This is absolutely stupid game design. Anyone who defends this has extremely bad taste in games in my opinion. Like I cant think of one advantage designing such a system.
36 minutes of The Order 1886 gameplay (offscreen)
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
This is absolutely stupid game design. Anyone who defends this has extremely bad taste in games in my opinion. Like I cant think of one advantage designing such a system.
MilkyJoe
Member
Im at work, I can only read so many replies inbetween "working" and Gaffing. Sorry I never go to Gametrailers and Gameinformer, or Game FAQs or Gamespot or IGN. I'm set in my ways, I'm pretty much Gaf, Metro, trusted reviews, Escapist and youcan throw in the occasional Angry Joe and a good dollop of Jim Stirling (no offence, Jim, speaking metophorically).
regarding bold
A wise man once said don't beleive what anyone says until you have seen it for yourself. And I live by that, but that does not mean you go looking without a modicum of caution. If someone I trust says be wary, then I will be
Night Angel
Member
So yeah, basically you really want to base your opinion on the one negative review. Cool. Seeing as you've repeatedly ignored the positive impressions from people who have actually played the game on Gaf, that is. And that's fine. If you want to enjoy some confirmation bias, go right ahead, but don't act surprised when people question your stance.
Reviews will be mixed, there's no doubt about it.
Imo the new demo has proved that RAD is doing an excellent work in what they're trying to achieve, which is a cinematic linear game which blends amazing graphics, great presentation with different kinds of gameplay ranging from tps cover shooting to stealth, mini-games, QTEs, interactive melee combats. It will be like playing a movie with all this different ways to interact with it that blend together perfectly.
I know that for my personal preferences I'm gonna like the game a lot.
But it's also clear that those people who like to be always in control of the action, don't like QTEs at all, think that only shooting counts as gameplay and everything has to be open world, won't find in this game what they're looking for. In this group of people there will be also some reviewers.
Ideally a game should be judged for what it tries to accomplish, but things do not go like that.
So its all gameplay like I said heh.
Nightengale
Member
As a whole, all the opinions thus far seem valid. Solid core TPS mechanics, excellent weapon feedback and response. Weakness seems to be that the AI's occasionally spotty, and mixed opinions on QTE aspects for stuff like stealth, etc. Some will loathe it, some will think it's fine. It really depends on that particular individual.
I mean, as a whole, I think the idea behind The Order 1886's game design at its most basic is pretty clear. It's a grounded ( no crazy traversal,etc) TPS that includes player-engaged cinematic moments instead of it being purely just a cutscene.
The criticisms are valid. The game's demonstration has been largely improved since E3, but it really only addresses 4 primary matters, which are :
- polish/frame rate/etc
- the previously, supposedly clunkier cover
- hit reaction and weapon feedback
- that the game is more than just a 'gallery shooter'
The above only changes a 'bad game' to a 'game with solid gameplay.' It's also true that aside from the cinematics, ambience and atmosphere/world-design, The Order has not been especially 'unique' or 'innovative', and its choice of QTE-ish design makes those who want innovative experiences pan it more as well.
With that being said, it's not like that's all there is to the Order. There's enough hints of depth beyond what was shown that can add to the experience even further, but that depends on RAD to deliver. Some of them, being:
- Story. We've known about the 'setting', but very little about the story. A good story can add gravitas to the plot, and from what Weesuriya has talked about, he's a very character-focused person that values character and world, so it's interesting to see how he expands on it.
- Unique Weapons. These kind of things can add a lot to TPS. Stuff like the Electric Gun, etc. How will they add to the gameplay? We've seen largely vanilla-ish weapons thus far, with only very little teasers of the more unique ones.
- Lycans. Lycans are presumably going to really mix things up for the gameplay. We've seen them tank shots, leap around with great agility. We've only seen Lycan shooting combat in a very directed scene thus far.
- Lycan Melee. This one that we're teased about. Seems like feel like a combination of some QTE, and some tank-ish(?) regular melee? Would be interesting, to say the least.
- Team-factor. RAD has said that the 'team' are the main characters of The Order, and everything we've seen thus far largely has them as a team. Will their presence be actual gameplay addition-factors, or will they be like every other NPC allies in games, and are terrible shots who miss stuff?
