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[BreezyLimbo]

I feel this is relevant to the thread, in relation to privilege in hand-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qavNOONOuRw
.
And it's in a game tone. So you can totally understand this if you don't understand why equality is important

 

[Colivar]

This is completely right.

It would also be cool if we could expand the work instead of blaming it for being shallow, incomplete, inaccurate, or dishonest.

I'm all for expanding the work. I agree that it is a relevant, important issue.

I stand by the comment that she can be dishonest though. 20 seconds on youtube and you can see the proof for yourself when she has at times completely twisted what was really happening in a game to try and make it fit her point. It's dishonest and the fact that she has done stuff like that calls into question all of her work imo. I don't want to have to double check her work every time she posts something about a game to see if she is shining light on a real issue, or just twisting something because she needed more filler for her blog.

 

[Gummb]

I feel this is relevant to the thread, in relation to privilege in hand-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qavNOONOuRw
.
And it's in a game tone. So you can totally understand this if you don't understand why equality is important

This is a cool video. I really liked how it explained its subject.

However, I would say that when we live in a society that does a lot to construct goals for individuals (education, job status, wealth, consumerism, residential location) and much of that depends on your "facticity," then there's a social problem at hand.

It's easy to say that there is no inherently more privileged individual, and I believe that theoretically that is correct. However, does that actually manifest itself in the minds of those who are poorly educated, have few job opportunities, have little money, can't live where they want, and cannot attain the dream they have or what society puts on them?

I'm not so sure that theory can hold up.

It's cool to think this way though.

 

[zeldablue]

Oh yeah, definitely. The little representation of genre and race beyond white male characters is problematic (especially in the videogame industry, as we well know), and I agree with the implications that this has. I agree that, partly because of this, many white males end up being quite unaware of what it is like to be something other than a white male. I think it's a disservice to everyone when we claim that people of any collective "just cannot understand", though. The implied invalidation of any opinion coming from said collective on any of these discussions is just the tip of the iceberg. When we say "you cannot understand", we're basically denying the human capacity for abstraction. This works against establishing the understanding and empathy that are very much needed in all of these matters.

Obviously many people fail at putting their own experiences aside for a minute in order to look at life from other people's lenses. Otherwise, we would not be having shitstorms every time these topics are brought up. But being at times hard doesn't make it impossible. It just means we must keep at it. Instead of giving up, saying "you/we can't understand" and leaving things at that, we should be looking for ways to help everyone understand better.

I agree. Saying someone doesn't understand doesn't really help anyone. It's just a common frustration. I'm pretty sure I've shown the same frustration before too. I think groups that are often dehumanized in the media tend to assume that everyone perceives them as their stereotype. It's bad to assume what others are assuming...because then there are several layers of assumptions happening. And when that happens communication suffers.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

This is a cool video. I really liked how it explained its subject.

However, I would say that when we live in a society that does a lot to construct goals for individuals (education, job status, wealth, consumerism, residential location) and much of that depends on your "facticity," then there's a social problem at hand.

It's easy to say that there is no inherently more privileged individual, and I believe that theoretically that is correct. However, does that actually manifest itself in the minds of those who are poorly educated, have few job opportunities, have little money, can't live where they want, and cannot attain the dream they have or what society puts on them?

I'm not so sure that theory can hold up.

It's cool to think this way though.

Yeah, that's why at the end of the video it also takes a jab at the philosophical point by saying 'But can we really trust a rich white man who said this?'(sic). But yeah it was a neat way of framing what privilege is in a way that isn't trying to force feed you it.

 

[Gummb]

I'm all for expanding the work. I agree that it is a relevant, important issue.

I stand by the comment that she can be dishonest though. 20 seconds on youtube and you can see the proof for yourself when she has at times completely twisted what was really happening in a game to try and make it fit her point. It's dishonest and the fact that she has done stuff like that calls into question all of her work imo. I don't want to have to double check her work every time she posts something about a game to see if she is shining light on a real issue, or just twisting something because she needed more filler for her blog.

Well, I've seen most of her videos and i'm unaware of what she's done to twist game material to meet her ends.

Can you inform me?

 

[Colivar]

Well, I've seen most of her videos and i'm unaware of what she's done to twist game material to meet her ends.

Can you inform me?

I grabbed this video literally just from typing her name into youtube lol. It actually touches on the hitman review she had given that made me roll my eyes. I'm not going to go grab every video out there which points out examples of dishonesty, but if you really want to see more it isn't hard to find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRSaLZidWI

Edit: The point is that this IS a important subject and it deserves people who want to champion it with 100% honesty and integrity. Anything less just makes the whole thing go to shit because people will start focusing on the character (or lack there of) of the person presenting this stuff and not the material itself.

