Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 12-18 | DaiGOAT

I seriously hadn't messed with Injustice lately so when I was told "hook up the xboxes and make sure you set them to a hotspot" I was like "oh boy this can't possibly go wrong".

It's even worse when it's a hotel venue, since all hotel internet requires you to interact with a window for access, and that ain't happening on a console. I think we had to get a hard ethernet line and then find the hotel's network admin guy to give us a key code. Something like that.

And let's not forget that quitting out of the game to go to the xbox menu makes the hot fixes go away. Because of course it does.
 
I can't imagine Injustice being at Evo 2015 after the clusterfuck that was Injustice at Evo 2014. Not anybody's fault, really, just the nature of hot fixes and the XBox 360. Makes the game a huge pain to run at large offline tournaments.

Also, Charlie has a mark on his forehead?

Oh my god he's Harry Potter.

To be fair to Injustice, patching should have occurred prior to the tournament starting, ideally before they get the systems to the venue or at least while they're setting up the day before. They didn't do it for SFxT in 2013 either and we had to patch it that year before they were even usable. I don't recall 2012 though but for a tournament of its size, it amazes me that getting the systems ready isn't the first thing to be considered after securing all the necessary resources.

Though hotfixes sux
 
To be fair to Injustice, patching should have occurred prior to the tournament starting, ideally before they get the systems to the venue or at least while they're setting up the day before. They didn't do it for SFxT in 2013 either and we had to patch it that year before they were even usable. I don't recall 2012 though but for a tournament of its size, it amazes me that getting the systems ready isn't the first thing to be considered after securing all the necessary resources.

Though hotfixes sux

Doesn't work. You need access to the internet when the game starts up, then you can't quit out of the game (say by turning the system off) or the hot fixes go away.

They're not real patches so they don't stay on the console. I also think that getting the hot fixes might even require an xbox live account (which neither of the systems at my station had at Evo). I don't think it's the same situation as SFxT in 2013.
 
To be fair, I think Xrd and KI go as far as they can go for people who are actually interested in learning the ins and outs of the mechanics of their game. The amount of people that don't really care about that are still, from my experience, a much bigger crowd.
 
To be fair, I think Xrd and KI go as far as they can go for people who are actually interested in learning the ins and outs of the mechanics of their game. The amount of people that don't really care about that are still, from my experience, a much bigger crowd.

Yup tons of people just jump online and mash buttons and ignore the tools there that teach
 
People don't fail to learn because of lack of resources to do so. To increase the ratio of players who learn how to play the game semi-competently, you've got to entertain them while teaching them, or ideally, teach them without them knowing they're even being taught. Labeling something as a 'tutorial' means you've already failed to do this.
 
People don't fail to learn because of lack of resources to do so. To increase the ratio of players who learn how to play the game semi-competently, you've got to entertain them while teaching them, or ideally, teach them without them knowing they're even being taught. Labeling something as a 'tutorial' means you've already failed to do this.

That is what I was saying. :)
 
imagine a training mode where you have to do sort of platform or sidescrolling beat-em-ups accomplishments.

you have robots coming towards you. the blue ones can only be defeated by hadoukens. green ones by hurricane kicks.

you can get up on a platform with DP motion. etc. make em interactive rather than just a dummy soaking hits.
 
imagine a training mode where you have to do sort of platform or sidescrolling beat-em-ups accomplishments.

you have robots coming towards you. the blue ones can only be defeated by hadoukens. green ones by hurricane kicks.

you can get up on a platform with DP motion. etc. make em interactive rather than just a dummy soaking hits.

I've been playing with stuff like this in my head while thinking of how Smash 64/Melee did things like character specific Break The Targets/Board The Platforms minigames.
 
imagine a training mode where you have to do sort of platform or sidescrolling beat-em-ups accomplishments.

you have robots coming towards you. the blue ones can only be defeated by hadoukens. green ones by hurricane kicks.

you can get up on a platform with DP motion. etc. make em interactive rather than just a dummy soaking hits.