- Set-pieces. Duh. It's a cinematic TPS, set-pieces are practically confirmed. Weesuriya isn't shy to admit he's inspired by Uncharted 2, and their previous games were God of Wars PSP titles, which were also major set-piece focused-titles. They should have plentiful experience on this.
Will they deliver? Who knows. But I'm glad that the game's looking to have super solid gameplay.
I mean, as a whole, I think the idea behind The Order 1886's game design at its most basic is pretty clear. It's a grounded ( no crazy traversal,etc) TPS that includes player-engaged cinematic moments instead of it being purely just a cutscene.
The criticisms are valid. The game's demonstration has been largely improved since E3, but it really only addresses 4 primary matters, which are :
- polish/frame rate/etc
- the previously, supposedly clunkier cover
- hit reaction and weapon feedback
- that the game is more than just a 'gallery shooter'
The above only changes a 'bad game' to a 'game with solid gameplay.' It's also true that aside from the cinematics, ambience and atmosphere/world-design, The Order has not been especially 'unique' or 'innovative', and its choice of QTE-ish design makes those who want innovative experiences pan it more as well.
With that being said, it's not like that's all there is to the Order. There's enough hints of depth beyond what was shown that can add to the experience even further, but that depends on RAD to deliver. Some of them, being:
- Story. We've known about the 'setting', but very little about the story. A good story can add gravitas to the plot, and from what Weesuriya has talked about, he's a very character-focused person that values character and world, so it's interesting to see how he expands on it.
- Unique Weapons. These kind of things can add a lot to TPS. Stuff like the Electric Gun, etc. How will they add to the gameplay? We've seen largely vanilla-ish weapons thus far, with only very little teasers of the more unique ones.
- Lycans. Lycans are presumably going to really mix things up for the gameplay. We've seen them tank shots, leap around with great agility. We've only seen Lycan shooting combat in a very directed scene thus far.
- Lycan Melee. This one that we're teased about. Seems like feel like a combination of some QTE, and some tank-ish(?) regular melee? Would be interesting, to say the least.
- Team-factor. RAD has said that the 'team' are the main characters of The Order, and everything we've seen thus far largely has them as a team. Will their presence be actual gameplay addition-factors, or will they be like every other NPC allies in games, and are terrible shots who miss stuff?
- Set-pieces. Duh. It's a cinematic TPS, set-pieces are practically confirmed. Weesuriya isn't shy to admit he's inspired by Uncharted 2, and their previous games were God of Wars PSP titles, which were also major set-piece focused-titles. They should have plentiful experience on this.
Will they deliver? Who knows. But I'm glad that the game's looking to have super solid gameplay.
MeachTheMonster
Banned
Yes it is. Other video games give a lot more freedom
Nightengale
Member
And there's others that don't give a lot of freedom because of game design reasons.
The Order is what it is. We've heard the devs tease previously that the game isn't all about shooting, and there's stuff-to-do in-between 'shooting' that breaks up the pace here and there.
For better or worse, I guess we've found out what it is. Interactive cinematic moments (rappel down Zeps, etc), Interactive cutscenes (QTE), mini-games, stealth moments, restricted sniper moments, etc, and from the E3 teaser, stuff like Lycan detective work/exploration.
This is what makes me most worried, to be honest; the impressions have been, for the most part, rather positive, or at least that this will be a decent game, but the limited PR and visual showing has me wondering how much confidence that the company has in the game.
Right, that's what I mean, it feels more natural without the button prompt and its timing indicator, don't you think? I wonder if we can "punch the air" or if the melee moveset is restricted to these QTE.
Same goes for the stealth actions, I prefer something like TLOU with no indications.
GeordieMark
Member
Some GAF members. Lets remember that opinions vary wildly from one person to the next. Just because a couple of people on GAF say something looks awesome doesn't make it so.
This does look like a game that will divide opinion. The review thread is going to be carnage. I'm calling it now.
Naughty_Doge
Member
Welp, I see this has devolved into a usual The Order thread. It was fun while it lasted.
how ..? and what is a "usual" The Order thread"..?
MilkyJoe
Member
A) Again, I am at work so have not/cannot read the whole thread. I'm just replying to the greens as I browse the thread.
