I know. It really seems like some people were half listening to this show. There is no evidence tying Adnan to the crime. There is only Jays testimony which changed multiple times, and for him a pro bono lawyer PROVIDED BY THE PROSECUTION and he got off scot free. To think that the only thing that put you in prison is the testimony of the only person in the world that was tied to the murder is Insane.
Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective
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I know. It really seems like some people were half listening to this show. There is no evidence tying Adnan to the crime. There is only Jays testimony which changed multiple times, and for him a pro bono lawyer PROVIDED BY THE PROSECUTION and he got off scot free. To think that the only thing that put you in prison is the testimony of the only person in the world that was tied to the murder is Insane.
BuggyDClown
Member
I started out not believing jay and thinking adnan was innocent.
I now believe Jay is telling partial truths to cover for his involvement and they are both guilty. Adnan more so, but jay is purposefully leaving things out. Something isnt right.
That said I dont believe he should have been convicted based on the loose evidence they had. I just soeculate that on my own. Dude should probably be free, but I thinj he might truthfully belong there.
Did a run through during my flight today, got to hear it beggining to end nonstop was lots of fun.
Theme music is stuck in my head.
Was a good time if you havent listened, a complete marathon run through like I did was a great way to consume this.
I now believe Jay is telling partial truths to cover for his involvement and they are both guilty. Adnan more so, but jay is purposefully leaving things out. Something isnt right.
That said I dont believe he should have been convicted based on the loose evidence they had. I just soeculate that on my own. Dude should probably be free, but I thinj he might truthfully belong there.
Did a run through during my flight today, got to hear it beggining to end nonstop was lots of fun.
Theme music is stuck in my head.
Was a good time if you havent listened, a complete marathon run through like I did was a great way to consume this.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Nappuccino
Member
Who is that, Jay?
The_Inquisitor
Member
Effectively Jay is in a corner now. He either talks or doesn't talk. Neither is a win scenario.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Yeah.
Nappuccino
Member
I don't see how he's going to say anything new. Even if the statute of limitations is up, he's going to stick to his story--if he was going to do anything else, he wouldn't be asking for an interview.
edit: though, if he were going to rail on SK . . . I guess I can see him wanting to say something. Not sure how that's going to help him at all though.
The_Inquisitor
Member
He gains nothing by talking.
unpopularblargh
Member
I've been re-listening to the podcast from the beginning and I'm currently on the Jay episode. Anyone else find it weird why he'd ask Sarah "If not Adnan, than who did it?". Like why ask that question if you know he did it.
He just means rhetorically.
As in I saw Adnan with the body, he told me he did it, he was convicted -who is your alternative suspect given that Hae must have been killed by someone?
He could have just parked the car near the school and waited for Hae to drive past, in order to follow her. And since he knew about dna under fingernails, it's a least somewhat likely that he knew about cell towers too.
rottingcore
Banned
This.
Money, lots of it.
No wonder he's not actually doing the interview right now, he's offering one interview to the highest bidder.
NPR Fresh Air has a new interview with Sarah Koenig. The host had an annoying tendency to conflate events and details, but it's a nice postmortem that brings up topics I lingered on, like the show's consideration for Jay and Adnan's confrontation of SK back when she said he seemed like a good guy.
http://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/
http://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/
Maxwell House
Member
Except that Adnan was with Jay at the park between 6 and 8 PM as corroborated by the girl's (Cathy I think?) house they were at before they left and a phone call Adnan made during that time. The cops called Adnan in fact at around 6:15 PM when he was with Jay at that girl's house. Then they both left and were in Leakin Park the next couple of ours to bury Hae, as confirmed by cell pings the next two hours. And Jay's coworker said Jay was deathly scared of Adnan, not vice versa.
Oh, and multiple people heard Adnan ask Hae for a ride that afternoon. Jay sounded completely believable to me during his interviews in terms of what he said Adnan said about the breakup and bragging about killing Hae with his barehands. If there were more of a case for Jay having done it and framed Adnan, I think the defense would have tried that angle during trial but AFAIK, they didn't.
