevO_zrxsA With the way things are going we all might as well go into a deep dark basement and sit there and do nothing.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I would agree to question him if he was a sexist because he chose the shirt at a shop and wore it. But this shirt was made by specifically by a woman (paradox created in this situation) as a gift who made it for him to wear. So before you question him, you ask yourself why his female friend made it and if she herself thinks her shirt is a sexist representation of women. If this was a man who made the shirt which is believed to be sexist that would change the matter completely as the suggestion says due to historical perspective of men but people are asking why he wore a shirt which is sexist towards women but the shirt itself was made for him as a gift by a woman.

Can someone answer this ?

 

[PsychBat!]

I think it's possible he was just completely oblivious to it.

Pretty sure no one actually cares about that. No one cares that it was a gift from a friend.
It's a tacky shirt no doubt, but to say that he wore it with the intention to overshadow the news of a probe landing on a comet is absurd.

 

[JNA]

Well that convo escalated quickly.

 

[karasu]

If he didn't want people to talk about his shirt he would've worn a normal shirt, which is why it's laughable that people are lamenting that the shirt has overshadowed Rosetta. Of course it is. It's a shirt made to be provocative. He torpedoed his own interview, and if I were anyone on his team I'd be furious.

That's why this is sad. He's a grown man and he made the ESA's accomplishment about him rather than about the accomplishment.




And that's ignoring the subject matter of the shirt itself.

He just wore the stupid shirt, everyone else is choosing to focus on the thing and make it a hot topic. People start feeling all important when they get offended and they refuse to let go of the most trivial of offenses. That shirt is nothing without an audience to take the bait.

 

[KHarvey16]

I would agree to question him if he was a sexist because he chose the shirt at a shop and wore it. But this shirt was made by specifically by a woman (paradox created in this situation) as a gift who made it for him to wear. So before you question him, you ask yourself why his female friend made it and if she herself thinks her shirt is a sexist representation of women. If this was a man who made the shirt which is believed to be sexist that would change the matter completely as the suggestion says but people are asking why he wore a shirt which is sexist towards women but the shirt itself was made for him as a gift by a woman.

Can someone answer this ?

It's been addressed multiple times.

Should Ray Rice be punished if a woman wears his jersey and supports him? It's completely irrelevant whether or not she sees an issue.

 

[Maninthemirror]

It's been addressed multiple times.

Should Ray Rice be punished if a woman wears his jersey and supports him? It's completely irrelevant whether or not she sees an issue.

That's not even close to the equivalent comparison. The woman didn't wear anyone's shirt. The shirt was custommade for this man by a woman to wear . A shirt which then people say is sexist towards women (but the shirt is made by a woman who chose to create those designs for him)

 

[karasu]

It's been addressed multiple times.

Should Ray Rice be punished if a woman wears his jersey and supports him? It's completely irrelevant whether or not she sees an issue.

False equivalence.

 

[KHarvey16]

That's not even close to the comparison. The woman didn't wear anyone's shirt. The shirt was custommade for this man by a woman to wear . A shirt which then people say is sexist towards women (but the shirt is made by a woman who chose to create those designs for him)

A woman can create a shirt that is sexist in a professional context.

False equivalence.

No equivalence was drawn other than to the reasoning displayed.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Pretty sure no one actually cares about that. No one cares that it was a gift from a friend.
It's a tacky shirt no doubt, but to say that he wore it with the intention to overshadow the news of a probe landing on a comet is absurd.

I think he wore it because it was cool to him and that he wanted to make a statement, maybe, say, that not all scientists are boring and mild-mannered seeming. I dont know.

Regardless, it is a shirt that makes a statement, or the very least attracting attention and comments (in comparison against the usual plain-coloured shirts).

Judging by the context, I would suggest that the interview is not the right time to wear such statement-making attire, cuz it was supposed to be about the probe-landing, and nothing else.

But, people are prone to make mishap of judgments and personally, as a woman, I am not offended by the shirt. I do think it is tacky. But this should not have been about him and his shirt :< He ruined that interview. Even if it was unintentionally done.

 

[Maninthemirror]

A woman can create a shirt that is sexist in a professional context.



