...okay then
I also like how people try to handwave away the Plinkett videos like they are simply overly nictpicky fanboy videos and don't pretty clearly show basic movie making issues with the prequels.
Star Wars Episode I: is it that bad!?
- Thread starter Christopher
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...okay then
I also like how people try to handwave away the Plinkett videos like they are simply overly nictpicky fanboy videos and don't pretty clearly show basic movie making issues with the prequels.
SteveWinwood
Member
the original debate in this thread was episode 1 was bad
he is right that there is a lot going on which reinforces that point
there is no point to half the shit in half the movie
episode 4 shots tell you things without saying anything its objectively better in the art of cinematography
episode 1 shots say nothing other than we had too big of a cg budget
episode 1 is bad for lots of reasons one of them being pointless shit everywhere from story to robots in backgrounds because they could
Just as a like how haters try to paint them as some god-sent videos that will definitely change your mind. Most if not all the people who watched the Plinkett reviews and got out angry at the prequels, are people who hated them from the very beginning anyway. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Hero_of_the_Day
Member
As much as I can't wrap my own brain around you finding the prequels "great", it's your opinion and obviously perfectly valid. I'd fucking hope no review would get you to change your own opinion.
brandonh83
Banned
I meant the original debate between us was that I defended what he was saying about the shots being dense. You tried to argue that by saying that there was nothing meaningful, and that's definitely a more arguable stance, but that has nothing to do with the actual quote that is frequently brought up as some kind of negative toward the movies.
Just as a like how haters try to paint them as some god-sent videos that will definitely change your mind. Most if not all the people who watched the Plinkett reviews and got out angry at the prequels, are people who hated them from the very beginning anyway. ¯\_(ツ
"Haters"
"Hated them from the very beginning"
I actually liked the prequels when I originally watched them (I was younger, obviously). Then one of my friends sent me a link to the first Plinkett review, I watched that, and watched Episode 1 again and immediately questioned why I even liked this movie. Shit, I know people who even still like the prequels who say that the Plinkett reviews are absolutely spot on. The reason people tend to point to the Plinkett reviews a lot is simply because they hit on pretty much all of the core points fans had with the prequel trilogy.
OricWindstar
Member
I rewatched the Original Trilogy the last week and, having not seen them in a while, it really highlighted one of my main issue with the prequels: everything said about the past in the OT is just completely ignored in the prequel trilogy.
Obi-Wan doesn't recognize R2D2 or C3PO. Everything Obi-Wan says about Anakin is just wrong, even after the reveal of Vader being Luke's father happens and he can speak with Luke openly about everything. Leia remembers her mom, who she says died when she was very young...as in childbirth, if the prequel are to be believed. One of the biggest one that stuck out was Obi-Wan mentioned he took it upon himself to train Anakin in ROTJ, as if it was some major choice on his part, only to see he does so reluctantly after Qui-Gon does after he dies. Why the fuck was Qui-Gon even in the movie? It dilutes Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship and bond, and make Anakin's betrayal of Obi-Wan weaker when the foundry of the creation of their friendship stems from being guilt-tripped into training some kid. Maybe this would bother me less if I saw an actual friendship blossom in the next two movies, but all I got were a sentence in an elevator mentioning they had fun one time. The biggest failure of the prequels for me is showing any kind of true brotherhood between Anakin and Obi-Wan, which starts with Episode One's shitty start to the two's friendship.
Things like this are what bother me a lot. Lucas just didn't seem to watch the Original Trilogy before making these new movies, and it shows in how different the tones are. They didn't need to just be more of the same, but it didn't feel like the same universe at all, much less the one his characters seem to remember.
Sorry for the rant, but watching the OT so recently has really refueled by disliking of the Prequels. I don't hate George Lucas like some other fans, but I'm glad to see Star Wars in someone else's hands.
