Serial: Season 01 Discussion - This American Life meets True Detective

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The fact that she mixes up some facts doesn't mean she was wrong about talking to Jay and Adnan that day. It is certainly more believable than the call being some random 2 and a half minute butt dial. I think many phones back then weren't as easy to butt dial. Many were clam shells that prevented that if I remember correctly. I wonder if they know what kind of cell phone Jay had back then.

And besides, how would you not notice a butt dial for 2 and a half minutes and why wouldn't Nisha answer it after 2 and a half minutes of ringing? It's a pretty unlikely thing to have happened, especially given that Nisha herself remembers talking to them that day.

If Nisha isn't with her phone, it'll just ring and ring. The phone contract said non-connected calls will be billed if they're over 1-2 minutes, and this call was over 2 minutes. She had no answering service on her phone. These are 1999 phones, they aren't too sophisticated.

Nisha never said she was put on with Jay multiple times, does she? Just that Adnan called her once and put Jay on. I guess the video store was brought up because that's a detail she remembers.

I just think even if it puts Adnan somewhere near that cell tower with Jay... is that proof of a murder? All this evidence is really thin, and can be explained. It's not like they found blood in anyone's car, or at either scene.
 
If Nisha isn't with her phone, it'll just ring and ring. The phone contract said non-connected calls will be billed if they're over 1-2 minutes, and this call was over 2 minutes. She had no answering service on her phone. These are 1999 phones, they aren't too sophisticated.

Actually it was "a reasonable time," which they determined being at least 30-60 seconds.
 
I get that, she is wrong about that, no doubt. But she remembers speaking to Jay, who is not a friend of hers, along with Adnan. If that particular call didn't happen on that day, and it happened afterwards, then we go back to my original timeline, where it never connected, but the 3 scenarios (in terms of who called) are the same, no? Did the defense rebut the Nisha testimony with Adnan's phone records showing a subsequent Nisha call where Adnan could have introduced her to Jay?

edit: I ask this because Jay also recalls talking to Nisha and remembers where she lives, which means they definitely spoke, so I imagine the defense would have needed to counter this with a plausible alternate call where Jay and Nisha would have spoken.

I don't know if they spoke at that time but if I were the defense attorney, it would be pretty easy to sow doubt into the jury about it all. Nisha could easily have conflated two separate events in her mind...Let's not forget that it took 6 weeks from Hae's disappearance to Adnan's arrest and I imagine it may have taken a bit longer to go through all the contacts on the phone. Can any one us remember a random call from a month and a half ago? Can you recall the location that call came from?

Secondly, let's remember it was 1999 and phones with pass-locks didn't yet exist. Butt-dialing was a very common occurrence...it literally happened to my friends all the time. Did they ever mention the phone Adnan had at the time? For a "butt-dial" to occur, it'd have to be a "candy-bar" type phone, right? Not a "clam-shell"?

I can't answer your specific question regarding the defense though but I wanted to put down my thoughts. :P
 
Actually it was "a reasonable time," which they determined being at least 30-60 seconds.

Okay, so 30-60 and not 60-120. The call was closer to 150, so it would have been billed.

The fact that Adnan whispered pathetic to Jay in the courtroom makes me think even more that Jay probably actually helped Adnan kill her and that he was pissed that Jay ratted him out to the police when they both had an agreement not to say shit.

Or maybe he was pathetic because he lied on the stand for the prosecutor and cops who paid for his lawyers and didn't charge him with a crime he confessed to. If I was innocent I'd think Jay was beyond pathetic.
 
I don't know if they spoke at that time but if I were the defense attorney, it would be pretty easy to sow doubt into the jury about it all.

Nisha talked to Jay and Adnan on a call, that needs to be explained imo by the defense. And the easiest way would be to show a subsequent Nisha call on Adnan's phone records, which is why I asked if that was ever brought up.

We know Jay lied, we can't assume that Nisha, Jenn, Officer Adcock, the two girls who said that Adnan asked Hae for a ride, and Jay's friend at the video store were all liars too. All while assuming that Asia was telling the truth. I can agree that there was not evidence to convict, but we aren't a jury, which is why I can feel confident in my belief that Jay and Adnan were involved.
 
Nisha talked to Jay and Adnan on a call, that needs to be explained imo by the defense. And the easiest way would be to show a subsequent Nisha call on Adnan's phone records, which is why I asked if that was ever brought up.