No equivalence was drawn other than to the reasoning displayed.

You just created a paradox. The woman custom made a shirt which is sexist towards a women for a man to wear ?

 

[Oersted]

I would agree to question him if he was a sexist because he chose the shirt at a shop and wore it. But this shirt was made by specifically by a woman (paradox created in this situation) as a gift who made it for him to wear. So before you question him, you ask yourself why his female friend made it and if she herself thinks her shirt is a sexist representation of women. If this was a man who made the shirt which is believed to be sexist that would change the matter completely as the suggestion says due to historical perspective of men but people are asking why he wore a shirt which is sexist towards women but the shirt itself was made for him as a gift by a woman.

Can someone answer this ?

Afro-Americans can be racist, women sexist, jews antisemetic... in short, "but it was done by group XY" was never ever a good point. It is using the gender/race/religion/etc as a shield and nothing else.

 

[Dice//]

I think it's possible he was just completely oblivious to it. The whole "Absent-minded professor" stereotype exists for a reason.

Oh dear, are you sure that's a path you want to go down? What other stereotypes should we excuse for being true?

 

[KHarvey16]

You just created a paradox. The woman custom made a shirt which is sexist towards a women for a man to wear ?

That...isn't a paradox.

 

[Zephyrus]

I was laughing at you describing your ignorance (not reading posts) and then claiming that doesn't make you ignorant. It's funny and was really the most important lesson to take away from what you posted.

Also you seem to care so little that you typed all that out and continue this conversation. I think on top of being willfully ignorant and lazy you're also dishonest with us and yourself.

again you mistake my lack of interest with ignorance.

You're also unable to understand that the only reason I'm talking to you and explaining my views is because you keep talking to me.

Your animosity towards me has thus far made me unable to ever share your opinion no matter how educated it might me.


I didn't even give my opinion on wether or not I agree'd with either side on my first post. I just called them whinners. That's all I did before incurring the wrath of the tremendously amusing rabid forum user.

 

[JNA]

It's sad that he actually had to apologize about a measly shirt when he and the team he's with will probably shape the way we look at everything in space.

You know what the media could have done, they could have actually talked about the women who're on the team and show their accomplishments. They could have gone "Ohh hey look at these awesome great women, get to learn more about them and their role in this historic achievement of mankind" But no it had to be about a freaking shirt that offended somebodies sensibilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqevO_zrxsA With the way things are going we all might as well go into a deep dark basement and sit there and do nothing.

I haven't legit laughed at a college humor video In a long time...until today.

That was amazing. Thanks for sharing it, I loved it. XD

 

[Maninthemirror]

That...isn't a paradox.

You know what you are saying that you agree with the following statement just to make sure:

"The woman created a shirt which people call sexist towards women for her male friend to wear"

 

[KHarvey16]

again you mistake my lack of interest with ignorance.

You're also unable to understand that the only reason I'm talking to you and explaining my views is because you keep talking to me.

Your animosity towards me has thus far made me unable to ever share your opinion no matter how educated it might me.


I didn't even give my opinion on wether or not I agree'd with either side on my first post. I just called them whinners. That's all I did before incurring the wrath of the tremendously amusing rabid forum user.

Ignorance is a lack of information. If you don't read a post you are ignorant of its contents, and if you don't read any posts you're ignorant of the ideas and arguments presented in this thread. The reason for this ignorance is laziness.

 

[GuiltyBystander]

What I learned from all of this: Chris Plante is an obnoxious human being and a horrible writer.

 

[Zephyrus]

Well that convo escalated quickly.

huh... never thought I'd share my opinion with totalbiscuit of all people.

You have one of those people he talks about right here in this thread. Say Hi! Harvey.

 

[berzeli]

You know what you are saying that you agree with the following statement just to make sure:

"The woman created a shirt which people call sexist towards women for her male friend to wear"

That isn't a paradox. Like not even close to being one.

Context is a thing that is quite important.

 

[Log4Girlz]

He could have had a shirt filed with professionally dressed women doing incredible things in science. But those are practically non-existent compared to sexy lady shirts. I wonder why?