Obi-Wan doesn't recognize R2D2 or C3PO. Everything Obi-Wan says about Anakin is just wrong, even after the reveal of Vader being Luke's father happens and he can speak with Luke openly about everything. Leia remembers her mom, who she says died when she was very young...as in childbirth, if the prequel are to be believed. One of the biggest one that stuck out was Obi-Wan mentioned he took it upon himself to train Anakin in ROTJ, as if it was some major choice on his part, only to see he does so reluctantly after Qui-Gon does after he dies. Why the fuck was Qui-Gon even in the movie? It dilutes Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship and bond, and make Anakin's betrayal of Obi-Wan weaker when the foundry of the creation of their friendship stems from being guilt-tripped into training some kid. Maybe this would bother me less if I saw an actual friendship blossom in the next two movies, but all I got were a sentence in an elevator mentioning they had fun one time. The biggest failure of the prequels for me is showing any kind of true brotherhood between Anakin and Obi-Wan, which starts with Episode One's shitty start to the two's friendship.
Things like this are what bother me a lot. Lucas just didn't seem to watch the Original Trilogy before making these new movies, and it shows in how different the tones are. They didn't need to just be more of the same, but it didn't feel like the same universe at all, much less the one his characters seem to remember.
Sorry for the rant, but watching the OT so recently has really refueled by disliking of the Prequels. I don't hate George Lucas like some other fans, but I'm glad to see Star Wars in someone else's hands.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The problem w/ the Plinkett videos (if this can be called THEIR problem, because it really isn't) is how they're used, and who is using them.
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy - most of the criticism is a combination of basic film-school shit, and synthesized/repurposed analysis from about a hundred other film writers looking at that movie. Not to say that shit isn't valuable, though. Basic film school shit is definitely worth learning if you're looking to enjoy your films on a level beyond simply just having plot points proceeded through as efficiently and entertainingly as possible.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy - most of the criticism is a combination of basic film-school shit, and synthesized/repurposed analysis from about a hundred other film writers looking at that movie. Not to say that shit isn't valuable, though. Basic film school shit is definitely worth learning if you're looking to enjoy your films on a level beyond simply just having plot points proceeded through as efficiently and entertainingly as possible.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
LSauchelli
Member
I don't know why Lucas thought Jar-Jar would be a good idea. Other than that, it's not THAT bad.
brandonh83
Banned
The problem w/ the Plinkett videos (if this can be called THEIR problem, because it really isn't) is how they're used, and who is using them.
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
Post of the forever. Well said.
The problem w/ the Plinkett videos (if this can be called THEIR problem, because it really isn't) is how they're used, and who is using them.
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
Yeah, I'm not all for the Plinkett reviews being the trump card. But when it comes to expressing my dislikes with the prequels I tend to just point people over there because those videos hit on pretty much all of my issues and do a better job of explaining it.
And yeah, sometimes those reviews do get a little too long winded. The episode 3 one is actually longer than the real movie isn't it?
Because Episode 2's character development in my opinion feels extremely forced and inorganic, plus the dialogue in that movie is somehow worse than Episode 1's. Episode 2 also kind of rides off of imagery from Empire Strikes Back a little too much in my opinion. And subjectively I think Count Dooku is an incredibly shitty villain. Darth Maul, and his six spoken words, was a much better villain.
anotherVegan
Member
I wish Liam Neeson lived all the way through Episode 3. Along with Darth Maul.
One thing the new trilogy lacked was a concrete villain that was given a definitive arc to go through all of the movies. Darth Vader in the original trilogy easily outlcasses Darth Maul, General Greivous, and Count Dooku put together.
One thing the new trilogy lacked was a concrete villain that was given a definitive arc to go through all of the movies. Darth Vader in the original trilogy easily outlcasses Darth Maul, General Greivous, and Count Dooku put together.
Thank you.
I don't believe you. But anyways. =)
I think the reason why a lot of people point to the reviews is because they don't truly have an opinion themselves. A lot of them don't really know why they hate the prequels except for "Well, a lot of people hate them!", so whenever they are asked for opinions, they black out and just say "Have you watched the Plinkett reviews?".
The problem w/ the Plinkett videos (if this can be called THEIR problem, because it really isn't) is how they're used, and who is using them.
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy - most of the criticism is a combination of basic film-school shit, and synthesized/repurposed analysis from about a hundred other film writers looking at that movie. Not to say that shit isn't valuable, though. Basic film school shit is definitely worth learning if you're looking to enjoy your films on a level beyond simply just having plot points proceeded through as efficiently and entertainingly as possible.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
Fantastic post.
