Why is relegation/promotion not used in American sports?

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ICKE

Banned
I was just wondering why promotion and relegation are not used in American professional sports. Take any European country, England for example. There are thousands of football clubs in different divisions all the way up to the Premier League where the best clubs play against one another. Every season the worst 3-4 teams are relegated to a lower division and have to earn their way back.

The final day is usually utter madness when you have a bunch of teams fighting for survival and others in lower divisions going for that promotion place. There are Cup competitions in every country where the top teams are seeded but always have to play against lower division teams. Sometimes a small town team might pull off a surprise and beat a big name like Manchester United. It makes the competition more exciting.

The possibility of relegation also keeps teams from giving up, because dropping down to a lower division can destroy clubs financially. It forces owners to adapt constantly. In American leagues teams can just completely tank if they don't have a chance to reach the play-offs.

Are there any reasons not to have these systems in place other than to protect certain financial interests (owners of big teams and their sponsors?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziGlhLN2IF4

Here is Birmingham celebrating that they managed to avoid relegation. It just makes the season so exciting as every team is desperately trying to fight for positions, be it access to international competition, the title or to just survive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMV9peH8EZ8

Burnley fans celebrating promotion.

England :

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Dennis

Banned
Money.

The teams would sue because of all the money they would lose by relegation.

Sports in America exists to make money.
 
Because it punishes the fans for shit they have no control over. Also, no public money would ever go into a stadium that wasn't 100 percent assured to have a major league team in it. It's just too big money to risk it on relegation.
 

Esch

Banned
because the concept of the league table is irrelevant/nonexistent in american sports

the only thing that matters is the playoffs, the 'regular season' in american sports matters for naught but playoff qualification
 

entremet

Member
America embraces Sports socialism--salary caps, revenue sharing, luxury taxes, public funding of stadiums.

Europe embraces Sports capitalism--no salary caps, no revenue sharing?
 

ICKE

Banned
America embraces Sports socialism--salary caps, revenue sharing, luxury taxes.

Europe embraces Sports capitalism--no salary caps, no revenue sharing?

That is not entirely correct. The leagues distribute TV money between different clubs, that is one reason why promotion to highest division can mean a 30+ million euro budget increase in England.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Well, there's also the fact that the NFL and the NBA don't really have a farm system and draw directly from colleges for their new talent.
 

entremet

Member
That is not entirely correct. The leagues distribute TV money between different clubs, that is one reason why promotion to highest division can mean a 30+ million euro budget increase in England.

Yeah. I wasn't sure about revenue sharing.
 

Opiate

Member
Money.

The teams would sue because of all the money they would lose by relegation.

Sports in America exists to make money.

Why do you think they exist in England? For the good of the people? Do you think Glazer ran Manchester United for charity?
 

markot

Banned
Multi purpose stadiums serve a public utility and as such it could be argued are worth public funding.

But if its just for one sport for one team its kind of silly.

The good thing about England and their relegation, is that the fans are realllllllllllllly loyal. (Way too loyal really)
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
isn't that what the NBA D-League is?
I guess theoretically, but I imagine the assumption is that if you are a #1 pick, you are NBA-ready.

The other thing that happens is that the majority of farm teams in the MLB and NHL are owned by the major league team, so there's also no incentive to relegate.

The league system is just completely different in a North American context and a European context.

Multi purpose stadiums serve a public utility and as such it could be argued are worth public funding.

But if its just for one sport for one team its kind of silly.
It never ends up being the case though, as many cities have learned the hard way.
 

ICKE

Banned
The stadiums would not be useless if the team was playing in second highest division though.

People would still support their home team. The matches wouldn't be sold out but that's why you need to invest in the team and earn your place to bring in the big bucks.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
The only sport this could possibly work in America is baseball. I think it would be interesting. Even then you'd have to completely alter the relationships between the big league and the minor leagues and some more stadiums would need to be built when promotion did happen.
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
so sometimes the top teams have a post-season... some times they don't?

i'm not sure how playoffs are disputed in America, but here it's quite simple: teams with the same rank play a third and final match for championship, qualification for the Champions League or others, or relegation
 

Kusagari

Member
The stadiums would not be useless if the team was playing in second highest division though.

People would still support their home team. The matches wouldn't be sold out but that's why you need to invest in the team and earn your place to bring in the big bucks.

No owner on the planet would agree to it. The owners run everything in American sports and this would just cause them to make less money.
 
Why do you think they exist in England? For the good of the people? Do you think Glazer ran Manchester United for charity?