 

[KHarvey16]

You know what you are saying that you agree with the following statement just to make sure:

"The woman created a shirt which people call sexist towards women for her male friend to wear"

I think the woman created a shirt that, when worn as it was, where it was, became a symptom of the gender issues prevalent in the fields of science, engineering and technology. The creator not recognizing this does not present a paradox or a contradiction and is in fact wholly irrelevant to the discussion at large.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I don't feel that way about everyone that disagrees with me. I know it's comforting for you to imagine I do, but as many of us have been trying to impress upon you what is comfortable to you isn't necessarily correct.

You are arguing against imagined positions, not what's actually being presented. It has been provided to you again and again and all you do is mangle it.

And yet none of you have made an argument that I find convincing. To me it's just "Trust us, we mean well" handwaving. Or blatant denials of the practical outcomes of certain forms of social censure, which can result in the destruction of careers that are only tangentially related to the issue, as if its a meaningless thing or a necessary cost. Unusual punishment is apparently like free speech only a thing for governments to be concerned with and if social movements have the same outcomes ,in this day and age, well that's just too bad.

Or "Please accept these limitations on your conduct so that a disadvantaged group feels more comfortable but no such limitations need apply to them because they (lack privilege/don't have the same context)" which is an argument that I'm not unsympathetic too. I just think that as a path to equality its largely the wrong direction , even though in certain extreme situations I would probably support it since its pretty much the argument for affirmative action. I just do not think someones choice of shirt, unless it makes a deliberately offensive statement approaches anywhere near that situation. But heck I think the concept of 'professional' dress is itself bizarre, I've never really much cared what anyone wears as long as it wasn't deliberately offensive (which may be a manifestation of my privilege but I have never lived in a world where I am not a well-off straight white cis-gendered male and I live in a country where being an Atheist isn't a big deal, so even that deviation from WASP orthodoxy doesn't avail me much or one where those things aren't privileged, so so its not something I can verify in a meaningful way).

I think at a fundamental level we just disagree on something in our world views, and neither of us have communicated what that is well enough for it to be drawn out. I'm kind of used to see this, since I've never exactly been able to tease out exactly why Libertarians favor the economic right (which I see as inherently largely incompatible with the social left but they don't and I've never been able to pin down why this is).

I think I'm going to have to let this topic go though, NeoGAF is not a place where I'm comfortable putting forward a detailed defense of even limited libertarian views and I suspect our disagreement lies somewhere therein.

 

[Zephyrus]

Ignorance is a lack of information. If you don't read a post you are ignorant of its contents, and if you don't read any posts your ignorant of the ideas and arguments presented in this thread. The reason for this ignorance is laziness.

But I had no lack of information. All I needed to form an opinion on the subject was right there on the very first post of the person who created the thread. And I didn't even give my opinion in the first post. I just called the people who were outraged, whinners.

Your shallow and pathetic opinion on the subject means nothing to me because I frankly don't give a rat's ass about what you or others think on the subject.

Something your measly intellect has thus far not been able to understand.

I responded to you because you responded to me. And I grew more and more impatient because of utterly repulsive your antagonistic behavior was whenever you spat your words at me.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

You spelled whiners wrong. Numerously.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

No one intelligent gives Total Biscuit any honest consideration lol

#ethicsinspacejournalism

 

[berzeli]

And yet none of you have made an argument that I find convincing. To me it's just "Trust us, we mean well" handwaving. Or blatant denials of the practical outcomes of certain forms of social censure, which can result in the destruction of careers that are only tangentially related to the issue, as if its a meaningless thing or a necessary cost. Unusual punishment is apparently like free speech only a thing for governments to be concerned with and if social movements have the same outcomes ,in this day and age, well that's just too bad.