Action figures....action figures everywhere.
Young Indiana Jones Chronicles > Prequels. What happened Georgie
OricWindstar
Member
Agreed. I think a lot of people use them as a crutch to having an actual debate. I fucking love them, but have your own thoughts, people.The problem w/ the Plinkett videos (if this can be called THEIR problem, because it really isn't) is how they're used, and who is using them.
Usually they're slapped down as some sort of critical trump card by people who might not necessarily even understand all the criticisms contained within. They end up just basically being a conversational shortcut that works less as a ramp for conversations to jump off of, than a concrete wall for discussion to crash into.
I also find that type of usage does a disservice to why those videos were really shared as often as they were originally: the blend of comedy with film criticism. People tend to share them as if they're the be-all/end-all of analysis on Star Wars prequels, and I find that's giving those videos short-shrift, as their primary appeal is the way the analysis is blended with the comedy - most of the criticism is a combination of basic film-school shit, and synthesized/repurposed analysis from about a hundred other film writers looking at that movie. Not to say that shit isn't valuable, though. Basic film school shit is definitely worth learning if you're looking to enjoy your films on a level beyond simply just having plot points proceeded through as efficiently and entertainingly as possible.
Not to mention that slapping up a link to a series of film "reviews" that are longer than the films themselves isn't as helpful as it seems at the time
brandonh83
Banned
Palpatine.
The other villains you mentioned were nothing more than pawns. The whole point was that he was using the fuck out of everything he could use. He was still the main villain in the originals. "Darth Vader" was definitely more of a developed character than Maul or Grievous because... well, I mean, duh. I would say that Dooku was the more interesting of the sub-villains.
Sectorseven
Member
Bad script compounded by poor direction.
I'm sorry dude, but this is a "head in the sand" statement if I've ever seen one.
Perhaps. But also is "Have you watched the Plinkett reviews?".
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think so, yeah.
I remember legitimate anticipation in the film-geek community about that shit dropping. I know at least two people currently working in the enthusiast/entertainment press who actually bailed out of work to go home and watch them.
The shit, that George took yesterday, is better than the shit, that George took today.
I don't even get the point of this post.
Well, on top of being pretty good breakdowns of the issues with those movies they're also pretty entertaining watches in general. RLM's style of humor meshes with me pretty well. I wouldn't leave work to go watch them though.
Red Liquorice
Member
I agree with this. Maybe it's just because I've caught the first one so many times on TV but I think it's the best of the three - which isn't saying much. The second one is especially dull.
Stereogatari
Banned
The "Stuck on Tatooine" arc in Episode 1 is my 2nd favourite part of all 6 movies (best is Episode 6's "Stuck on Tatooine" arc). It was a neat little sidequest; ship needs parts, slaves need freedom, must win race to secure freedom.
Interfectum
Member
Episode I was a bad, cheesy movie.
Episode II was hot garbage.
Episode III was cringe-worthy fanfic written by a 12 year old.
Episode II was hot garbage.
Episode III was cringe-worthy fanfic written by a 12 year old.
He did fine. Not the worst part of the movie by FAR. Id blame the shitty dialogue, not him. Also agree he maybe should have been older. Caused a real disconnect with his portrayal in the next movie.
Idk, I watched the first, thought it was terrible and never watched any more. Haven't seen the original trilogy.
Really need to power through all 6 before the newer trilogy if it does get that much better later on, but man the first was terrible even coming from someone who hadn't seen the original trilogy so I had nothing to compare it to.
Really need to power through all 6 before the newer trilogy if it does get that much better later on, but man the first was terrible even coming from someone who hadn't seen the original trilogy so I had nothing to compare it to.
The Tatooine part of Episode 1 is probably my favorite part in that movie too mostly because we get to see some characters who have actual personality behind them and the pod-race. When things get back to Naboo everything returns to "wooden characters: the movie"
Here's an order you should watch to films, at least according to my brother: 4, 5, 2, 3, 6. EP1 doesn't add anything worthwhile to the thing.