I would think that would help.
 
gooteckspls.jpg


the face my dude makes in these episodes tho
 
To be fair, I think Xrd and KI go as far as they can go for people who are actually interested in learning the ins and outs of the mechanics of their game. The amount of people that don't really care about that are still, from my experience, a much bigger crowd.

Exactly. Which is why I see people clamoring about fighting games needing more resources allocated towards robust tutorials being out of their minds. You have to motivate people enough to see the value in going beyond the surface, primarily. Tutorials only educate the choir.
 
Exactly. Which is why I see people clamoring about fighting games needing more resources allocated towards robust tutorials being out of their minds. You have to motivate people enough to see the value in going beyond the surface, primarily. Tutorials only educate the choir.

And that is why I say they are bad at teaching people. The layman does not want to sit through a tutorial.
 
Exactly. Which is why I see people clamoring about fighting games needing more resources allocated towards robust tutorials being out of their minds. You have to motivate people enough to see the value in going beyond the surface, primarily. Tutorials only educate the choir.

This totally this.

Solutions?
L2P = Sweet hat?
Get Gud = custom taunt?
 
I do think straight info dumps are pretty bad (the only people who have time for that are the people who need it the least), and I think if it's something a fighting game developer wants to attempt more seriously, they would need to look at how more traditional games handle issues with regards to emergent learning and ensuring knowledge and mastery of specific mechanics.

However, I don't think there's any harm in putting in more tools (like more fleshed out training and replay/broadcast modes) that help players get better -- they can do a lot a good for the dedicated playerbase, and help both the average level of play go up and push the highest levels of play.
 
I've been playing with stuff like this in my head while thinking of how Smash 64/Melee did things like character specific Break The Targets/Board The Platforms minigames.

yeah the n64/melee break the targets were an EXCELLENT learning tool.

even if you failed, you were being slowly ingrained into you things like timing of moves, spacing, move range and air movement.

comboes are nice for advanced skills, but this set a good basis.
 
yeah the n64/melee break the targets were an EXCELLENT learning tool.

even if you failed, you were being slowly ingrained into you things like timing of moves, spacing, move range and air movement.

comboes are nice for advanced skills, but this set a good basis.

And Home Run Contest teaches you about how the percentage system effects knockback. Which leads to how different moves can be used for comboing or for killing.
 
I do think straight info dumps are pretty bad (the only people who have time for that are the people who need it the least), and I think if it's something a fighting game developer wants to attempt more seriously, they would need to look at how more traditional games handle issues with regards to emergent learning and ensuring knowledge and mastery of specific mechanics.

However, I don't think there's any harm in putting in more tools (like more fleshed out training and replay/broadcast modes) that help players get better -- they can do a lot a good for the dedicated playerbase, and help both the average level of play go up and push the highest levels of play.

Straight info dumps only help people with the vocabulary of the game. Anybody else would balk at it. However I don't think any fighting game developer has the chops to get down a system like that.
 
Intuitive learning for mechanics is extremely hard to do right and you have to know for sure that what you're planning to teach is important. That is pretty difficult when at the end of the day, the community often is the stronger determinant of what techniques are important. Complexity for FGs builds out in an organic fashion, despite the systems themselves being deterministic.

Look at SF3 for example. Did Sean's basketball parry game do anything for you as a player? Did you feel you were better at swatting down projectiles after doing it several times? Did you feel how fun it was(or wasn't) influenced your opinion of parries? I think it's close to a best-case example of how this stuff can work, because doing a parry is simple and the parry mechanic is vital to the game. But if you make the goal just a little more complex, like 'when and when not to parry', it becomes really difficult to represent this through a minigame without it becoming a tutorial.

Can you think of a system that teaches players how to do stuff like OSes or special input shortcuts without the the player having to sit down and think about what they're doing? There's a razor thin line that exposes the entire thing as superficial('a tutorial') when crossed.

I do think it's possible to tie carrots/incentives to learning like some people have mentioned, but making meaningful/meta-learning intuitive is one of those problems that is bigger than the game itself, kinda like making a worthwhile enemy AI.
 