It also strikes me as funny that during the period Hae was missing, Adnan didn't call her a single time to see if she'd answer and to see if she was ok.
To believe Adnan is innocent, you have to ignore all this circumstantial evidence and ignore that he is the only person with a true motive in the case. You also have to believe that Jay is making up his story 100%. I don't see why Jay would do that and I certainly don't think Jay killed her. How would have had time to when Adnan was with him the whole time? And how did Jay get Hae in the car with him by himself?
It also struck me as funny how Adnan never seems pissed off when talking about Jay. If Adnan didn't do it, wouldn't you think he would be pissed off at Jay a bit more, knowing that Jay had to have been the one to kill her and that Jay must have framed him? Adnan during all his interviews sounds okay with his situation, not pissed off at the world.
BertramCooper
Banned
"...paid the ultimate price for Entertainment."
I guess we're getting confirmation that SK killed Hae.
What the fuck?
Wow, pretty big for a podcast to get an SNL sketch. I hope this leads to more awareness of podcasts!
EDIT: This was really well done.Obviously it's weird adding the visuals to a medium that doesn't have them. But they did a really good job.
It's even funnier because Fred Armisen did weekend update as Ira Glass once, but the sketch was cut because they didn't think enough people would know who he was. Shows how much bigger Serial is.
I mostly enjoyed the latter half.
She seemed more thrown by the popularity than the need for a solid ending. Found it very strange that she didn't like people listening for entertainment. I only really listen to TAL for entertainment, so it seemed kind of weird.
Not surprised she doesn't like the parodies since she said she's thin-skinned.
Not surprised she doesn't like the parodies since she said she's thin-skinned.
SuperPac
Member
I always thought Jay was a bit of an attention whore - he pretended to be "hard" to the cops, pretended to be connected to or know about all this criminal activity. Now he wants to relive the glory days by bringing attention back to himself. "Pathetic" indeed.
squidhands
Member
It seems my opinion of Jay isn't going to get any better, jeez.
I fucking knew it.
This feels like Pacific Rim all over again, where people are asking questions that were already answered in the movie.
You keep saying Jay, whose story changed fom the pre trial interview, to the first trial, to the second trial, sounds believable. He does not sound believable to me, especially since more than one of his friends said "jay lies". I guess our feeling cancel each other out.
Neither did Don (her current boyfriend at the time). Did Don kill Hae too?
Again, who is claiming that Adnan is innocent? Sarah's contention is that based on the hard evidence from the trial (not shifting stories from a well motivated witness or suspect phone records), the prosecution did not confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that Adnan did it. "Innocent" and "Not Guilty" are not the same thing. Are you comfortable with our judicial system putting away someone for life without at least some hard evidence or testimony that isn't solely based on a false narrative (come and get me, I"m at best buy does not seem to have actually happened)
It's also a false choice to say it's only either Adnan or Jay (IMO it's probably both). AFAIK, we don't even have hard proof that she died that specific day, only that she went missing that day.
I believe the retired detective said it in a conversation with Sarah, where the prosecution's goal is to get a conviction, not necessarily to have all the facts. Sometimes the two are the same, but not always.
During the letter scene in ep. 11, Adnan reiterates how he wanted to purely speak on the case in order to avoid any accusations of currying favor from Sarah. Imagine a potential appeal being ruined because Adnan went on a ten minute "Fuck Jay" tirade that aired on the radio, even if only to prove that Jay also had a part in the murder. Without any hard evidence to back it up, it would be Adnan's word vs Jay's, and we see how well that went for Adnan the first time.
You keep saying Jay, whose story changed fom the pre trial interview, to the first trial, to the second trial, sounds believable. He does not sound believable to me, especially since more than one of his friends said "jay lies". I guess our feeling cancel each other out.
Neither did Don (her current boyfriend at the time). Did Don kill Hae too?
