jakonovski
Member
The political bootstraps argument?
Ferguson: Police Officer Kills 18yo Michael Brown; Protests/Riots Continue
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The political bootstraps argument?
Depending on the media outlet, some of them are almost salivating over the prospect of riots following the decision. It's pretty gross.
Do you actually know that?
Simon Belmont
Banned
What's the turnout threshold for them to hire 'not murderers'?
Are you serious?
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
WONT' SOMEBODY THINK OF THOSE POOR TELEVISIONS?
Hate to break it to you but there were plenty of violent clashes between pro integration Black Americans and segregationists.
Riots occurred all over the country.
For similar reasons
The Black Panther Party projected the will to use violence constantly.
And when that system presents to you options that don't and won't and never will represent you, then what?
Run yourself?
Poor people don't run for office because they don't have the education, time, or money to do it.
Diffusion of responsibility. Everyone is hoping someone else will take care of the problem.
Yes, who do you think is hiring these cops? The city. Who runs the city?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But it hasn't brought about this change. I'm not arguing that voting can't solve any problems, I'm arguing that its demonstrably not stopping this one
And the Black Panther Party has never been viewed as the main force behind desegregation, so again I fail to see this point being made here... Yes, violent voices and groups existed. Historically speaking, they weren't the driving force behind the changes that were seen in this country.
First time I've seen people actually try to act like like the BPP had zero influence.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
The bourgeoisie that is advocating that the people who the bourgeoisie police gun down don't do anything to shake things up.
Dude Abides
Banned
Advocating a peaceful protest is not the same as advocating a violent riot, since only the former is calling for destruction of life and property.
This type of empty keyboard posturing is common, though. That's why I don't think there will be much rioting, at least outside of ferguson.
How about you, you heading down there to be the vanguard of the lumpenproletariat?
Corporate backers. Don't think for a second a brown face "running" the city will change anything. Atlanta has a brown mayor, and he has just as much disdain for brown people within the city as the racist good ole boys outside of atlanta.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
I don't have to. They're able to figure themselves out.
And were not claimed as being as such. They're just a well known example of the many projects of power.
Or a better known one was Malcolm X.
It has not brought about this change yet. People are talking about it, and the country at large is listening. Where we go from here is anyone's guess.
I do not believe that violence and rioting will bring about this change any faster, if anything it will impede it. Clearly you disagree.
But don't say that peaceful protest has not lead to change in this country, because it certainly has.
Enjoy your day off.
Yo, you get worked up cause this is your town, but we getting worked up cause this is our life. Ain't nothing that happened in Ferguson that couldn't and doesn't constantly happen all across the country. Please don't bitch about people showing solidarity.
But stay safe too.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
It has been a mixture of both. Not one or the other.
I'll be working from home. Naturally we're in the middle of a huge server farm migration.
Dude Abides
Banned
Smh. Liebknecht would never have said anything like this.
The joys of IT x.x
Once the verdict comes down, I'll be starting a new thread and closing this one.
Tempers are running high. They will likely run higher after whatever the grand jury announces. As difficult as it is, attempt to remain calm and civil. Attempt to refrain from assigning motivations to other posters that aren't clearly there.
Getting yourself banned because you lose your temper isn't going to help anyone. If you can't discuss the issue in a civil manner, wait a few days before you leap into the thread. People will still be discussing it, and you'll still have a chance to say your piece, but you might have calmed down a little.
Tempers are running high. They will likely run higher after whatever the grand jury announces. As difficult as it is, attempt to remain calm and civil. Attempt to refrain from assigning motivations to other posters that aren't clearly there.
Getting yourself banned because you lose your temper isn't going to help anyone. If you can't discuss the issue in a civil manner, wait a few days before you leap into the thread. People will still be discussing it, and you'll still have a chance to say your piece, but you might have calmed down a little.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
So I in my great whiteness should go up to Ferguson to be their great white hope? Liebknecht was a voice in the German Revolution. He didn't go over to other countries and co-opt their revolutionary fervor, did he?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I don't nessecarily think violence will change anything for the better. I just strongly reject all of the positions that "things would get better if people just [X]" in the face of all evidence to the contrary. This is not a new problem and things will not get better if people just [X]
How the fuck is it empty? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? So basically you don't actively participate, you can't endorse them regardless of the impact they actually have on your daily life? It sounds like a side one would only argue when they're against something they disagree with because I don't see the difference between endorsing a protest or a riot like this since you're hoping both have the same outcome. How drastic one is shouldn't matter if the motivation behind them are ones you agree one. Stop playing Devils advocate in attempt to irritate and wile people up.
Aaronology
Member
I'm currently in an IRC room where several members are gleefully awaiting the announcement and worst case scenario. "Have the blacks started rioting yet?" They've got their figurative legs thrown up on the coffee tables and popcorn.gifs ready to go. It vaguely reminds me of the pictures of Israelis making camps on cliffs to watch bombs falling in Gaza. This has become a macabre spectacle for a lot of people and it's disgusting.