B) I said about posting that I was reading the article on the way to work so posted it to this thread
C) Bolded, again... in the very last bolded part of my reply you are quoteing I said DO NOT BELEIVE ANYTHING UNTIL YOU SEE IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES. This means that whatever I have read on any site I will take on board but still make up my own mind Jesus wept, Man.
Nightengale
Member
Thanks.
I didn't want to disregard the negative feedback, because they're plenty valid, even if I don't agree with Gamespot and Steve Burn's overtly negative opinion on the 'archaic game design.'
Begaria
Member
Something about this stuck a chord with me, so I decided to comb the video and check when the player has access to direct input with the game. I define direct input as when a player can press a button and make something happen on screen (i.e. whether it be just moving forward, pressing triangle to open a door, or shooting a rebel in the face).
(O:46-1:45) 59 seconds of play gameplay = Player controls climbing/rappelling down the zeppelin with a minor second or two of conversation, until Galahad reaches the bottom. I can't quite tell if the player has any interaction to climb towards the door, so I left it off.
(3:25-6:00) 2 minutes, 45 seconds with ~ 10 seconds loss of player control = Player has direct control over Galahad now with movement, there's a few minor seconds where the NPCs talk in front of a door (still have complete control), and a few seconds where you lose control before going into stealth mode. Then there's the Inverter/Rectified minigame, a quick few seconds cut away to show a guard getting suspicious, before going back into sneak mode.
(6:15-8:23) 2 minutes, 8 seconds = beginning of stealth sections with a stealth kill to a guard, and moving towards a door (that you get to open!
) and a quick cutscene happens after opening the door(8:35-8:58) 23 seconds = move forward
Subjective part Depending on how you view interactive cutscenes, this upcoming descriptions may or not be "gameplay" to you. To me, whenever a player has the ability to press a button to interact with the game that relates directly into action, that's gameplay, especially if your failure to interact correctly results in a loss. If what I describe isn't gameplay to you, then so be it. I won't argue with you.
(9:09-9:14) 5 seconds = count down to grenade throw, pull the pin, throw grenade
(9:25-9:26) 1 second = player failure to hit QTE
(9:40-10:00) 20 seconds = player QTEs, with interactive camera that you can pan over to items to hit the guards with (in this case, a fire extinguisher)
End subjective part
(10:30-11:32) 1 minute, 2 seconds = move forward into stealth section #2, total control over movement with stealth kill
(11:33-13:44) 2 minutes, 11 seconds = lockpicking minigame
(13:45-16:25) 2 minutes, 40 seconds= player control, open door yourself, into stealth section #3 (with hilarious lockpicking bug), open door yourself at the end
(18:25-20:25) 2 minutes = the sniping marking minigame, marking the rebel guards, ending in player failure for taking out the wrong guard first
(20:40-21:00) 20 seconds = player shoots the right guard
(21:25-24:45) 3 minutes, 20 seconds = third person shooter section #1
(25:04-26:25) 1 minute, 21 seconds = third person shooter section #2 ending with going down a ladder
(26:38-26:58) 20 seconds = player movement
(28:45-28:46) 1 second = press triangle to pay re-er, drop a lifeboat
(28:58-32:46) 3 minutes, 48 seconds = player movement to another Inverter/Rectifier minigame, another door you get to open yourself, there seems like there's a jump cut here of the player grabbing ammo and guns, then there's the one door a NPC opens for you during gameplay, another door the player opens themselves, and checks a corpse. There's a minor 2 second cutaway while the ship shakes. Player body checks open a door and moves into third person shooter section #3 which results in a death.
(32:51-35:28) 2 minutes, 37 seconds = attempt #2 on section #3, ending at Galahad getting separated from his comrade.
So, in this 36:17 video, we get 26:21 worth of gameplay. That's almost a 3:4 ratio of "gameplay:cutscene" or "player control:not player control".
I really am that bored at work
I think that it is a complex topic, imho.
I loved Uncharted series, because of graphics and story, but also because of its guided gameplay. I don't have PS4 nor Xone yet, but I'm attracted by both Ryse and this game, but at the same time I can't avoid to critizice this kind of approach. I'm both amazed and bored by this kind of game.