Again, who is claiming that Adnan is innocent? Sarah's contention is that based on the hard evidence from the trial (not shifting stories from a well motivated witness or suspect phone records), the prosecution did not confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that Adnan did it. "Innocent" and "Not Guilty" are not the same thing. Are you comfortable with our judicial system putting away someone for life without at least some hard evidence or testimony that isn't solely based on a false narrative (come and get me, I"m at best buy does not seem to have actually happened)
It's also a false choice to say it's only either Adnan or Jay (IMO it's probably both). AFAIK, we don't even have hard proof that she died that specific day, only that she went missing that day.
I believe the retired detective said it in a conversation with Sarah, where the prosecution's goal is to get a conviction, not necessarily to have all the facts. Sometimes the two are the same, but not always.
During the letter scene in ep. 11, Adnan reiterates how he wanted to purely speak on the case in order to avoid any accusations of currying favor from Sarah. Imagine a potential appeal being ruined because Adnan went on a ten minute "Fuck Jay" tirade that aired on the radio, even if only to prove that Jay also had a part in the murder. Without any hard evidence to back it up, it would be Adnan's word vs Jay's, and we see how well that went for Adnan the first time.
sparky2112
Member
Well, he made it just under the wire, but that wins for the dumbest thing I've heard in 2014 that didn't spew from Fox News.
This only proves they were near the park, not that they dumped the body there. Maybe they smokes weed near the park, and that's when Jay decided to dump the body there.
Also, you know it's possible that Jay lied to his colleagues and friends, and that Adnan, after 15 years, has come to terms with things.
I'm not saying Adnan is innocent, but there's hardly any evidence. So he shouldn't be locked up.
Jay's coworker has no idea who Adnan is.
The defense sucked. Adnan had an ALIBI for the timeline that the prosecution was outlining and Adnan's attorney completely missed getting in touch with Asia about it.
Neither did Hae's then-boyfriend Don. It must have been a team-up!!
But what was Adnan's motive? That he was upset about the break-up? Because if you want to dip into the circumstantial evidence he-said, she-said pool, the vast majority of the people interviewed said they never once saw or thought of Adnan being broken up over it and that he had long moved on to plenty of other girls. He was even perfectly friendly with Don.
Adnan himself said in one of the last episodes that he never wanted to get in touch with people or rant about certain people for fear of negatively influencing a future appeal. But beside that, its been 15 years since he was sent to jail. He's made enough peace with his situation just to be able to cope with it by this point.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
So, my conclusion is that Adnan and Jay were involved in the murder, and since I can't pin a motive on Jay, I'll say it was Adnan who forged the plan and executed it with Jay's help. Here's why:
-The Nisha call is troublesome because it suggests Adnan was with his phone, and thus his car, at a time when he insisted he wasn't. Every other call was to a friend of Jay.
-Adnan (initially) and two other people stated that he asked Hae for a ride, which corresponds with what Jay said to police that Adnan would do. Devastating because Jay did not know in advance of the corroboration he would receive to that small, but significant, portion of his testimony.
-Jay knowing where the car was eliminates any theory of an unknown and random third party committing the crime, like the maintenance guy and the serial killer.
-The cell phone pings at leakin park, 9 minutes after we can confirm Adnan has the phone because of a call to a friend of his, is the most devastating. Based on what I've read regarding the direction the tower is facing, and the range, Adnan was not at the mosque.
In this scenario, Adnan cannot implicate Jay because he would have to admit at least partial guilt. Jay cracked first and got a much better deal than he should have, but if he didn't cooperate, nobody would have gone to jail, so I guess the prosecutors felt getting one was better than none. You can pick at each of the points I made above, but taken together, it's strong circumstantial evidence. Not enough to put someone away for life, IMO.
Really, the only lingering questions I have are the role that Jenn played, given how many times jay called her at key times, and whether Jay assisted in the actual murder. I believe he did, though I don't know the extent, obviously.
-The Nisha call is troublesome because it suggests Adnan was with his phone, and thus his car, at a time when he insisted he wasn't. Every other call was to a friend of Jay.