 

[zeldablue]

I feel this is relevant to the thread, in relation to privilege in hand-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qavNOONOuRw
.
And it's in a game tone. So you can totally understand this if you don't understand why equality is important

This is all true. Happiness is measured by how well you think you match up to what you want in life. That's why poor people can be happy/enriched and the rich can be sad/deprived. That's all a matter of where you're gauging yourself.

However...the human species, like most social creatures, are extremely interdependent. We all lack quite a bit of agency. And most of our choices and actions in life will very likely be influenced by what others may think or expect of you. Those social expectations put people into boxes. The boxes placed on men do not allow for a full range of emotions or weakness, and the boxes placed on women do not allow for a full range of opportunity or respect. People, in general, are forced to act in the way they feel they are expected to act. The reason we're so easily influenced is because we are all dependent to society. We avoid shame and isolation and we are drawn to places that reward us. This is why conformity is such a huge thing.

Heck...math and science were my best subjects in school. I loved video games. I went to a tech school. But decided not to go into game design or computer science because I honestly believed that women weren't suppose to study technology. Just following basic sociology, it becomes obvious that what guides us in life is heavily influenced by what is expected of us. By the time we realize that we have more free will than we thought...it's usually a bit too late.

 

[stump sock]

I grabbed this video literally just from typing her name into youtube lol. It actually touches on the hitman review she had given that made me roll my eyes. I'm not going to go grab every video out there which points out examples of dishonesty, but if you really want to see more it isn't hard to find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRSaLZidWI

oh my god I FUCKING KNEW it was a thundertwat video before even clicking it

 

[Toxi]

oh my god I FUCKING KNEW it was a thundertwat video before even clicking it

We must both have psychic powers.

 

[Colivar]

oh my god I FUCKING KNEW it was a thundertwat video before even clicking it

The point he makes is a valid one. Even if he sounds like a tool while doing it.

 

[Toxi]

The point he makes is a valid one. Even if he sounds like a tool while doing it.

Forgive me if I don't want to watch something made by the same tinfoil-hatted asshole who made a video speculating that Anita Sarkeesian faked death threats against herself.

 

[foltzie1]

The point he makes is a valid one. Even if he sounds like a tool while doing it.

No he doesn't, no you don't, and no it doesn't.

But again thanks for playing.

 

[zeldablue]

The point he makes is a valid one. Even if he sounds like a tool while doing it.

Hmm...

I'm pretty sure those women were still background decoration. So it doesn't exactly break her hypothesis that women are often used to decorate a game to give it a cool, edgy texture.

I think it's hilarious that she got footage of the dude dragging knocked out strippers though. It's just showing all the different interactions you can have with the sex'd up NPCs. Unfortunately, all of the interactions are related to violence. This is just a shortcoming that a lot of action games suffer from. There is very little you can really do with an NPC if it's not related to violence. :\

 

[hotnheavyload]

I'm at a point now where I am through with any people whining about Sarkeesian. Her stuff is so bare-bones, so milquetoast, so 101, yet some people are still throwing a hissy-fit because they can't deal with a woman even questioning the status quo in the most mild and non-controversial manner. Because of their video games.

It's embarassing to watch people fall over each other to make misogynist fools out of themselves with almost no self-awareness and complete lack of empathy.

This is more a general comment on the reactions towards her, some of which are in this thread (and countless other instances).

I fail to see how critiquing the critic automatically makes one a misogynist.

 

[Flame Lord]

No he doesn't, no you don't, and no it doesn't.

But again thanks for playing.

The guy asked for an example of her twisting something in a game to fit her narrative, and he did. I don't see why it should be invalid just because you don't like the person it came from.

 

[Box of Kittens]

I fail to see how critiquing the critic automatically makes one a misogynist.

Has anybody actually said anything remotely like that?

 

[hotnheavyload]

Has anybody actually said anything remotely like that?

There's the implication in the post I quoted.

Healthy debate is good and should be encouraged from all sides of the fence.

 

[Toxi]

The guy asked for an example of her twisting something in a game to fit her narrative, and he did. I don't see why it should be invalid just because you don't like the person it came from.

This is a person who spends most of his free time trying to attack Anita on social media. He's not exactly the most trustworthy source.

There are other people who presumably made videos criticizing Anita's videos; I think most would be more willing to watch those.

 

[silvermember]

Forgive me if I don't want to watch something made by the same tinfoil-hatted asshole who made a video speculating that Anita Sarkeesian faked death threats against herself.