Intuitive learning for mechanics is extremely hard to do right and you have to know for sure that what you're planning to teach is important. That is pretty difficult when at the end of the day, the community often is the stronger determinant of what techniques are important. Complexity for FGs builds out in an organic fashion, despite the systems themselves being deterministic.

Look at SF3 for example. Did Sean's basketball parry game do anything for you as a player? Did you feel you were better at swatting down projectiles after doing it several times? Did you feel how fun it was(or wasn't) influenced your opinion of parries? I think it's close to a best-case example of how this stuff can work, because doing a parry is simple and the parry mechanic is vital to the game. But if you make the goal just a little more complex, like 'when and when not to parry', it becomes really difficult to represent this through a minigame without it becoming a tutorial.

Can you think of a system that teaches players how to do stuff like OSes or special input shortcuts without the the player having to sit down and think about what they're doing? There's a razor thin line that exposes the entire thing as superficial('a tutorial') when crossed.

I do think it's possible to tie carrots/incentives to learning like some people have mentioned, but making meaningful/meta-learning intuitive is one of those problems that is bigger than the game itself, kinda like making a worthwhile enemy AI.

i learned how to parry from being pissed off at always getting hit by the basketballs. i never thought to look up the internet for answers back then, so in my case it was a big motivation to learn parrying.


that and being a Q player meant i had to be decent at parrying or i ate a lot of hits.
 
Doesn't work. You need access to the internet when the game starts up, then you can't quit out of the game (say by turning the system off) or the hot fixes go away.

They're not real patches so they don't stay on the console. I also think that getting the hot fixes might even require an xbox live account (which neither of the systems at my station had at Evo). I don't think it's the same situation as SFxT in 2013.

It's the preparation ahead of time that I'm comparing the two on. Injustice is more complicated, definitely but It's not a surprise that the one that needs a little more effort caused a bigger problem when they couldn't even get the simple patch done ahead of time.
 
Straight info dumps only help people with the vocabulary of the game. Anybody else would balk at it. However I don't think any fighting game developer has the chops to get down a system like that.

Straight info dumps have their place- it's a great way for seasoned players of the game/genre to absorb information time-efficiently. Better traditional tutorials = level of play amongst dedicated players rises; easier for already motivated people to learn; easier for people who know fighting games to learn that new specific game (existing veteran players can play more games competently so cross over between games increases and individual games' scenes can grow even w/o an increase in FGC size).

Info dump is of course useless for people who don't already care. For them, devs need to make learning something that incidentally happens and the community needs to produce content that motivates more than informs (see Max's stuff, funny streamers like Aquasilk, entertaining commentators like Yipes, etc.).
 
Any FGC-Gaf from Baton Rouge?

Sup.

Straight info dumps have their place- it's a great way for seasoned players of the game/genre to absorb information time-efficiently. Better traditional tutorials = level of play amongst dedicated players rises; easier for already motivated people to learn; easier for people who know fighting games to learn that new specific game (existing veteran players can play more games competently so cross over between games increases and individual games' scenes can grow even w/o an increase in FGC size).

Info dump is of course useless for people who don't already care. For them, devs need to make learning something that incidentally happens and the community needs to produce content that motivates more than informs (see Max's stuff, funny streamers like Aquasilk, entertaining commentators like Yipes, etc.).

Agree with this more or less.
 
Straight info dumps have their place- it's a great way for seasoned players of the game/genre to absorb information time-efficiently. Better traditional tutorials = level of play amongst dedicated players rises; easier for already motivated people to learn; easier for people who know fighting games to learn that new specific game (existing veteran players can play more games competently so cross over between games increases and individual games' scenes can grow even w/o an increase in FGC size).

Info dump is of course useless for people who don't already care. For them, devs need to make learning something that incidentally happens and the community needs to produce content that motivates more than informs (see Max's stuff, funny streamers like Aquasilk, entertaining commentators like Yipes, etc.).

Exactly so. I just fear the right people for that are not quite there yet. So you will have to deal with the sub par play until something addresses it. But you should not be surprised that you will run into people who don't have the skill level that you'd like. It's the design of the game working quite well.
 
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