We know Jay lied, we can't assume that Nisha, Jenn, Officer Adcock, the two girls who said that Adnan asked Hae for a ride, and Jay's friend at the video store were all liars too. All while assuming that Asia was telling the truth. I can agree that there was not evidence to convict, but we aren't a jury, which is why I can feel confident in my belief that Jay and Adnan were involved.

I have a ton to say but not the time at the moment, but I did want to say I was pretty sure the show mentioned Nisha and Adnan spoke frequently. Excluding the maybe butt dial, there are four or five calls to her phone in the two days of call logs on the Serial site, so maybe we can infer that there are likely several additional calls to Nisha on Adnan's bill. I don't think Nisha lied. But I do think her testimony reveals she didn't speak to Jay and Adnan that day and that call came later.
 
Interview: What's Next for the "Serial" Investigation by UVA Law

A really interesting audio interview with Deirdre Enright, and the students working on the Innocence Project.

Almost like a bonus Serial episode.

MP3 link to the same interview

http://www.law.virginia.edu/podcast/1415/serial.mp3






2 hairs found on her body that couldn't be matched to Adnan.

Fingerprints on her rear-view mirror that didn't match her or Adnan.

HER FINGERNAILS WERE CLIPPED AND SAVED, BUT NEVER TESTED FOR DNA?!?! - Why were those never tested? I mean if it has Adnan's DNA then ...welp ...BUT if it has some unidentified person's DNA. Why would nobody test those!?
 
VICE article about a 'tiny detail bothering them'...

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/serial-cell-data

MOTHERBOARD: Hey, Professor Imwinkelried. The reason I’m calling you is because I saw your name cited as a source in a Washington Post article written by Tom Jackman this year, and in turn that article was referenced in Serial. Have you heard of Serial? The podcast?

​Imwinkelried: No, I’m afraid I haven’t. No.

MOTHERBOARD: Oh OK, never mind, I’ll just jump into it: Is the use of evidence gathered from cell-phone towers reliable and accurate when trying to pinpoint a person’s location, say, in a murder case?

​​Imwinkelried: The important thing to realize is that cell-phone technology was not designed as a technology for locating people. It’s a communications technology. It’s one thing when using a technology specifically designed for locating—GPS—it’s another thing when you try to adapt a technology which was never designed for that purpose.

GPS is the technology to locate people. The problem is, in the past, many of the cases have involved cell phones without GPS, and there they’ve been relying on these supposed assumptions that the phone connects to the closest tower, or the tower with the strongest signal.

MOTHERBOARD: So they’re not reliable at all? Location evidence gathered using cell-phone towers isn’t good science?

​​Imwinkelried: They were never intended to serve that function.

The decision as to which tower to connect to isn’t made by the cell tower, it isn’t made by the phone, it’s made by the network computers. And what are the network computers interested in? Balancing the load, using all the towers in the network.

And that’s why you can sit in your room in a 10-minute period, make three cell-phone calls, and connect to three different towers. You haven’t moved at all, but you’ve connected to three different towers.
 
VICE article about a 'tiny detail bothering them'...

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/serial-cell-data

So, I decided to call up Edward J. Imwink​elried myself, a law professor at the University of California, Davis, expert on the admissibility of cell-tower evidence, and, most importantly, one of the sources from the very Washington Post article referenced in "Route Talk."

WTF Imwinkelried was my first year contracts professor, a friend and I once housesat for him...
 
I was gripped the whole time but I found myself lacking a strong opinion on guilt or innocence.

Don't get me wrong, the State clearly had multiple faulty lines of reasoning but what you're left with is a lot of conjecture, he said/he said, and muddled waters.

While the scanty evidence points towards Adnan, from all accounts, he was neither murderous or premeditated, leaving only the "heat of the moment" type of motivation from the crime.
 
I was gripped the whole time but I found myself lacking a strong opinion on guilt or innocence.

Don't get me wrong, the State clearly had multiple faulty lines of reasoning but what you're left with is a lot of conjecture, he said/he said, and muddled waters.

While the scanty evidence points towards Adnan, from all accounts, he was neither murderous or premeditated, leaving only the "heat of the moment" type of motivation from the crime.
Which means you should acquit. Beyond reasonable doubt.
 
While the scanty evidence points towards Adnan, from all accounts, he was neither murderous or premeditated

I wouldn't say from all accounts. There is the note that says "will kill" or whatever that Adnan and the girl say was written in jest. There's the note in Hae's journal implying that Adnan was angry about a breakup, though they may have been together after that.