-Adnan (initially) and two other people stated that he asked Hae for a ride, which corresponds with what Jay said to police that Adnan would do. Devastating because Jay did not know in advance of the corroboration he would receive to that small, but significant, portion of his testimony.
-Jay knowing where the car was eliminates any theory of an unknown and random third party committing the crime, like the maintenance guy and the serial killer.
-The cell phone pings at leakin park, 9 minutes after we can confirm Adnan has the phone because of a call to a friend of his, is the most devastating. Based on what I've read regarding the direction the tower is facing, and the range, Adnan was not at the mosque.
In this scenario, Adnan cannot implicate Jay because he would have to admit at least partial guilt. Jay cracked first and got a much better deal than he should have, but if he didn't cooperate, nobody would have gone to jail, so I guess the prosecutors felt getting one was better than none. You can pick at each of the points I made above, but taken together, it's strong circumstantial evidence. Not enough to put someone away for life, IMO.
Really, the only lingering questions I have are the role that Jenn played, given how many times jay called her at key times, and whether Jay assisted in the actual murder. I believe he did, though I don't know the extent, obviously.
This one isn't that troubling...the last episode addressed this head. It is possible that a butt-dial occurred as Adnan hypothesized and because of how ATT does billing, it may have happened exactly that way.
These same people were asked to remember what amounted to a random day 6 weeks earlier. Lets not forget that Asia is an alibi...she remembered that day and literally wrote to him at the time.
As others here mentioned, it's possible that the cops knew where the car was and they fed that info to Jay...this seems like a stretch to me though. Jay knows who the murderer is, no doubt.
Perhaps but if he was at the library (with witnesses) during the time the police say he committed the murder, what does the rest matter?
Jay knows...that is all that I am certain about and I agree with you that there isn't enough evidence here to lock someone away forever. I'm looking forward to seeing what the results of the DNA tests show.
I was a little confused about the timeline on the Nisha call. Because Nisha says when she got the call, it was from Adnan and Jay together at the porn store. But Koenig points out that Jay hadn't started working there until later in the month. So is the rationale then that Nisha is conflating two separate calls -- the possible butt-dial with the porn shop call from later on -- into the "Nisha Call" that implicates Adnan?
If so, wouldn't that mean Adnan and Jay were still hanging out after Hae's murder, when Jay is supposedly terrified of him?
The way all of the conflicting stories with is that for any circumstance where one wants to make Adnan look guilty, there is one of many testimonies that you can pull from to support it.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
I disagree. There are 3 options here:
1. Adnan placed the call to Nisha, his friend
2. Jay chose to call Nisha, someone he didn't know
3. Jay butt-dialed Nisha, which makes it a terribly unlucky coincidence for Adnan's defense
Out of those, and, without bias, you'd have to concede that #1 is most likely. I already stated that you could nitpick each of my points away, and obviously I know about the butt dial possibility, but it's the least likely option imo. So I think it's really troubling for Adnan.
Asia's testimony is clearly Adnan's best alibi, but here is why I weighed it less important than the other points I listed:
1. Her specific recollections of the weather that day are wrong, and considering how detailed her recollection was otherwise, it leads me to conclude that she was thinking of another day.
2. Neither her boyfriend, or her boyfriend's friend, who were both interviewed on episode 1, recall that incident. That leaves only Asia.
Yep, I think it's reaching to think the cops found the car but refused to investigate it until they could frame Adnan by feeding the info to Jay. For sure, Jay was a part of this murder. It is my belief that, not only did he help bury the body, but he was a bigger part of the actual murder.
As I said, it's basically one witness, and that witness' recollection of the day suggests she was remembering a different day, not January 13th.
Here's what I think it can show:
1. Jay's dna, which would suggest a bigger role for him in the murder
2. Don's dna, which would possibly exonerate Adnan. This seems unlikely to me because of, most troubling, the Adnan cell phone pinging from Leakin park. Also, considering Don and Hae were sexually active, it would have to be very specific and damning dna evidence to point to Don.