But this will be one of the first game I'll buy for PS4 when I'll have one.
I loved Uncharted series, because of graphics and story, but also because of its guided gameplay. I don't have PS4 nor Xone yet, but I'm attracted by both Ryse and this game, but at the same time I can't avoid to critizice this kind of approach. I'm both amazed and bored by this kind of game.
But this will be one of the first game I'll buy for PS4 when I'll have one.
Agreed.
Lots of salty posts:
Lol, have fun playing gears of war minus the fun lol
Another 3rd person shooter..yawn
It's really not that impressive looking guys
etc... etc... etc....
MeachTheMonster
Banned
Something about this stuck a chord with me, so I decided to comb the video and check when the player has access to direct input with the game. I define direct input as when a player can press a button and make something happen on screen (i.e. whether it be just moving forward, pressing triangle to open a door, or shooting a rebel in the face).
(O:46-1:45) 59 seconds of play gameplay = Player controls climbing/rappelling down the zeppelin with a minor second or two of conversation, until Galahad reaches the bottom. I can't quite tell if the player has any interaction to climb towards the door, so I left it off.
(3:25-6:00) 2 minutes, 45 seconds with ~ 10 seconds loss of player control = Player has direct control over Galahad now with movement, there's a few minor seconds where the NPCs talk in front of a door (still have complete control), and a few seconds where you lose control before going into stealth mode. Then there's the Inverter/Rectified minigame, a quick few seconds cut away to show a guard getting suspicious, before going back into sneak mode.
(6:15-8:23) 2 minutes, 8 seconds = beginning of stealth sections with a stealth kill to a guard, and moving towards a door (that you get to open!
(8:35-8:58) 23 seconds = move forward
Subjective part Depending on how you view interactive cutscenes, this upcoming descriptions may or not be "gameplay" to you. To me, whenever a player has the ability to press a button to interact with the game that relates directly into action, that's gameplay, especially if your failure to interact correctly results in a loss. If what I describe isn't gameplay to you, then so be it. I won't argue with you.
(9:09-9:14) 5 seconds = count down to grenade throw, pull the pin, throw grenade
(9:25-9:26) 1 second = player failure to hit QTE
(9:40-10:00) 20 seconds = player QTEs, with interactive camera that you can pan over to items to hit the guards with (in this case, a fire extinguisher)
End subjective part
(10:30-11:32) 1 minute, 2 seconds = move forward into stealth section #2, total control over movement with stealth kill
(11:33-13:44) 2 minutes, 11 seconds = lockpicking minigame
(13:45-16:25) 2 minutes, 40 seconds= player control, open door yourself, into stealth section #3 (with hilarious lockpicking bug), open door yourself at the end
(18:25-20:25) 2 minutes = the sniping marking minigame, marking the rebel guards, ending in player failure for taking out the wrong guard first
(20:40-21:00) 20 seconds = player shoots the right guard
(21:25-24:45) 3 minutes, 20 seconds = third person shooter section #1
(25:04-26:25) 1 minute, 21 seconds = third person shooter section #2 ending with going down a ladder
(26:38-26:58) 20 seconds = player movement
(28:45-28:46) 1 second = press triangle to pay re-er, drop a lifeboat
(28:58-32:46) 3 minutes, 48 seconds = player movement to another Inverter/Rectifier minigame, another door you get to open yourself, there seems like there's a jump cut here of the player grabbing ammo and guns, then there's the one door a NPC opens for you during gameplay, another door the player opens themselves, and checks a corpse. There's a minor 2 second cutaway while the ship shakes. Player body checks open a door and moves into third person shooter section #3 which results in a death.
(32:51-35:28) 2 minutes, 37 seconds = attempt #2 on section #3, ending at Galahad getting separated from his comrade.
So, in this 36:17 video, we get 26:21 worth of gameplay. That's almost a 3:4 ratio of "gameplay:cutscene" or "player control:not player control".
I really am that bored at work
Read my subsequent post. I wasn't talking about being able to press a button and making something happen. That's exactly what you do in a interactive movie.
I'm talking about times when they truly let go of your hand and let you drive the action as you see fit.