In terms of pre meditation, he told Jay that he was going to "kill that bitch". He also told Jay on January 13 his plan was to kill her that day, and Jay told Jen this before the murder around noon. The stated plan was to get a ride from Hae, and we have enough witnesses that testify he was asking her for a ride, including Adnan initially. That is a tough thing to explain away considering he had a working car that he loaned to Jay.

As usual, you can tease apart each one of those points, but overall it's hard to shake away all of them.


Which means you should acquit. Beyond reasonable doubt.

He should not have been convicted based on what was presented at trial, the state needed to do a better investigation and I'm sure they could've built a stronger case against Adnan, by doing things like testing for dna etc. They also gave Jay too much of a sweetheart deal and didn't probe deeply enough into his role. I feel like only half of the people responsible for that murder are serving time.
 
So I just finished episode 8, and I have to say it was the best episode yet. It was really thought provoking to hear the "Jay is the real killer" narrative be so effectively countered just by talking to the guy for a bit and hearing about his life story. At least for me, simply adding a physical description and a bit of background makes it so much harder to believe he killed someone than when he was just a faceless name only talked about in the third person.

Given that, I can understand a bit more the jury's negative reaction to Adnan not testifying in his defense, but it was still incredibly disheartening to hear that they held it against him. There's a reason why the defendant has a right not to testify under the Constitution. A good cross examination can and will fuck up almost anyone. (on that note, Adnan's lawyer did a hoooooorible job cross examining Jay. A good cross exam should lay out all of the points in logical order but stop just short of asking the final question. If you can ask your questions in such a way that the jury comes to the conclusion you want them to have without spelling it out for them 100%, they will hold on to that conclusion all the more strongly because it is now their conclusion, not your conclusion. Plus, if you ask one question too many like "so you lied" all you do is give the witness a chance to explain it all away. Not only did Adnan's lawyer ask one question too many, she asked twenty questions too many, because she just kept belaboring the same point over and over.)
 
Read an interesting speculation on the subreddit, about how the killer is a third person, not Jay or Adnan. This would be a more "hard core thug" type of guy who Jay knows, who was in the car with Jay when he had borrowed it from Adnan, and they randomly met Hae who knew Jay and Adnan's car (and gets in it, or let Jay + friend into hers).

This explains how Jay knows things such as where her car was. And also why he was scared of the killer as told by the former co-worker. Also the deeper male voice Jenn heard when she called, while the body was being buried.
Jay would rather frame Adnan than snitching on this dangerous person (who threatened to hurt Stephanie). As people keep mentioning everywhere, the best lies are the ones based on truth.

Warning, wall of text, no paragraphs. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2ql6i4/far_fetched_but_what_if/
 
Read an interesting speculation on the subreddit, about how the killer is a third person, not Jay or Adnan. This would be a more "hard core thug" type of guy who Jay knows, who was in the car with Jay when he had borrowed it from Adnan, and they randomly met Hae who knew Jay and Adnan's car (and gets in it, or let Jay + friend into hers).

It seems pretty farfetched to think that someone would strangle a woman to death in broad daylight for turning down a date.
 
It seems pretty farfetched to think that someone would strangle a woman to death in broad daylight for turning down a date.

Maybe. I don't think it's too far fetched though... women get in trouble all the time for turning down dates or ignoring guys advances, and if it was this drug dealing criminal thug guy I can imagine her strong personality combined with not doing as he wish, could maybe make him see red. And according to the OP, places like the mall parking lot would be pretty deserted during the day in that town. And it wasn't planned.
 
But why do we even have to stretch for such a random event occurring when we a have Adnan? Why bother? Unless you really really don't want to believe Adnan did it, I fail to understand why people make up these alternative hypothesis that, while technically plausible, are far less probable than supposing Adnan did it.
 
Maybe. I don't think it's too far fetched though... women get in trouble all the time for turning down dates or ignoring guys advances, and if it was this drug dealing criminal thug guy I can imagine her strong personality combined with not doing as he wish, could maybe make him see red. And according to the OP, places like the mall parking lot would be pretty deserted during the day in that town. And it wasn't planned.

Why would a drug dealing criminal thug guy strangle Hae to death? A drug dealing criminal thug guy is going to be carrying a weapon of some sort.

How many thugs do you know that strangle people?

As the post above me says, this is technically possible but not very plausible.
 
Why would a drug dealing criminal thug guy strangle Hae to death? A drug dealing criminal thug guy is going to be carrying a weapon of some sort.