That's ad hominen, just because he has an agenda against Anita doesn't make his points wrong. Maybe she was faking it for attention. I see this nothing more than a conspiracy by the liberal media and peta.

 

[CambriaRising]

The guy asked for an example of her twisting something in a game to fit her narrative, and he did. I don't see why it should be invalid just because you don't like the person it came from.

Except that she didn't in the example stated. Thundershoes misrepresented it. (Imagine that)

 

[More_Badass]

The guy asked for an example of her twisting something in a game to fit her narrative, and he did. I don't see why it should be invalid just because you don't like the person it came from.

When the video is from someone who has made video after video attacking her for asinine reasons and has videos literally titled "How feminism poisons everything" and "Feminism vs Islam"...you know, twisting things to fit his narrative about Anita, I'd say that person's opinions are very hard to take seriously or entertain for even a moment.

 

[Nanashrew]

Thunderf00t really has nothing of value to offer in a debate because he doesn't understand anything he's arguing when discussing anything that Anita has made. He spends much of his time attacking her than arguing any of her points.

 

[Gummb]

I grabbed this video literally just from typing her name into youtube lol. It actually touches on the hitman review she had given that made me roll my eyes. I'm not going to go grab every video out there which points out examples of dishonesty, but if you really want to see more it isn't hard to find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRSaLZidWI

Edit: The point is that this IS a important subject and it deserves people who want to champion it with 100% honesty and integrity. Anything less just makes the whole thing go to shit because people will start focusing on the character (or lack there of) of the person presenting this stuff and not the material itself.

Uhh... I'm not sure where the video proves that she is lying.

1. The Watch Dog Example - The video argues that the main character is trying to shut down a sex trafficking ring and thus there is no objectification of women.

This is incredibly problematic. First, Anita is right - it shows that the women on screen are merely decoration in the scene for the gamer to view and further their own narrative. The women have no agency of their own as demonstrated. Second, what could be worse is that the women require the main character to save them from their current situation. This depiction of women in sex trafficking is incredibly problematic because it reproduces the idea of isolation and helplessness AND that women are in need of men to save them.

2. The Hitman Example - The video argues that the players are discouraged from killing random individuals because they are penalized, thus there is no offense.

I can see how people think that this is a perversion of the game-maker's intent, but I disagree with that. The women are clearly placed in an interactive game world as background decoration. It fits entirely within Anita's structure. Beyond their presence in the game as objects, what is their other purpose in the game? Do you know? Because obviously they are mere objects that, yes, can be ignored, and yes, you are penalized for killing them, but they are there, represented as helpless objects, and the player has the ability to act upon them in any way they choose. There is no lie in what Anita presents.

This is about tropes in video games, and the representation of women throughout the industry. Choosing examples and portraying them is going to occur and at no point does she lie about it.

-----
I'm open to disagreement, but this video does not impress.

 

[Opto]

The hate that has been thrown her way is absolutely ridiculous. It's easier to roll your eyes when she makes a stupid point then it is to send her threats, but the internet is full of crazies. Part of me feels that if you intentionally put yourself into the public eye and on a controversial topic then you need to prepare yourself for what comes next.

One of the biggest reasons I don't live my life online making videos, and blogs. Only a matter of time until you piss off the wrong person.

"She had it coming" in other words. Good post.

 

[Toxi]

That's ad hominen, just because he has an agenda against Anita doesn't make his points wrong. Maybe she was faking it for attention. I see this nothing more than a conspiracy by the liberal media and peta.

Wait, what?

 

[stump sock]

That's ad hominen, just because he has an agenda against Anita doesn't make his points wrong. Maybe she was faking it for attention. I see this nothing more than a conspiracy by the liberal media and peta.

please tell me this is very dry sarcasm

 

[silvermember]

Wait, what?

please tell me this is very dry sarcasm

I tried to make it as obvious as possible, I was making a funny.

I mean seriously PETA.

 

[besada]

Poe's Law check on aisle nine.

 

[Kariodude]

I like the plans for the future. It's a step in the right direction that she badly needs, although it probably won't change the opinions that most people have already formed.

Salary & Wages? Might as well just say "Anita's Pocket"

 

[stump sock]

I tried to make it as obvious as possible, I was making a funny.

I mean seriously PETA.

I've spent enough time reading dumbshit GG/Anita conspiracy theorist quotes that nothing would surprise me at this point.

 

[Flame Lord]

Except that she didn't in the example stated. Thundershoes misrepresented it. (Imagine that)

I don't see how she didn't. She talks about treating them as things and that players are meant to get a perverse pleasure for killing them, but you aren't even supposed to kill them, and get punished if you do. So in that case I don't see how she didn't somewhat stretch the truth.