So using your time stamps as a reference only here
21:25-24:45) 3 minutes, 20 seconds = third person shooter section #1
(25:04-26:25) 1 minute, 21 seconds = third person shooter section #2 ending with going down a ladder
Does the player truly dictate the action.
That's even less time than I originally estimated.
Coolbgdog12
Member
So you've come to gaf to troll and fuel the "this isn't really a game" propaganda?? Pathetic.
Something about this stuck a chord with me, so I decided to comb the video and check when the player has access to direct input with the game. I define direct input as when a player can press a button and make something happen on screen (i.e. whether it be just moving forward, pressing triangle to open a door, or shooting a rebel in the face).
(O:46-1:45) 59 seconds of play gameplay = Player controls climbing/rappelling down the zeppelin with a minor second or two of conversation, until Galahad reaches the bottom. I can't quite tell if the player has any interaction to climb towards the door, so I left it off.
(3:25-6:00) 2 minutes, 45 seconds with ~ 10 seconds loss of player control = Player has direct control over Galahad now with movement, there's a few minor seconds where the NPCs talk in front of a door (still have complete control), and a few seconds where you lose control before going into stealth mode. Then there's the Inverter/Rectified minigame, a quick few seconds cut away to show a guard getting suspicious, before going back into sneak mode.
(6:15-8:23) 2 minutes, 8 seconds = beginning of stealth sections with a stealth kill to a guard, and moving towards a door (that you get to open!
(8:35-8:58) 23 seconds = move forward
Subjective part Depending on how you view interactive cutscenes, this upcoming descriptions may or not be "gameplay" to you. To me, whenever a player has the ability to press a button to interact with the game that relates directly into action, that's gameplay, especially if your failure to interact correctly results in a loss. If what I describe isn't gameplay to you, then so be it. I won't argue with you.
(9:09-9:14) 5 seconds = count down to grenade throw, pull the pin, throw grenade
(9:25-9:26) 1 second = player failure to hit QTE
(9:40-10:00) 20 seconds = player QTEs, with interactive camera that you can pan over to items to hit the guards with (in this case, a fire extinguisher)
End subjective part
(10:30-11:32) 1 minute, 2 seconds = move forward into stealth section #2, total control over movement with stealth kill
(11:33-13:44) 2 minutes, 11 seconds = lockpicking minigame
(13:45-16:25) 2 minutes, 40 seconds= player control, open door yourself, into stealth section #3 (with hilarious lockpicking bug), open door yourself at the end
(18:25-20:25) 2 minutes = the sniping marking minigame, marking the rebel guards, ending in player failure for taking out the wrong guard first
(20:40-21:00) 20 seconds = player shoots the right guard
(21:25-24:45) 3 minutes, 20 seconds = third person shooter section #1
(25:04-26:25) 1 minute, 21 seconds = third person shooter section #2 ending with going down a ladder
(26:38-26:58) 20 seconds = player movement
(28:45-28:46) 1 second = press triangle to pay re-er, drop a lifeboat
(28:58-32:46) 3 minutes, 48 seconds = player movement to another Inverter/Rectifier minigame, another door you get to open yourself, there seems like there's a jump cut here of the player grabbing ammo and guns, then there's the one door a NPC opens for you during gameplay, another door the player opens themselves, and checks a corpse. There's a minor 2 second cutaway while the ship shakes. Player body checks open a door and moves into third person shooter section #3 which results in a death.
(32:51-35:28) 2 minutes, 37 seconds = attempt #2 on section #3, ending at Galahad getting separated from his comrade.
So, in this 36:17 video, we get 26:21 worth of gameplay. That's almost a 3:4 ratio of "gameplay:cutscene" or "player control:not player control".
I really am that bored at work
MeachTheMonster
Banned
Never said it wasn't a game. In fact I said it is a game.
If there's something you'd like to address about what i said go ahead, but I'm not sure that empty insults and accusations of trolling are acceptable around here.
Begaria
Member
So you're just completely cutting out the stealth sections then? Those are sections where the player dictates action as you describe it. I'm not going to mince words here with you over the sections where you just move forward, or even the mini games. You also cut out the third section of third person shooting (discounting the second attempt).
MisterR
Member
I'm sure there are folks who honestly don't like the look of the game, but it's naive to think that the fact it's exclusive doesn't come into play, and that works both ways for both factions of fanboys.
ohh.. I must have missed most of those posts.