3. A third party unknown to Adnan, but known to Jay. Some of the same questions above would have to be answered, but it would at least open an even bigger reasonable doubt narrative.
4. Adnan's DNA, which would confirm that he was the killer. Considering Hae had moved on, and that Adnan claims no contact with her that day (remember, he denies being in her car that day), there should not be any of Adnan's dna on Hae.
The Nisha call was placed from Adnan's phone at a time when Jay is supposed to have Adnan's phone, but Adnan was not supposed to be with Jay. It did not connect, and there was no voicemail available. Nisha states that she received a call where she spoke to both Jay and Adnan, but that was at another time, we are not sure when that happened.
CrichtonKicks
Member
You are confusing this- The idea that it didn't connect is from Adnan. That's the butt dial which you said you didn't think was likely.
The prosecution says that it did connect and Nisha talked to both Adnan and Jay.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
You are correct, and that's a worse outcome for Adnan. The three possibilities for the call I listed are still valid, and I stand by which is most likely. The fact that Nisha remembers talking to Jay is devastating.
CrichtonKicks
Member
But she specifically remembers that it happened at the video store. Where jay did not yet have a job.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
I get that, she is wrong about that, no doubt. But she remembers speaking to Jay, who is not a friend of hers, along with Adnan. If that particular call didn't happen on that day, and it happened afterwards, then we go back to my original timeline, where it never connected, but the 3 scenarios (in terms of who called) are the same, no? Did the defense rebut the Nisha testimony with Adnan's phone records showing a subsequent Nisha call where Adnan could have introduced her to Jay?
edit: I ask this because Jay also recalls talking to Nisha and remembers where she lives, which means they definitely spoke, so I imagine the defense would have needed to counter this with a plausible alternate call where Jay and Nisha would have spoken.
CrichtonKicks
Member
I don't think anyone on the defense or prosecution disputes that there was a call at some point where Nisha talked to Jay and Adnan at the same time. That isn't damning at all since Jay and Adnan hang out together. However the prosecution says that it happened at a specific time and place that ties Jay and Adnan together shortly after Hae's murder and corroborates Jay's story. If the call happens at another time then it's meaningless.
Also, I believe Koenig did say that the video store inconsistency was brought up by the defense but they never really hammered it.
Maxwell House
Member
The idea that the Nisha call was some 2 and half minute butt dial is pretty hard to digest, especially when Nisha herself remembers talking to both of them that day. Sure parts of her story about being at the porn store don't match up with them being in the car and the fact that Jay hadn't worked at the porn store yet but given that it was that long and she thinks that was the day they called and the right call, I think she is more likely just mixing up details of the call an circumstances.
It is extremely hard to believe it was some random butt dial. That just doesn't hold any water to me at all.
And I also believe that Hae was killed later in the day than the trial said. I think Jay might well have lied about the timing of events to preclude him from possibly helping Adnan actually murder Hae. Much of the evidence points to Hae dying hours later than we were led to believe.
I am convinced Adnan was the main person behind it and the person who wanted her dead. I believe Jay could have helped him actually kill Hae, not just bury her, which would likely be why he has changed his story so he isn't found as a co-murderer. But, no matter what, I believe Adnan definitely was the main person behind her killing. He either did it himself or with Jay. There is just no way he didn't help kill her at all IMO.
The fact that Adnan whispered pathetic to Jay in the courtroom makes me think even more that Jay probably actually helped Adnan kill her and that he was pissed that Jay ratted him out to the police when they both had an agreement not to say shit.
It is extremely hard to believe it was some random butt dial. That just doesn't hold any water to me at all.
And I also believe that Hae was killed later in the day than the trial said. I think Jay might well have lied about the timing of events to preclude him from possibly helping Adnan actually murder Hae. Much of the evidence points to Hae dying hours later than we were led to believe.
