I don't want to get too deep into the sexism argument, but women can absolutely contribute to sexism against other women.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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I don't want to get too deep into the sexism argument, but women can absolutely contribute to sexism against other women.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
"I didn't lack information, all I did was not obtain any information."
"I didn't express an opinion, I just expressed an opinion. Also I keep misspelling the word whiners."
"I admittedly read nothing and don't have any of the information necessary to judge your opinion, but you're the shallow one. Also I'm in a discussion forum and don't want to have a discussion."
Lol.
Typed, not spat.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
It's entirely possible the guy slapped on the first shirt he saw. Or at the very least didn't choose it thinking "this will piss people off". I'm not excusing anything, but making the guy out to be a Machiavellian villain isn't helping anything or anyone.
There's nothing Machiavellian about wanting attention. It's just childish. And no, I don't think that someone who looks to have sat for at least 30 full hours of tattooing doesn't have a sense of their own personal style.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
In this case it's much more nuanced than that. It's not as simple as a self-hating jew or a black individual who is racist against other black people.
I don't believe her to be sexist based on the shirt that she created. However knowing now that she called it "space sluts" it does make things a bit different. It's an odd name.
Elaugaufein
Member
Actually I read it and didn't find anything that I wanted to respond too, either because I agree with your points or because I didn't think engaging would be constructive.
And yes my concerns are currently ridiculous because women are a marginalized group but I can see which way the wind is blowing, and I don't want to see babies got out with bathwater in the inevitable revisions to societal conduct that are coming. There have been good causes that have gained unforeseen social power and then overstepped the mark in the past (for example Prohibition, the cause was good, the political reality is fairly similar (pressure politics) and the outcome was a major overreach that probably set the cause of reducing the harm alcohol can do back decades), and I don't want a cause that I support to be one of those.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
Some people stating that that shirt might not be the wisest choice is hardly making out to be the worst person that ever live... imo.
Hardly anyone has been making him to be a "Machiavellian villain", has they?
It's a bit of a dishonest stretch to imply, dont you think?
Warm Machine
Member
Your conclusion there is a massive leap. Letting fellas have what they want is no where near the point.
Sexual objectification is a two way street and gender blind. People objectify who they please for their own pleasure. Have you not ever looked at another person, famous, a friend, or stranger and simply appreciated them or fantasized about them based on their looks?
If be very surprised if you could say no to that as you would find that to be incredibly common across humanity.
His friend made it and gave it to him. If he had worn it on any other day, people wouldn't care. And in fact, that case is problematic if you have read the discussions presented by Mumei and others. A funky t-shirt to you, may be seen by someone else as contributing to a hostile work environment. This goes beyond "sexy women."
Even though the creator is a woman, the shirt itself is not excluded from being part of the greater conversation on the objectification of women.
He wore the shirt under the public eye, where his friendship is no longer important. At the end of the day he chose to wear a "space sluts" (is that just a reference by the hash tag?) t-shirt to work and showcase it to the world. The conversation picks up because women are very much underrepresented in that field. What they now see is a guy wearing a questionable shirt of sexy women, on a day that he succeeds in his mission.
If you think that's completely irrelevant, you have to consider that people often gravitate to locations where they see people like themselves being welcome, and places where they're made to feel welcome. Like I said previously, a shirt may be one thing to one person, and completely something else to someone else because of the message that it sends.
So actually, the topic is not really about the shirt, but about the message he's sending by wearing it.
Did you ever notice that the words "ignore" and "ignorant" sound similar? There's a reason. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you should know that hundreds of people have come into the thread with the same opinion and been demolished. If you ignore all the counter opinions don't be surprised at being called ignorant.
But you do see that arguing about a dystopian future for all mankind because someone on twitter didn't outline the social ramifications, the ideal social structure, and this "cost of individuality" when they're live tweeting their reactions to an event is insane and not constructive for the discussion?
just running in circles.
1- Every bit of info I needed was on the first post.
2- I gave an opinion on the people making a deal out of this, not on the subject itself.
3- the weapon of the weak minded
4- I have every right not to discuss. Especially when the person who wants to, is a bully disguised as a crusader for justice.
You think I don't know what you're trying to do here? You're trying to push the buttons on others in hopes that they slip and get punished for it.
Case and point how you keep repeating yourself on something you know ticks me off, despite knowing (I hope) that you aren't in the right here.
So I'm out of the thread. I've wasted too much time on someone of your caliber and I know fully well that the next post I direct at you will be overly agressive. The equivalent on me kicking your teeth in, if this was done face to face.
So, find someone else to bully
they have?
Have they specifically give no view whether they find the shirt sexist or nor and simply write that people nowadays are whiners?
What's ignorant about that?
It's the same as saying the sky is blue. I don't care if someone daltonic sees another color. What I see is blue therefore it is blue to me.
Your response to having your laziness and ignorance pointed out should have been to not be lazy and gain that information. You offered an ignorant opinion because it was based on a lack of information. And not only did you do this, you made sure everyone knew you weren't listening to anything they had to say and that that was just too bad.
Your attitude toward this discussion represents the worst a forum has to offer.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
And maybe because of his over saturation to bizarre styles to him it's a normal shirt, like any other. Who's to say? I can't. I can say that I don't know to a certainty that he chose the shirt deliberately in an attempt to be contrary. I just personally find the "and this is why it's all his fault" angle reductive to the discussion of equal representations in STEM. Right now it's more about the controversy and twitter than what we can actually learn from it.
I've never talked about equal representation in STEM. My issue with him begins with the fact that he seems like an awful colleague to have on a team.
Dude seriously, I know some people are being acerbic, but stop. Flaunting you wilful ignorance of the situation is not helping.
