Yes. It's just a tacky shirt. He isn't trying to oppress women in science. Believe it or not.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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Yes. It's just a tacky shirt. He isn't trying to oppress women in science. Believe it or not.
Scrutiny and shameful responses that is essentially bullying is an obvious response to wearing the shirt? And the assumption that he's the SOLE malefactor of the entire situation gone completely out of hand is not ridiculous to you in any way? No one else finds that dog piling on the guy is wrong and that blaming him for the entire thing does NOT help?
I can agree with calling him out wearing that shirt will cause unwanted attention, and if that's the case then how come no one stopped him at all? No one spoke up to tell him it was wrong, no one said a god damn thing as far as we are aware.
How is ignoring the entirety of the social context, and the opinions of differently-minded people, analyzing an issue with nuance?
Maninthemirror
Banned
Wait , people actually thought the shirt represented a belief that women in science should be oppressed ?
Maninthemirror
Banned
Because in reality I think people are trying to create a situation where no one,both the man and the woman didn't intend there to be one apart from those who thought there should be one
There are several posters here who have thought that as well, I think.
PhineBuyM3
Member
To sensible people, there isn't a problem with the shirt. But to those that lie in wait (patiently) hoping to find something, anything to give their day meaning and to then cause a furor of indignation and outrage... its like finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
Who's saying that it was jntended to be offensive? And regardless, why would intent be the deciding factor?
I mean, you would agree that actions can have unintended consequences right?
Maninthemirror
Banned
Yes but only if people over react or get over zealous or create issues out non-intentional fashion
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
.... so cute. i see that "sensible people" are not above finding this thread to come in and bitch in :>
.... tell me, did doing so give your day meaning? is it like finding a pot of gold?
Perfect. Let's cut the guy some slack then. Chalk up a poor wardrobe choice to just that. Lets celebrate his scientific achievement, rather than shit on his personal tastes.
Would you also agree that people can approach the same situation with a different understanding of what it may mean or represent? That people contextualize the same things differently based on their own experiences?
Hm, guess I was wrong then.
no sarcasm
The guy handled it just fine. He recognized his mistake and he apologized. Now we're discussing the larger issue and trying to explain it to folks more interested in dropping by to let everyone know how much they don't care.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Yes but some things can simply be he wore a colorful shirt with an odd fashion choice which wasn't intended by the creator or wearer as being offensive, people should laugh at the choice as being odd rather than offensive but to those who are offended don't bring the unintending person to tears over a fashion sense but instead people made this bigger than the science because it never should have been more than the mohawk guy reaction
Dice//
Banned
What's funny is that we're not really talking about him. We've been there and done that, almost. Honestly, the topic has been in large part fuelled by people who insist on popping in with "it's just a tshirt, lol" comments when there's much more to read between the lines and so much more dialogue that's fueled these 20 pages (what else do you think we've been talking about?).
You literally need not look more than two pages before this one to dig up a lot more on this. Gaf threads like this start as "the news" but generally change to debates.
The "anti-shirt" crowd stopped criticizing Taylor after he gave what struck me as a pretty sincere and heartfelt apology. Instead we've had to argue against people running into this thread to make "I don't understand how anyone could POSSIBLY be offended" drivebys and attack strawmen ("why are you saying Taylor HATES WOMEN")
When you say:
I get the impression you felt his actions were deliberate in some way. Am I misunderstanding that quote of yours?
Maninthemirror
Banned
That again counters the point that neither the creator or the wearer thought the shirt was intended or was offensive. Anything can be offensive to anyone Nowadays but don't bring a person to tears over a fashion sense.
And would you agree, because people frame issues through the lenses of separate life experiences, that you, yourself, may be missing some information in regards to the potential meaning of a particular item or thing? And that if you may, in fact, be missing some vital piece of contextualizing information, then it becomes useful to listen to the opinions of others?
Dice//
Banned
Yep. It wasn't about him, I left Matt Taylor's name out of it. But when people keep bring up THE SHIRT, I gotta talk THE SHIRT. Stop narrowing what i'm saying and try to read maybe a few of my posts before hammering at me for a specific one.