 

[hotnheavyload]

I tried to make it as obvious as possible, I was making a funny.

I mean seriously PETA.

Haha, thank you for lightening the tone.

 

[Opto]

By the by, I recently played GTA V to see if the "Kill the hooker, get your money back" thing was still true.

You don't get ALL of your money back but you get most of it back. Average NPC in the game has 10-20 dollars on them. And yes, I killed sex workers before paying them to make sure they didn't have substantially higher on-body cash.

It was a fucking uncomfortable experiment

 

[sasliquid]

(Comes into thread)

Oh I see we're discussing how vile thunderfoot is. (Looks at watch) what time is the the TotalBiscuit discussion?

Srsly One of the many reasons I can't take Gamergate seriously is that most of their advocates are just plain bad human beings.


More on topic i watched a thunderfoot video about anita once. The first five minutes were about how video games don't cause violence so obviously they can't cause misogyny cos they are totally equatable. Can't take him seriously.

 

[Toxi]

I tried to make it as obvious as possible, I was making a funny.

I mean seriously PETA.

LOL, the PETA part is what actually threw me for a loop.

 

[silvermember]

TotalBiscuit and Thunderfoot, it is always funny watching people worship guys like those just because they have a youtube channel.

Poe's Law check on aisle nine.

Are you implying I should quit my day job and become a comedian that specializes in sarcasm?

I've spent enough time reading dumbshit GG/Anita conspiracy theorist quotes that nothing would surprise me at this point.

I feel like the peta aspect should have been so ridiculous you had to believe it was a joke, but I can see why you wouldn't in hindsight. This is the internet, they are people who could say that with a straight face.

 

[Gummb]

I don't see how she didn't. She talks about treating them as things and that players are meant to get a perverse pleasure for killing them, but you aren't even supposed to kill them, and get punished if you do. So in that case I don't see how she didn't somewhat stretch the truth.

It's in the context of body manipulation - moving the women into whatever form or shape desired. It's an act of direct control over another's body. The control over the woman's meagerly clothed body is the act of pleasure.

Whether or not the gamer has pleasure in this is up for debate for the individual playing. However, I think Anita's point that the women act as background decoration and are objects for the player to control is not lost.

In all, this level of scrutiny is not helpful for the conversation of representations of women in games. Anita is making succinct points and backing those points up with examples in games.

 

[zeldablue]

It's in the context of body manipulation - moving the women into whatever form or shape desired. It's an act of direct control over another's body. The control over the woman's meagerly clothed body is the act of pleasure.

Whether or not the gamer has pleasure in this is up for debate for the individual playing. However, I think Anita's point that the women act as background decoration and are objects for the player to control is not lost.

In all, this level of scrutiny is not helpful for the conversation of representations of women in games. Anita is making succinct points and backing those points up with examples in games.

I honestly thought she just used that footage to juxtapose what she was saying. It didn't seem like she was talking directly about Hitman. I think she was just talking about how women with no clothes on are there to either look at or screw around with. There's not much in between.

Assuming what the player is feeling is pretty odd, but to me it seemed as though she was saying that the designers were exploiting the player's desire to have full control over female "play-things." I agree with this. I think games try to exploit people in stupid ways.

*shrugs*

 

[jim-jam bongs]

For the most part I think Anita's only value comes from the debates that get caused around her videos/blogs. I think her work itself is shallow, often dishonest and that she falls into that same bad habit a lot of activists tend to fall into. They start jumping at shadows and see discrimination in everything. They become easily offended, and easily outraged by even the most innocent of shit because they can't get out of their own head. Because of that I don't respect her opinions of pretty much anything, but at the same time I'm grateful someone gets that ball rolling because it gets people with perhaps better heads on their shoulders talking.

*cautious nod*

The hate that has been thrown her way is absolutely ridiculous. It's easier to roll your eyes when she makes a stupid point then it is to send her threats, but the internet is full of crazies. Part of me feels that if you intentionally put yourself into the public eye and on a controversial topic then you need to prepare yourself for what comes next.

One of the biggest reasons I don't live my life online making videos, and blogs. Only a matter of time until you piss off the wrong person.

*confused pause*

I'm all for expanding the work. I agree that it is a relevant, important issue.

I stand by the comment that she can be dishonest though. 20 seconds on youtube and you can see the proof for yourself when she has at times completely twisted what was really happening in a game to try and make it fit her point. It's dishonest and the fact that she has done stuff like that calls into question all of her work imo. I don't want to have to double check her work every time she posts something about a game to see if she is shining light on a real issue, or just twisting something because she needed more filler for her blog.