Completely dismissing all counter arguments (without even reading most of them) as being baseless is ignorant. Asserting that you somehow posses the only right opinion is ignorant. Please stop being ignorant.
JUST because of that one shirt?
speculawyer
Member
1222 posts . . . . about a shirt?
Great contribution to the thread, and it gives a lot of insight about his argument about people just dropping by (hint: they would not be a the top of the list of Who Posted?).
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The whole point is that the posts are drive-bys.
Elaugaufein
Member
If I'd wanted that from the person on twitter I would have tweeted them. I was trying to elicit those goals from the people in this thread who seem to be part of the movement because it'd be nice to know what they actually consider appropriate limits. You don't have to reach the hypothetical dystopia before you hit ground that I personally don't want to cross.
But all I get is that people are still free to express themselves (as long as they don't express themselves through certain fashion choices). And since I don't see anyone arguing that that shirt not being worn in a professional setting is going to reverse the trend of women in STEM by itself there's clearly there are more steps that are necessary. Which means that "as long as" is open to whatever amendments come up by circumstance or whim or media outrage and I really don't think that's a good way to set social policy. So If I can even get people to think about where their line in the sand is in terms of limiting expression (even if they think my limits are ridiculous and arrive at something that I think is insane) then I have achieved something.
Gosh, almost like different people are making the same argument in drive-bys, and a bunch of people are (in attempting to engage them in good faith) having to repeat the same points over and over and over again.
PhineBuyM3
Member
I don't think you can buy it, but you might want to give the maker a holler on twitter:
https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I think the difference is in what we're seeing as actually "limiting expression."
Vermillion
Banned
...And we're talking about ostracizing women in STEM with a title like that?
Well, this is the prove I need, I mean how the shirt is given or made by his friend. While the shirt sure is tacky, it's possible that he wear it for such important day, because you know, to commerate an event with something that made by your friend will be more memorable. Sure now it become memorable, but not in the way he expected it.
Holy god, the title of the article
This is something you would expect from ideological extremist.
It's a shirt made by his friend. What if he wears it in order to commemorate/make it more memorable?
Jeez, I'm so done with subject like this over the internet. Most people just don't have enough understanding of the situation and context to discuss something that actually very critical and interpretive in nature.
Oh yeah, this post that implies that he wore the shirt to attract attention. And the only reason why he wore it. We can ignore that this was a custom made gift from friend too, if that helps.
You don't get people to reflect on their views by posting absolutely insane arguments, and they still are. Yes more steps are necessary for women in STEM, that does not mean that there is some boundless opportunity to "set social policy based on media outrage". A lot of the steps aren't even necessarily social policy as such. And arguing about how people expressing their individuality through their opinions is going to create this amorphous grey blob of humans interacting via calculus is disruptive of any discussion relating to this incident.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Lest we forget, from the person who made the shirt
John Kowalski
Banned
It's that good.
Elaugaufein
Member
This is likely true. Which may explain why we're talking past each other I suspect that the point that what most people view as the beginning of "limiting expression" is roughly the point where they'd stop, which means different limits change the meaning of the question.
The post that implies that attention is an obvious response to wearing the shirt.
Vermillion
Banned
Lest we forget, from the person who made the shirt
And this. We're talking about what keeps women out of STEM and ignoring the success of STEM?
Like, shit, I get the issue here. I understand why people may be upset about it, but damn is the reaction WAAAAAYYY over the top.
Maninthemirror
Banned
A shirt
Which neither the maker thought was offensive
Or the wearer
To both the creator and wearer it was a loud colorful shirt
Which both the man and women didn't find offensive
I didn't say it was offensive! It was a loud and colourful shirt that attracts attention! That is the whole point of my -- you know what fuck it.
Dice//
Banned
Lest we forget, from the person who made the shirt
I dunno, 1200 posts in clearly this is something worth discussing. So unless you feel like contributing (both of what you're saying and she is saying have been covered in this topic, and not 15 pages back, more only like 2 pages ago and till now).
Remember:
= Women can contribute to sexism themselves.
= He wore a ridiculous and poorly representational shirt (of both professionals in his field and in poor taste for depicting women---- on national television).
= An achievement shouldn't exempt you a "get out of jail free card" from criticism.
And a significant number of people do given the occasion it was worn.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You used spaces for dramatic effect just to say it's okay because the people who made it are cool with it.
Maninthemirror
Banned
So what about the Mohawk guy at the earlier landings on Mars, people wear stuff for expression in every field
You have not explained why the fact neither the creator nor the wearer find it offensive means it isn't offensive.
The only thing you've established is that it wasn't overt or intentional. It does not change the context in which it was represented nor does it nullify the very real issues that it illustrates.
It still is not just about the shirt, it is about no one reflecting on it and going "is this appropriate for broadcast", it is about the situation with women in STEM fields and "the man" (Matt Taylor) apologised an called wearing the shirt a mistake.
Maninthemirror
Banned
To people with common sense and those who like to deal with issues with nuance and not anger or hate towards something or be overly vehement. Most people used common sense and said its not an issue let alone a minor one beyond a colorful fashion choice which was odd
Dice//
Banned
This wasn't about wearing a simple rainbow-themed shirt, you know.
Are you telling me, as a woman, I should not think a SECOND THOUGHT -- AT ALL to the nature of such content on his outfit? That there is, literally, NOTHING to be read from this?
I agree that this issue could have been much worse and I appreciate he apologizing for it even if I didn't think it "THE BIGGEST BOMBSHELL TO HIT FEMINISM", but you're belittle and missing the point and I think that's what a number of us here are trying to get across. It's not about being a marching SJW Warrior, it's that people forget that there is something that indeed can be read between the lines about gendered social systems and ideas here.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Sorry but I would have to side with the woman who created the shirt that it wasn't intended to be offensive. Can't hate her opinion or mine
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