The original trilogy is way better in many ways, once... if you watch it, you will know.
Romance between a teen queen and a slave boy was a really bad idea, imagine if Ep1 also had Ep2's love scenes....yikes
Agreed. I've said it before, but SLJackson and Portman are far worse in the prequels than Hayden is. The former two just do not care at all, whereas Hayden was trying despite the poor dialogue.
There's always been a story/rumor that after getting and reading the AOTC script a couple weeks before filming, Hayden confided to close friends and family that he was fucked.
Which only works if you had prior knowledge of the OT. This connects with one of my biggest peeves with the PT: Since Lucas believes that everyone on the planet had already seen the OT, he felt that he didn't have explain a lot of shit like the Force, the Jedi, the Sith, even Anakin and Obi-wan entire relationship is glossed because, hey, they talked about in the OT, no need for it here.
This is why I love Star Trek XI in comparison with the PT. Prior to it I had never seen an episode of the the original ST show and in genera; dislike the ST franchise. But Star Trek XI gave us not only much needed exposition but also gave us characters we could care about (I was more emotionally invested in the first ten minutes of the film where Kirk's dad dies then I was for all 3 prequel films). Star Trek XI, in contrast to the PT, wanted to be able to stand on its own, and not just be another part of a story they assumed people were familiar with...
Oh lol I was talking about young an akin. Hayden was trash, definitely the worst.
I actually agree with this. No actor could have made Anakin's lines in Episode 2 and 3 look good, nobody. Hayden's best acting happens when he isn't saying terrible Lucas dialogue.
Oh shit, haha, my bad. I got confused as I saw someone mention Hayden earlier. Too many SW threads!
BertramCooper
Banned
Lloyd wasn't the worst part of the movie, but he was undoubtedly bad. Lucas' dialogue is garbage, but the other kid who read for the part managed to add some gravitas to that stupid "Are you an angel?" monologue. It was pretty impressive.
Had that kid been cast, I think he would have given a much more subdued performance, which would have made Yoda's wariness of poor little Anakin a lot more convincing. Lloyd's Anakin was so goofy that it made it hard to buy that anyone could be frightened of him.
Liamario
Banned
I was 16 when I saw it. Didn't like it. Didn't hate it either, that came later. It's a boring, badly scripted movie as a standalone film. As a Star Wars movie it's terrible. Attack of the clones is a lot worse though, and Revenge of the Sith brought back some of the fun (though it was still poor).
The prequels are awful.
The prequels are awful.
Do we know which lines were ad-libbed in the prequels, if any were at all? If I recall correctly Harrison Ford challenged some of the stuff in the OT and for the better
Muffdraul
Member
Ep. 1 is my least favorite of the prequels, but I always manage to enjoy the good in it more than I detest the bad. I think a lot of people take Star Wars way more seriously than I do. The first one came out when I was 8 yrs old and I have no problem whatsoever reverting to that level of critical thinking whenever I watch them. I come for the spaceships, the robots, the aliens, the blasters, the lightsabers... and they always deliver. I've never been in it for the acting or whatever. Bad acting in Star Wars bounces right off me like bullets off Superman's chest.
OricWindstar
Member
I'm not a huge fan of Hayden or anything, but it always bothers me when people but the blame on him. Natalie Portman is a fantastic actress, but she's fucking garbage in those movies. Only person to overcome all of was Ewan McGregor; he's the one shining thing in the prequels for me, despite some of the stupid shit they have him do.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
One of the biggest problems of all the prequels is that in order for the story to really hit, the emotionality of the characters needs to be very much present. Almost everything that happens in the story is happening due to some sort of emotional reaction or another.
The problem is that he built a story around emotional reactions to situations, and then peopled his story with people who aren't allowed to express or even really FEEL emotions due to their line of work. Not just the Jedi, but the senators as well.
So not only is it a series of kids movies centered around subjects that are only really interesting to older people with a working knowledge of politics, it's a drama in which the characters have to purposefully mute all their emotions in service to the plot - a plot that is ASKING them to be more emotional in response to its events. This is why Portman & Jackson especially seem way off-key. Because they're actors whose best performances are ones in which you can visibly see what they're feeling, right out front. In this one, they're so buttoned up they're just looking at things and mouthing words, because to do any more would violate the rules Lucas had laid down.