It touches on what has been one of the most frustrating parts of this whole ordeal for me. Rioting won't solve anything but alienating the protesters and making those against them feel emboldened and justified. The world is watching and so many goddamn racists are just besides themselves as they await for a bunch of blacks to put on a show for them. I'd love for the community/protesters in Ferguson to prove them wrong but even I don't think that's going to happen if things play out in a bad way.
I'm upset at my own cynicism.
I agree, and I think it stems partially from lack of perspective and little appreciation for history.
It touches on what has been one of the most frustrating parts of this whole ordeal for me. Rioting won't solve anything but alienating the protesters and making those against them feel emboldened and justified. The world is watching and so many goddamn racists are just besides themselves as they await for a bunch of blacks to put on a show for them. I'd love for the community/protesters in Ferguson to prove them wrong but even I don't think that's going to happen if things play out in a bad way.
I'm upset at my own cynicism.
Maxim726X said:
I agree, and I think it stems partially from lack of perspective and little appreciation for history.
djplaeskool
Member
Insurrection is a dead language in America.
I don't think violence will do anything but justify massive retaliation and rationalize the further poisoning of the well of race relations and public sentiment.
I don't think violence will do anything but justify massive retaliation and rationalize the further poisoning of the well of race relations and public sentiment.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Well, in Ferguson you have a town of 20k people, the vast majority African American, yet somehow the majority of the city council and the mayor are Caucasian. In this city, the city council hires a city manager who hires the police chief who then in turn runs the police department. Do you really think that if the city council was more representative of the community that they would have hired this buffoon of a police chief? If you don't have this police chief and have someone more in line with the community's values, then you aren't going to have a Darren Wilson and you aren't going to have a body in the street for four hours and you aren't going to have what we see here. That is not to say a black cop or a Darren Wilson with actual training on how to interface with minorities would never result in a tragedy, but the odds would be significantly reduced.
I understand feeling impotent in white majority communities, but here you have a place that by all rights should be controlled by the folks who are being discriminated against by their own police department. Here you can draw a line in the sand, because by sheer numbers, you should have control already.
Look at what you posted and remember the protests right after the murder. Those were surprisingly peaceful. Did that change perceptions? Obviously not since they're anticipating a riot tonight. Ferguson already proved them wrong but unsurprisingly not everybody remembers that.
jakonovski
Member
Race relations seem to be already going down the shitter, with massive prison populations and police terror. A little more economic woe and many literally won't have anything to lose.
I'm saying. What we've seen a system produce is so much more important than waffling about what the system *might* produce and especially more important than pointing at what we meant for it to produce.
Mixolydian
Member
Your second paragraph drives it home. Rioting will certainly make things worse, just the same as indifference won't make anything better.
These events always seem to bring comments from all sides about how its high time to have race relation discussions, but nothing ever comes of it. I'm not looking for clarity or reasons for that; I'm aware of the many reasons why, but it's still depressing.
NegroNinja
Member
Everyone does need to calm down a bit. I'm sure everyone in this thread wants the same thing we just have differing views on how to get it. At this point we all need to just wait for the verdict.
As far as the whole riot or vote thingie, I honestly don't even know. A part of says that voting and more protests should be the answer but inside the cynic in me says "You know that isn't going to do shit." Same goes for rioting. Will that really solve anything?
What people fail to realize is that these are the choices we have to make everyday especially as black men. Do we participate in a system that is clearly made to be against us? Or do we lash out at our oppressors and just give more fuel to their ignorant claims?
This situation isn't as clear cut as you either vote or riot. This situation needs more than this.
As far as the whole riot or vote thingie, I honestly don't even know. A part of says that voting and more protests should be the answer but inside the cynic in me says "You know that isn't going to do shit." Same goes for rioting. Will that really solve anything?
What people fail to realize is that these are the choices we have to make everyday especially as black men. Do we participate in a system that is clearly made to be against us? Or do we lash out at our oppressors and just give more fuel to their ignorant claims?
This situation isn't as clear cut as you either vote or riot. This situation needs more than this.
Convicted felons aren't allowed to vote.
Blacks in Ferguson are overwhelming accused and convicted of crimes relative to whites who are guilty of the same or worse behavior. Often something as simple as getting into a fight in school will result in a felony conviction for a black teenager, while a white teenager will get off with a warning or no response at all. So you have huge swaths of the black population in Missouri that are forbidden from voting before they even register the first time.
That doesn't even scratch the surface of the way fines and tickets are used to keep the minorities in Ferguson and other, similar, communities perpetually poor and either imprisoned or out on bail so they aren't permitted to leave the community or attempt to improve their lives.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vwptqn3mhq9xvy7/ArchCity Defenders Municipal Courts Whitepaper.pdf
ArchCity White Paper on the court system in Missouri.