Maybe he did have a weapon but strangled her out of exploding rage, or maybe he didn't have it on him that day, or maybe he didn't have one.

How many thugs do you know that strangle people?

What kind of a question is that? I'm not saying thugs go around strangling people, as if it was a modus operandi of all. I don't know any thugs for the record, or stranglers.


As the post above me says, this is technically possible but not very plausible.

Maybe. I don't think it's that crazy, if Jay hung out with shady people, and he had borrowed Adnan's car and phone.... why wouldn't he pick up one of his friends/associates? It's not that outlandish imho.

If it's true that Jay really was afraid for his life, and/or Steph's, like the coworker says.. I find it more in line with this speculation, than that he was afraid of Adnan or his "Westside Hitman"...
 
What kind of a question is that? I'm not saying thugs go around strangling people, as if it was a modus operandi of all. I don't know any thugs for the record, or stranglers.

Strangling is a pretty intimate and rare method of killing is all I am saying. People who are hothead criminal lowlifes will start throwing punches probably before they even think to choke someone to death.

To go from "Jay hung out with shady people" to "Jay hung out with someone who would strangle a stranger in broad daylight" is a pretty huge leap. All Jay did was sell weed to high school kids -- he's not some badass straight out of The Wire. Beyond that, not everyone in the drug trade is a violent psychopath. And even the violent drug dealers are largely violent over the sake of money and competition.
 
The thug strangler theory is a little farfetched to me, but it falls in the territory of my three possible scenarios in this case:

1) Adnan killed Hae
2) Jay killed Hae
3) Someone else Jay is scared of killed Hae (I know: "Why?" Damned if I know. I'm just saying it's in the realm of possibility)

Part of the problem with this podcast and this case are that we don't know all the actors in this world -- just those who have been presented through Serial (and maybe via Reddit if you've been looking there).

I'm really 50-50 on the case -- I don't think Adnan presents a great case that anything that's said about him is false... what rings the truest to me are his concerns about how he's pained by the fact that people think he's a monster or that they just won't believe what he says is the truth-- he may just be a great liar, but he seems so genuine on those fronts... penning a massive letter to Sarah Koenig that was not apparently intended as "something to air," is noteworthy to me.

I don't subscribe to the Reddit theory that there was massive police malfeasance involved in the case, but I do suppose it to be possible that some inculpatory details may have been unintentionally handed to Jay ("Did Adnan ask Hae for a ride that day?")

But on the Jay front, he could certainly be telling the truth, but I'm not sold on the idea that he isn't full of it. I don't think he's a criminal mastermind, but if the scenario is Adnan didn't kill Hae, certainly it wouldn't be surprising that Jay would point the finger in that direction.

I hope that Adnan did kill Hae, simply because then it's just a headscratcher of "why did he get convicted with such a shaky case?" I think the alternative is pretty terrible. Either way, I think Serial was a worthwhile project, because I don't think Adnan should have been convicted... though reading Reddit (really, stop doing this, self!) the discussion I'm seeing from lawyers -- or the best fake lawyers ever -- is that even in the first trial Gutierrez's opening arguments were a horrible train wreck... so maybe that's how it happened.

I keep saying I'm going to write more, but I realize I could go on about this forever... and perhaps there's a healthy amount of time and an unhealthy amount of time.
 
I thought this was absolutely gripping and enthralling listening. Stumbled on it the morning I went for a walk and decided I was going to catch TAL and it was episode 1 of Serial. I'm sure I would have found it on GAF anyway. I can't wait for season 2 and what the next story will be. Hopefully, not a murder mystery.

There are way too many inconsistencies for me to had convicted Adnan.
 
Does Jay say anything significant? Can't listen to it now.

He changes some things about the timeline earlier in the day.

He says he first saw Hae's body in the trunk in front of his grandmother's house, not at Best Buy.

The most major timeline change, he says they dug the hole and buried the body after midnight, or closer to midnight.
 

As tempting as this is to take seriously, he has had enough time to listen to the case as presented on Serial and adjust his story, whatever his involvement, accordingly. You cant take any story given after the fact seriously because it taints testimony.

I dont blame him for wanting to handle damage control on his own life, especially with people accussing him of murder, but his story might as well be useless at changing peoples opinions.
 
Maybe I missed it, but what exactly is so "rock solid" about Don's alibi? The way they explain it, his entire alibi was that he was clocked in at LensCrafters for the whole day. But it's really not that hard to just leave while still on the clock (especially if you're planning on committing a crime and need an alibi). On top of this, his supervisor wasn't even sure he was actually there.
 