This is why the dialog hurts like it does, and why the acting suffers as much as it does. You just end up with blank people acting blankly in situations that would be immensely improved if the characters weren't handcuffed by their artificial natures.
It then hurts Revenge of the Sith even more because now you're watching characters actually emoting in their extreme situations and it feels completely disconnected and unearned.
The problem is that he built a story around emotional reactions to situations, and then peopled his story with people who aren't allowed to express or even really FEEL emotions due to their line of work. Not just the Jedi, but the senators as well.
So not only is it a series of kids movies centered around subjects that are only really interesting to older people with a working knowledge of politics, it's a drama in which the characters have to purposefully mute all their emotions in service to the plot - a plot that is ASKING them to be more emotional in response to its events. This is why Portman & Jackson especially seem way off-key. Because they're actors whose best performances are ones in which you can visibly see what they're feeling, right out front. In this one, they're so buttoned up they're just looking at things and mouthing words, because to do any more would violate the rules Lucas had laid down.
This is why the dialog hurts like it does, and why the acting suffers as much as it does. You just end up with blank people acting blankly in situations that would be immensely improved if the characters weren't handcuffed by their artificial natures.
It then hurts Revenge of the Sith even more because now you're watching characters actually emoting in their extreme situations and it feels completely disconnected and unearned.
Apparently the entire breakfast scene where Anakin talks about "agressive negociations" with padme was ad-libbed. It always did stand out to me as the only natural sounding dialogue between the two.
Jake Lloyd was not the problem with Anakin. Perhaps other child actors could have given slightly better performances, but they wouldn't have saved the character or movie.
I never understood Lloyd getting so much flak. A child actor not giving a strong enough performance is 100% on the director, and I don't say that to shit on Lucas. It's true for any scenario. If the kid just isn't working, get a new one.
I feel terrible for the guy. He may not have been young Brando but I can't imagine what it was like for him after TPM. Just watch this interview and see what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtkM2JPcHPo
I never understood Lloyd getting so much flak. A child actor not giving a strong enough performance is 100% on the director, and I don't say that to shit on Lucas. It's true for any scenario. If the kid just isn't working, get a new one.
I feel terrible for the guy. He may not have been young Brando but I can't imagine what it was like for him after TPM. Just watch this interview and see what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtkM2JPcHPo
Qui-Gon Jinn clearly never had any strategic training whatsoever. When the red laser thingy separating him from Maul and Obi Wan disappeared he should have beat a tactical retreat by running back to regroup with Obi Wan instead of running forward to fight Maul one on one. What on earth was he thinking about sitting down for all that time if not what his next move ought to be? His odds of beating Maul were just objectively much worse one on one then with Obi Wan by his side. He makes the same mistake Anakin does in Episode II when he tries to fight Dooku alone. Considering a jedi is supposed to be trained as an ultimate peace keeping warrior it makes no sense Qui-Gon wouldn't fight with basic strategic principles in mind. Anakin can be excused because he's a padowan and because of his arrogance but Qui-Gon is portrayed as smart and level headed. That's just one of many internal inconsistencies in that movie
brandonh83
Banned
It's a six-part saga (soon to be more). Palpatine is the over-arching villain throughout. If you watch the prequels without any knowledge of the originals... he's still the villain throughout.
Delta Assault
Member
I've said it before, but it bears repeating... Chronicle did in one 90 minute indie film what Lucas couldn't accomplish in three films costing over 600 million dollars.
And yeah, Hayden was horrible, but let's face it... no actor in that position would've been able to salvage the material.
And yeah, Hayden was horrible, but let's face it... no actor in that position would've been able to salvage the material.
BertramCooper
Banned
I'm not arguing that Lloyd was the problem. I'm arguing that Lloyd was a problem.
But I don't truly blame Lloyd for anything. He was just clearly miscast and then fed shitty dialogue by a shitty writer and director. In the end it's all on Lucas.
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