I am convinced Adnan was the main person behind it and the person who wanted her dead. I believe Jay could have helped him actually kill Hae, not just bury her, which would likely be why he has changed his story so he isn't found as a co-murderer. But, no matter what, I believe Adnan definitely was the main person behind her killing. He either did it himself or with Jay. There is just no way he didn't help kill her at all IMO.
The fact that Adnan whispered pathetic to Jay in the courtroom makes me think even more that Jay probably actually helped Adnan kill her and that he was pissed that Jay ratted him out to the police when they both had an agreement not to say shit.
Seems possible that Nisha spoke to Jay and Adnan at the video store at some point. Do we know if they were still buddies and hanging out after supposedly burying Hae together (and after Jay claims to have been threatened into it)?
Adnan saying Jay was more acquaintance than friend still bugs me but I get that in high school, close-seeming friends can be transient.
Gotta say I was a bit taken aback by the Adnan call snippet at the beginning of episode 12. It sounded like SK had gotten into such a casual tone. I guess when you've been talking for months, the tone lightens but it's still a journalist interviewing a subject.
Adnan saying Jay was more acquaintance than friend still bugs me but I get that in high school, close-seeming friends can be transient.
Gotta say I was a bit taken aback by the Adnan call snippet at the beginning of episode 12. It sounded like SK had gotten into such a casual tone. I guess when you've been talking for months, the tone lightens but it's still a journalist interviewing a subject.
Maybe I'm old, but I remember cell phones in 1999. It was very easy to accidentally call someone if you programmed speed dial into your phone. If you held down "2" for about 3 seconds or more-it will call whoever you've stored as the speed dial in that button. I had my girlfriend as #2 on my phone. This is all before sophisticated phone interfaces, mind you.
Maxwell House
Member
The fact that she mixes up some facts doesn't mean she was wrong about talking to Jay and Adnan that day. It is certainly more believable than the call being some random 2 and a half minute butt dial. I think many phones back then weren't as easy to butt dial. Many were clam shells that prevented that if I remember correctly. I wonder if they know what kind of cell phone Jay had back then.
And besides, how would you not notice a butt dial for 2 and a half minutes and why wouldn't Nisha answer it after 2 and a half minutes of ringing? It's a pretty unlikely thing to have happened, especially given that Nisha herself remembers talking to them that day.
Christoff Yurievich
Member
As a non-smartphone user, let me tell you - it's still that easy.
Why are you only "believing" the inconsistencies that match up to your own personal bias? Why are the other inconsistencies just hand waved away?
Maxwell House
Member
It isn't about inconsistencies, it is about probabilities. Nisha remembers talking to them that day. Phone records show a 2 and a half minute call to Nisha from their phone that day. Jay told the cops Adnan put him on the phone with Nisha during that call. Nisha testifies that is what she remembers as well.
Is that a more probable chance of what happened or is it more likely that Jay accidently butt dialed her for 2 and a half minutes, she never picked up and both are misremembering talking to each other that exact call? And why is it so hard to believe that Adnan called her while being in Jay's car? We know that people saw the two together all throughout that entire day and night. Adnan admitted driving around with Jay that day in fact.
Remember, Jay is the one who told the cops that the call was Adnan calling Nisha on the phone in the car and that during the conversation Adnan put Jay on the line. When the cops asked Nisha about it, she confirmed every one of those details to be true, that Adnan called her that day and that he put Jay on the call. It checks out pretty well IMO and actually lends pretty big credence to Jay's story.
Not when it comes to convicting someone in a murder trial.
CrichtonKicks
Member
You have it backwards- phones back then were far easier to butt dial. Why would you notice a butt dial? If the phone is in your pocket it can be very hard to hear the ring tone.
And she wouldn't pick up if she wasn't home. He didn't call a cell phone. She had a personal phone line at home that didn't have an answering machine.
So Nisha was right about getting a call from Adnan and Jay that day, but wrong about all the details of the call? And Hae was killed later in that day just because that makes more sense to you regardless of what the investigators said? And Adnan did it, despite all the facts that point to otherwise or rampant inconsistencies in the case against him? You're as bad as the jury.
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