Maninthemirror
Banned
People can create context where none should exist. The debate over STEM or sexism should NOT be related to this guy or his shirt when neither were intentioned to be one. It's another topic than this entirely. This shouldn't have been shirtstorm to begin with and if it's not about the guy anymore or the shirt then we move on to another topic entirely
He wasn't upset because people told him his shirt was ugly.
Maninthemirror
Banned
He was upset because people were offended, those that brought him to tears. He shouldn't have had to come to tears in the first place
Herpes Reasons
Banned
No, no you shouldn't think a second thought at all to the nature of the outfit. It's a freaking shirt with scantily clad women on it. It's not a shirt with a statement that many here are making it to be. Let me guess, you see someone reading Maxim and you get offended. Someone says they watch porn and you think gendered social systems. ITS A SHIRT.
OK, so, you do agree that people can have different opinions or value judgments but you don't agree that other people's opinions matter? You are the arbiter of truth?
How about this, do you think that systemic social patterns are an observable phenomenon?
Why are you 100% certain that he was "brought to tears" by mean SJW bullies, rather than genuinely believing he made a mistake?
Do you really believe that there are no situations where it would be inappropriate to read/watch/discuss those things, or are you that disingenuous?
I find it funny his intentions are paramount to your argument when you are trying to convince us nothing here is offensive, but his behavior when apologizing is meaningless and unimportant when it might be an indication that he believes it was wrong as well. It seemed he understood what it meant and this effected him.
The point being made is that the fact he didn't question wearing the shirt is a result of the gender issues prevalent in the sciences and engineering. You don't seem to be understanding the position you're arguing against.
Maninthemirror
Banned
This is not that situation. At least for majority of the people I see commenting on it
What ?
He was apologizing because he seemed to genuinely think due to the outrage and anger and hate that this perhaps was an offensive shirt to them and everyone maybe (when in reality to most people it isn't) . This should have ended in a small quip about the loud fashion sense like that Mohawk guy and end of it because when both sexes originally involved with the creating and wearing of THR shirt are not intending to offend or offend why should you be calling anything sexist when it's not intentioned
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Do you see the leap you make here? You're speaking for him.
You aren't making sense. No one is making this an issue because it was "loud fashion sense," and sexism can't be objectively declared by the person wearing it or the person who created it.
Maninthemirror
Banned
And you are speaking for those offended by a SHIRT which was and is not intended to offend beyond those who want it to be offending
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Where?
Maninthemirror
Banned
The simplest explanation: it was not intended to be sexist by either sex involved with the shirt. The overreaction needs to be the one that needs to be examined on both sides of the argument
I'm assuming this is directed to my first line and that you are going to ignore the second line.
You agreed that people can have different opinions on things and then you said that those opinions may be fabricated sometimes for some reason. This was your response to me asking you if other people might have information to add to discussions. So you're saying that you can and will decide when other people have something worthwhile to say, and that in this specific case you do not think that people critical of the shirt are being genuine. Thus, I must assume that you assume you know the truth of all things.
Dice//
Banned
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I don't see how the contexts are related beyond a few connecting threads (mostly dealing with you thinking me as a 'prude' it seems), so you're jumping ship.
"women are underrepresented both in STEM jobs and STEM undergraduate degrees and have been consistently over the last decade ... Women who do receive STEM degrees are less likely to work in STEM jobs"
"Furthermore, the attitudes and customs of current STEM practitioners also play a key role in a newcomer's persistence in a STEM major ... In addition, recent studies, like one published last month in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, have demonstrated that there is still bias among both male and female scientists against female students. ... I am often saddened and occasionally infuriated by the experiences of these extraordinary women, who have faced obstacles, subtle and overt, in their pursuit of science and math education."
"In particular, female and minority students are less likely to enter college intending to major in a STEM field major, but if they do so, are more likely to switch away from a STEM major. ... Results show that student experiences during college in STEM field departments can have an important impact on their decision to continue in a STEM major. ... There is some evidence that role models could play a part in the college major choice decision. ... The results in this paper show that the environment of the institution and the STEM field departments can have strong impacts on the major choice of students showing an interest in a STEM major"
There is a gender gap within STEM that doesn't exist for any particular reason apart from societal input, putting on a tacky shirt that some find demeans women is not a good way of making women feel more welcome in STEM.