Rekkapryde
Member
But he hates this site SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much right?
swazzyswess
Member
I think anyone who didn't play The Evil Within doesn't fully understand how much the black bars can hamper your vision and the gameplay itself.
It *sort of* worked in TEW in a claustrophobic survival horror way, but for an action-y cover shooter, I can't imagine it's going to do the game any favors. Very unfortunate.
It *sort of* worked in TEW in a claustrophobic survival horror way, but for an action-y cover shooter, I can't imagine it's going to do the game any favors. Very unfortunate.
Coolbgdog12
Member
Lol do your thing man. You can feign ignorance but if anybody asks I can easily verify what I'm saying but I'm done here.
amstradcpc
Member
Strange way to start posting in neogaf guy.
MeachTheMonster
Banned
Didn't count the stealth sections cause you have to kill the exact enemies they tell you to and if you mess up a QTE, you have to start over.
I missed the last shooter section. Apologies for that.
Coolbgdog12
Member
Seriously.
Begaria
Member
From what I can tell, you don't even have to kill anybody in those stealth sections. In fact, the player chooses not to do so to a couple of guards in stealth section #3 (Edit: I had #2 originally, but it was actually 3). That's why they're called stealth sections.
King Beyond the wall
Member
Some of these comments are getting rather silly now.
Better not post this kind of stuff
SlasherJPC
Banned
Man, some people just love to dictate what is and isn't a game. The cinematic aspect is just something they are striving for and with good affect. They don't shy away about what they are aiming for so not sure why people are up in arms or trying to go against the games very own grain. It simple seems like it isn't for those folks that hate cinematic games.
Coolbgdog12
Member
Ignore him. I know the guy. I won't divulge too much info but this is his shtick so to speak.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
You're surely correct that both kinds of people exist here, but since no one can prove which is which with any certainty, wouldn't it be better just to leave talk of "fanboys" out of the discussion completely? GAF is supposed to be better than that. Conversations devolving into speculation about the motives and allegiances of every poster are pretty goddamn shitty.
MeachTheMonster
Banned
Now compare that to other games with stealth sections. You fail or get seen you hide or shoot your way out.
Here you don't get that choice
Eh, I get what he is saying. I like cinematic games though, so I'd probably enjoy 1886 quite a bit. You seem to be in less control in 1886 than you were in Ryse, so people are really going to be vocal about it. People reamed the latter for optional finishers/QTEs.
I loved Ryse (all about the setting and purties) and I'm liking the "setting" and the "purties" in 1886.
I'd say people that don't like QTE or "having" to do everything an exact way (with no leeway) have a valid complaint.
Despite having interest in this game once upon a time I have to accept it's just not what I want from a game with such a stellar setting. Thankfully Bloodborne has come to the rescue but with The Order I can see how it can appeal to a certain crowd that enjoy David Cage brand of entertainment. Hope for the best for RAD.
Did you even watch this footage? There's clearly a strong shooter foundation in this game with cinematic trappings around it.
Nightengale
Member
I tried to steer it right, but looks like it's officially time to bail.
3DimensionalAperture
Banned
People embrace those shitty Crysis games that Ryse's dev makes that are just as "cinematic" and "tech-demo" heavy just to show off their fucking "gaming rig" even though they severely lack in interesting gameplay mechanics. On top of that, Crytek makes tech demos with boring "cinematic gameplay" all the time, but RAD has a very solid track record. And people have no problem jocking Quantum Break which ALSO is a cinematic tech demo with boring gameplay. Only this game for whatever reason is getting shat on incessantly for the most obtuse reasons.
False equivalence.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
More positive impressions, this time from Gamereactor UK. They of course mention some things that they were not too keen on (QTEs, the mini-games, the stealth section), and they were pretty high on the gunplay, the movement, and the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP9gNCgwfI
With written impressions here:http://www.gamereactor.eu/previews/276304/The+Order:+1886/
That said, this thread is heading for coockoo town, it's time for me to sleep anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP9gNCgwfI
With written impressions here:http://www.gamereactor.eu/previews/276304/The+Order:+1886/
That said, this thread is heading for coockoo town, it's time for me to sleep anyway.