Or "Please accept these limitations on your conduct so that a disadvantaged group feels more comfortable but no such limitations need apply to them because they (lack privilege/don't have the same context)" which is an argument that I'm not unsympathetic too. I just think that as a path to equality its largely the wrong direction , even though in certain extreme situations I would probably support it since its pretty much the argument for affirmative action. I just do not think someones choice of shirt. unless it makes a deliberately offensive statement approaches that situation. But heck I think the concept of 'professional' dress is itself bizarre, I've never really much cared what anyone wears as long as it wasn't deliberately offensive (which may be a manifestation of my privilege but I have never lived in a world where I am not a well-off straight white cis-gendered male and I live in a country where being an Atheist isn't a big deal, so even that deviation from WASP orthodoxy doesn't avail me much or one where those things aren't privileged, so so its not something I can verify in a meaningful way).

I think at a fundamental level we just disagree on something in our world views, and neither of us have communicated what that is well enough for it to be drawn out. I'm kind of used to see this, since I've never exactly been able to tease out exactly why Libertarians favor the economic right (which I see as inherently largely incompatible with the social left but they don't and I've never been able to pin down why this is).

I think I'm going to have to let this topic go though, NeoGAF is not a place where I'm comfortable putting forward a detailed defense of even limited libertarian views and I suspect our disagreement lies somewhere therein.

I'm going to quote myself from the last page (since you seem to have skipped that entirely):

Your entire premise is insane, there is nothing I can say that will give you the answer you want. The ideal "cost of inclusiveness to individuality" is none, it is possible to be an individual without offending someone. I don't know how you think that there is an easily understandable definition of what individuality is that you can quantify and put limits to.

The ideal society is also an individual concept so yet again I'm not sure how I'm supposed to give you an answer that you will accept.

This is not so much a difference in world view in complete denial of reality.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

You just created a paradox. The woman custom made a shirt which is sexist towards a women for a man to wear ?

Even if you were right that this was a paradox (you aren't) your post assumes that women can't be misogyinist, which is also an incorrect assumption.

 

[Zephyrus]

You spelled whiners wrong. Numerously.

not a native english speaker. In my defense I had english language as a class for 3 years.
Forgive me for any error in my grammar.

 

[KHarvey16]

And yet none of you have made an argument that I find convincing. To me it's just "Trust us, we mean well" handwaving. Or blatant denials of the practical outcomes of certain forms of social censure, which can result in the destruction of careers that are only tangentially related to the issue, as if its a meaningless thing or a necessary cost. Unusual punishment is apparently like free speech only a thing for governments to be concerned with and if social movements have the same outcomes ,in this day and age, well that's just too bad.

Or "Please accept these limitations on your conduct so that a disadvantaged group feels more comfortable but no such limitations need apply to them because they (lack privilege/don't have the same context)" which is an argument that I'm not unsympathetic too. I just think that as a path to equality its largely the wrong direction , even though in certain extreme situations I would probably support it since its pretty much the argument for affirmative action. I just do not think someones choice of shirt. unless it makes a deliberately offensive statement approaches that situation. But heck I think the concept of 'professional' dress is itself bizarre, I've never really much cared what anyone wears as long as it wasn't deliberately offensive (which may be a manifestation of my privilege but I have never lived in a world where I am not a well-off straight white cis-gendered male and I live in a country where being an Atheist isn't a big deal, so even that deviation from WASP orthodoxy doesn't avail me much or one where those things aren't privileged, so so its not something I can verify in a meaningful way).

I think at a fundamental level we just disagree on something in our world views, and neither of us have communicated what that is well enough for it to be drawn out. I'm kind of used to see this, since I've never exactly been able to tease out exactly why Libertarians favor the economic right (which I see as inherently largely incompatible with the social left but they don't and I've never been able to pin down why this is).

I think I'm going to have to let this topic go though, NeoGAF is not a place where I'm comfortable putting forward a detailed defense of even limited libertarian views and I suspect our disagreement lies somewhere therein.

Our disagreement lies in your inability to accept an argument as presented. People want society at large to recognize the deep rooted issues that lead to that shirt being worn by that man in that situation. No one wants to take away your ability to express yourself. You just insist that addressing this in any way will inevitably lead to all of us being stripped of everything we hold dear and it's absolutely ridiculous. Your entire platform is a strawman.

 

[Zephyrus]

No one intelligent gives Total Biscuit any honest consideration lol

#ethicsinspacejournalism

no one intelligent mistakes Ethic with Morals.