We don't know since Ferguson is handed to white people.
You didn't say that, but that is what the sum of your post declares. That Voting will change police abuse against minorities (This is the goal for rioting, so instead of rioting, you are suggesting voting) I don't want to play a game of "i didn't say what those words I wrote said." You incorrectly assume that voting will reduce violence against citizens from police. And since that is what the protesters want, that is the demand. You offer voting as a solution to that demand. We good?
Sure, you're re-wording it to "voting affects the hiring standards for police." But that precisely means that voting is contributing/factor of the Police shooting people nation wide. Because if there was a larger turnout, reasons and stuff would happen. And demands of less abuse will be met, due to voter turnout.
You don't understand that it isn't a prerequisite to hire officers that kill people. That isn't a voting item. There is a systemic problem with too many police forces across America. People did not vote for having police shooting them to death, just like they can't vote against it. It isn't a problem that has anything related to voting. What do you think people wanted that voted in Ferguson last time? Did they opt in for horrible trigger happy police? Was that something to vote on..? Where was voter to look for information that police would shoot unarmed people, it surely isn't in the voting pamphlet. How does one vote that the NYPD shouldn't strangle people to death?
When you fumble over yourself to discuss voting over the issue at hand, lack of police training and accountability, I have to keep nailing this into your head. Hiring standards have nothing to do with police murdering people and getting off via larger problems with the justice system. Standards for hiring are standards for hiring. No matter who is in charge, it is not voted on to get more civilian murderers on the force, or less. People are hired that can protect and serve, thats all.
There is a nation wide problem with the justice system, police abuse, corruption, and lack of accountability. These problems do not exist because of voting. These problems exist because there is police abuse, corruption, and lack of accountability. Protesters are supporting Police cameras for Police Departments. Here in California Rialto PD went out and got cameras -gasp- without any voting on the matter because its what should be done. They immediately had a drop in crime, as well as noted better policing.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I mean this is nothing new. And even if charges magically were to get filed there will be people claiming it's only done to make sure there are no riots.
The basic thing to me is no matter what happens it always just so happen to be in the eyes of the law that the black male is at fault and the cop innocent servant of justice.
Ugh
The basic thing to me is no matter what happens it always just so happen to be in the eyes of the law that the black male is at fault and the cop innocent servant of justice.
Ugh
CreeperBlocks
Banned
Do we have an estimated time when the announcement will be made?
7 Central
BFIB
Member
Rumored time is 8 EST.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll say this: while I don't want there to be riots and I fervently wish there is a peaceful path to change, this sequence of events and the statistics I've been made more aware of in the aftermath, from incarceration rates and policies to incidents of violence, have sparked some very deep and in some cases very dark reflections on our current justice system and opinions I have previously held about the system itself and the people it has authority over
Whatever. At this point we're talking in circles.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
In Missouri, once the sentence is served, so is the right to vote:
http://www.moep.uscourts.gov/restoration-rights
I agree with those points, however total turnout in 2013 was 12 percent, that is putrid.
Here are the voting stats for April 2013:
http://www.stlouisco.com/portals/8/docs/document library/elections/eresults/el130402/twnfer.html
Look at that! Look how close these votes were!
VOTES PERCENT VOTES PERCENT
COUNCIL MEMBER FERGUSON WARD 2
(Vote for ) 1
01 = DWAYNE T. JAMES 214 61.49
02 = MARTIN PION 133 38.22 03 = INVALID WRITE-IN 1 .29
------------------
01 02 03
------------------
0732 FER32,40 112 67 1
0733 FER33,36 102 66 0
====================================================================================================================================
VOTES PERCENT
COUNCIL MEMBER FERGUSON WARD 3
(Vote for ) 1
01 = KEITH KALLSTROM 72 96.00
02 = INVALID WRITE-IN 3 4.00
------------
01 02
------------
0721 FER21 NRW1 10 0
0731 FER31 NRW25 62 3
Yes, they do exist because of voting. You vote (or don't vote at all) for people who encourage and support this horrible, corrupt and criminal behavior and guess what, that's what you get, corrupt, criminals running around as cops and politicians. You act as if these practices are made in a vacuum and they aren't.
If we as a society in the US would collectively put our foot down against people like Bob McCulloch and Jay Nixon then maybe we could have people in the position to actually hire cops who aren't sociopaths or at the very least, gun crazy. And then cops wouldn't need cameras strapped to their bodies.
Looting! Rioting! I hope the same people are more concerned about the killing of American civilians by its own police force. But by all means, advocate peace and voting for one side while the other is free to kill without consequence.
And when things get bad, the side doing all the killing gets backed up by the national guard. Seems fair.
And when things get bad, the side doing all the killing gets backed up by the national guard. Seems fair.
CreeperBlocks
Banned
I really hope there aren't riots tonight.
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