*slowly shaking head*

I grabbed this video literally just from typing her name into youtube lol. It actually touches on the hitman review she had given that made me roll my eyes. I'm not going to go grab every video out there which points out examples of dishonesty, but if you really want to see more it isn't hard to find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRSaLZidWI

Edit: The point is that this IS a important subject and it deserves people who want to champion it with 100% honesty and integrity. Anything less just makes the whole thing go to shit because people will start focusing on the character (or lack there of) of the person presenting this stuff and not the material itself.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I like the plans for the future. It's a step in the right direction that she badly needs, although it probably won't change the opinions that most people have already formed.

Salary & Wages? Might as well just say "Anita's Pocket"

Contrary to popular belief, people that take the time to work for themselves still need to get paid.

 

[Gummb]

I honestly thought she just used that footage to juxtapose what she was saying. It didn't seem like she was talking directly about Hitman. I think she was just talking about how women with no clothes on are there to either look at or screw around with. There's not much in between.

Assuming what the player is feeling is pretty odd, but to me it seemed as though she was saying that the designers were exploiting the player's desire to have full control over female "play-things." I agree with this. I think games try to exploit people in stupid ways.

*shrugs*

I mean, that's fair. I'd have to go back and look at Anita's full video, because the video critiquing Anita takes a lot out of context. :\

 

[MrBadger]

The point he makes is a valid one. Even if he sounds like a tool while doing it.

His point that you're not meant to kill the dancers and that Anita misrepresented that one situation is valid. However, they're still in the game as background decoration so (assuming that is the video this is from) I don't think this invalidates what Anita is trying to say over all. It feels like he's focusing more on the tree than the forest.

 

[mugwhump]

• Begin a miniseries presenting examples of positive female characters in video
games

this sounds good

I think a lot of good would be done in videogames if people stopped giving attention to the things they hate and focused more on the things they like.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

this sounds good

I think a lot of good would be done in videogames if people stopped giving attention to the things they hate and focused more on the things they like.

Sure, if you like nothing changing. No progress.

 

[Box of Kittens]

There's the implication in the post I quoted.

Healthy debate is good and should be encouraged from all sides of the fence.

I read it differently, but I guess it comes down to how one interprets what the post meant by "whining." I took it to be referring to people who focus on a personal, dare I say visceral, dislike of Sarkeesian and latch onto the oddest things, like disabling Youtube comments, instead of focusing on the substance of her arguments. I can see how one could interpret it to be implying that all criticism of her is automatically whining even if that's not how I interpreted it.

I certainly agree that healthy debate is a good thing. I just find that so much of the debate about Tropes vs. Women is far from healthy.

 

[Sarakin]

Sure, if you like nothing changing. No progress.

Telling developers "hey this is good, do more stuff like this!" isn't necessarily going to change nothing.

We absolutely need both. Examples of things we need more of as well as the examples of negative things that are too pervasive.

If i tell you to stop heading north, but don't tell you that east and west are both pretty cool, but that south is a bad idea, you might accidentally head south and get eaten by a grue or something.

 

[laser]

Telling developers "hey this is good, do more stuff like this!" isn't necessarily going to change nothing.

We absolutely need both. Examples of things we need more of as well as the examples of negative things that are too pervasive.

If i tell you to stop heading north, but don't tell you that east and west are both pretty cool, but that south is a bad idea, you might accidentally head south and get eaten by a grue or something.

It's a good thing her last video in the series will be good representations of women in videos games then.

 

[MrBadger]

I read it differently, but I guess it comes down to how one interprets what the post meant by "whining." I took it to be referring to people who focus on a personal, dare I say visceral, dislike of Sarkeesian and latch onto the oddest things, like disabling Youtube comments, instead of focusing on the substance of her arguments. I can see how one could interpret it to be implying that all criticism of her is automatically whining even if that's not how I interpreted it.

I certainly agree that healthy debate is a good thing. I just find that so much of the debate about Tropes vs. Women is far from healthy.

Disabling Youtube comments really is the oddest thing one can latch onto as a criticism against her. Anybody who seriously wants to discuss these videos would do it on a forum like this one or Reddit anyway, and Youtube comments have little to no value because they're unmoderated, badly formatted for discussion and just tend to be used by trolls.

 

[Toxi]

this sounds good

I think a lot of good would be done in videogames if people stopped giving attention to the things they hate and focused more on the things they like.

As consumers, we need to be critical. Whether it's terrible writing, buggy unfinished games, or the color orange, nothing will change unless people actually bring attention to how they want to change it.

That doesn't mean we should ignore what's good; good stuff should be used as an example to aspire to. We just need to not ignore the things that suck about video games, because they suck and we'd rather play games without them.