At the Best Buy?

Yes.

Is this when you first saw Hae’s body in the trunk of her car?

No. I saw her body later, in front of of my grandmother’s house where I was living. I didn’t tell the cops it was in front of my house because I didn’t want to involve my grandmother. I believe I told them it was in front of ‘Cathy’s [not her real name] house, but it was in front of my grandmother’s house. I know it didn’t happen anywhere other than my grandmother’s house. I remember the highway traffic to my right, and I remember standing there on the curb. I remember Adnan standing next to me.

Damnit Jay, stick to a story!
 
Maybe I missed it, but what exactly is so "rock solid" about Don's alibi? The way they explain it, his entire alibi was that he was clocked in at LensCrafters for the whole day. But it's really not that hard to just leave while still on the clock (especially if you're planning on committing a crime and need an alibi). On top of this, his supervisor wasn't even sure he was actually there.

Deirdre mentions this, but it's never really brought up again. The counter to this is then, what the hell is Jay up to if Don did it?
 
As tempting as this is to take seriously, he has had enough time to listen to the case as presented on Serial and adjust his story, whatever his involvement, accordingly. You cant take any story given after the fact seriously because it taints testimony.
The weird thing is his latest story doesn't match the key pieces of evidence presented during the trial or podcast. His timeline contradicts the State's, Adnan's, his friends', and the cell phone towers. For example, he says he went to Kathy's between 3 - 4 PM, but we have Kathy, Adnan, and cell phone records that suggest this occured 5 or 6ish at the earliest. Instead of picking a couple verifiable times and events from that day and building his story around those, he's created a new one.

Is this new story the complete truth? Is he deliberately being misleading? Is he doing his best to tell the truth, but missing the mark because his memory sucks? Is he still covering for some people?
 
Deirdre mentions this, but it's never really brought up again. The counter to this is then, what the hell is Jay up to if Don did it?

Presumably he was involved in a number of transactions throughout the day. Hopefully, the police looked at these records and verified that he was at the store when he said he was. I don't know if they did, though.
 
Jay's new story is that he never saw Hae's body at Best Buy. He never saw her car there. That was my biggest hang-up, that the Best Buy was the murder scene. Jay changing that part of the story makes it more believable. Too bad he didn't say that 15 years ago.
 
Jay comes off pretty bad in that interview. "Oh I think I heard she had a new boyfriend,"

"People were starting to find out Adnad was a loser."

He's also telling a whole entirely new timeline of events after he picks up Adnad. Jesus Christ.
 
I think the most interesting thing is that he says the burial didn't happen until after midnight, when a key chunk of the state's case (and the arguments of people who are convinced Adnan did it) are that the "Leakin Park" cell tower pings between 7 and 8 indicate that they're there burying the body. (EDIT: Why are people mentioning cell towers? Because for some people they're the most concrete evidence of Adnan's guilt)

I don't think this changes anything with regard to my total fence-sitting on the case... rather, it only further muddies the waters. To read Jay's words they come across as believable, so I guess there's that... but do I actually believe them? I'm not sure. I would say that maybe there's no use in maintaining a lie so many years after the fact, but given the elevated profile of this case, maybe that's not the case.

I still hope (but don't expect) there's something revelatory to come from the evidence project's bid to have DNA testing done.
 
Hard to take anything Jay says as evidence of anything now since: a) he's had time since Serial started to adjust his story accordingly, and b) his story is significantly different now compared to the (more than) one he testified with back then.

I can buy Jay deliberately misleading police because he was afraid that dealing weed would fuck him over, and once he realized they didn't care about that, he'd open up more with the truth; you can it in his voice on the recordings when the detectives basically say they don't give a shit about that.

What I don't buy is how he actually changed his story, though. Because he was always copping to being an accessory to the murder; Adnan being the murderer and Jay helping him was always part of the story. What he kept changing were a lot of the details and timetables, which don't make sense to me as a way of protecting himself. Why would he admit to Adnan showing him Hae's body and helping to bury her, but change when it happened? He's afraid of going to jail for selling weed, so instead of saying they buried Hae after midnight he says it happened in the afternoon? What possible bearing does that have on protecting himself?
 
I was always iffy about adnan but now even more so with this new interview jay did. Dude is a liar. Plain and simple. Whatever happened they shouldnt have convicted adnan with as little evidence and jay as a witness.
 
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