No, it doesn't matter that the shirt was made by a woman.
No, it doesn't matter that you know someone who totally didn't see anything wrong with this.
No, Matt Taylor isn't a cartoon villain who just straight up hates women.
No, you don't know why he cried and you can't pinpoint the "culprits".
No, he really was genuine with his apology where he referred to it as a mistake.
No, this isn't some reactionary plot by SJW:s.
No, you don't have to think that the article in The Verge was well written to find an issue with the shirt.
No, just because you aren't offended does not magically make it inoffensive.
No, it is not unreasonable to expect better from ESA
No, it is not just about the shirt.
"Furthermore, the attitudes and customs of current STEM practitioners also play a key role in a newcomer's persistence in a STEM major ... In addition, recent studies, like one published last month in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, have demonstrated that there is still bias among both male and female scientists against female students. ... I am often saddened and occasionally infuriated by the experiences of these extraordinary women, who have faced obstacles, subtle and overt, in their pursuit of science and math education."
"In particular, female and minority students are less likely to enter college intending to major in a STEM field major, but if they do so, are more likely to switch away from a STEM major. ... Results show that student experiences during college in STEM field departments can have an important impact on their decision to continue in a STEM major. ... There is some evidence that role models could play a part in the college major choice decision. ... The results in this paper show that the environment of the institution and the STEM field departments can have strong impacts on the major choice of students showing an interest in a STEM major"
There is a gender gap within STEM that doesn't exist for any particular reason apart from societal input, putting on a tacky shirt that some find demeans women is not a good way of making women feel more welcome in STEM.
No, it doesn't matter that the shirt was made by a woman.
No, it doesn't matter that you know someone who totally didn't see anything wrong with this.
No, Matt Taylor isn't a cartoon villain who just straight up hates women.
No, you don't know why he cried and you can't pinpoint the "culprits".
No, he really was genuine with his apology where he referred to it as a mistake.
No, this isn't some reactionary plot by SJW:s.
No, you don't have to think that the article in The Verge was well written to find an issue with the shirt.
No, just because you aren't offended does not magically make it inoffensive.
No, it is not unreasonable to expect better from ESA
No, it is not just about the shirt.
Do you speak for all women? You and others saying the shirt is a real problem need to come up with some evidence that this is the case. Otherwise you're just taking the opinion of a very small number of women and extrapolating that to encompass the entire sex.
So? You have not once explained why this makes even one iota of difference. You just keep asserting it over and over.
Society determines what is considered sexist or not, not the people who create and wear items that could be deemed sexist.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
We can't poll the world. That's why people speak for themselves. I speak for myself and how I feel about it, and I explain the thought process to get to my conclusions for those who don't understand.
Maninthemirror is reading into the intent and reason for the apology and then describing the event through that lens rather than just accepting the man's actual words as they are.
There's literally an entire branch of social science, built up over 5 decades now, which gives you all the evidence and argumentative ground work you need.
Maninthemirror
Banned
because that is the point. it wasnt intended to be offensive by anyone except those in MINORITY who got offended by it. see the reaction on twitter and facebook and most agree it was not a sexist shirt. It wasnt intended to offend by the woman who made it and it wasnt intended to offend by the man who wore it. both didnt view it as sexist before it was labelled as sexist
I fail to understand how - given the demonstrated gender disparities in STEM fields - the idea that nonchalantly parading around sexualized images of women in a professional setting might conceivably send some bad signals is somehow a radical opinion that warrants exhaustively polling women.
Honestly 100% spot on.
I'd rather not shit on the dude, but I can admit there's an overarching issue with perceptions of both men and women, and STEM being a particular issue. I'm more troubled with people being dismissive of the bigger picture rather than me being troubled with the shirt or anyone defending Taylor i.e. I'm not offended by either (doesn't mean it's inoffensive).
berzeli said:
I'd add (since it keeps getting repeated): No, nobody is saying that a tacky shirt is singlehandedly going to keep women out of STEM fields. What we are saying is that nonchalantly wearing something like that at a press conference is symptomatic of the boys' club mentality that does dissuade women.
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