The vast majority of football clubs in England are local things which make very little money. Do you think Barrow Town F.C. does it primarily because football is a smart monetary investment?
 

jwhit28

Member
Our pro sports didn't grow from clubs. Our sports were a natural extension of high school and collegiate sports. College has a lot of conference and divisional movement though no true system for it. Think of it more as the old pro wrestling territory system. The pro teams protected each other and shared stars to survive the rough patches and keep the league as a whole alive. Hell before Magic and Bird some NBA Finals couldn't even get live broadcast on TV.
 

Jacob

Member
i'm not sure how playoffs are disputed in America, but here it's quite simple: teams with the same rank play a third and final match for championship, qualification for the Champions League or others, or relegation

Playoffs in North American sports are a whole tournament -- like the FA Cup -- in order to crown the league's yearly champion. Finishing with the best record is pretty much irrelevant aside from giving you favorable seeding in the playoffs. Like someone said, the entire system is set up differently than the British/European model.
 
The idea of minor league teams needing to have major league-sized stadiums is obviously financially pretty much impossible in major American sports such as baseball. See, we think that all of the teams in each league should all theoretically actually have a chance, instead of having some super-good teams and then some that are effectively AAA teams in the "major league" but with no chance to actually win before they get dumped down to the next tier again... that's a quite unfair system. The American system of a pro team with attached minor league teams is a better one.

And the playoffs don't take a whole year like the Champion's League, either! The longest playoffs (basketball and hockey) take a few months, but nothing more than that. Instead of the European system of uneven national leagues below with the Champion's League for winners, in most US the better teams with somewhat similarly-sized stadiums are in one league, then smaller teams with less money are in smaller stadiums, and are usually attached to a pro team. You don't need national leagues with lots of bad teams in them and then a tournament of the better teams only, because only teams which actually can compete are in the top league to begin with.

The major exception to this is football, which just has the pros and college, no minors. I'm not sure why, I don't follow football. Maybe because of the popularity of college football? But on that note, college sports are quite popular in the US, unlike Europe, and obviously that's not something that could be attached to the relegation system. (The largest stadiums in the US aren't pro football stadiums, they are college football stadiums. It's a HUGE thing, particularly in the South and Midwest.) College and minor-league teams are how pro teams get their players.

I've read that the American system of pro sports is actually more "socialist" than the European one, in that things such as revenue sharing, salary caps, and no relegation ensure that all teams have a chance to win, either in the short or long term. In Europe, a few superteams completely dominate, and others really have no chance to challenge them; much less equal.

Multi purpose stadiums serve a public utility and as such it could be argued are worth public funding.

But if its just for one sport for one team its kind of silly.

The good thing about England and their relegation, is that the fans are realllllllllllllly loyal. (Way too loyal really)
Multipurpose stadiums are bad because they aren't ideal for any sport. Hockey + basketball in one arena does work, but baseball + football in one does not, it was tried in the '70s and '80s and was abandoned for a reason. It's particularly bad for the baseball side of things, though it hurts football too I believe. Even soccer wants their own stadiums now, to not have to share with football (grass turf issues, etc.)

Also, cities don't make money off of stadiums; those are always big money-losing projects, every time.

Our pro sports didn't grow from clubs. Our sports were a natural extension of high school and collegiate sports. College has a lot of conference and divisional movement though no true system for it. Think of it more as the old pro wrestling territory system. The pro teams protected each other and shared stars to survive the rough patches and keep the league as a whole alive. Hell before Magic and Bird some NBA Finals couldn't even get live broadcast on TV.
No, football and basketball grew out of colleges, but baseball did grow from clubs. The first professional baseball clubs were established in the US in the 1860s, just a couple of years after the first pro soccer teams in England earlier that decade. That baseball didn't grow out of colleges is probably one of the reasons for baseball's massive minor league system -- for those who don't know, each of the 30 MLB teams has five or, usually, six minor league teams that they own below them, in six levels (rookie, short-season A (short season single-A), A (single-A), Advanced A (Advanced Single-A), AA (Double-A), and AAA (Triple-A). Some players start in college, but many go straight from high school to the minors; baseball is a hard sport to learn, and getting good enough to get to the pros takes time. Back in the 1800s and early 1900s there was more shifting back and forth between "major" and "minor" league status, but by the early 20th century things solidified into a version of the current system of major and minor leagues, because only some leagues could afford to keep up top-level play, and the concept of relegation has never existed in the US.

But yes, for basketball and football the college influence is important.
 

legend166

Member
There are other reasons beyond money.

The logistics would be basically impossible, for one. England is the size of Alabama. Looking at the English football league set up, the top five are nationwide. Try having a fifth tier league in the US be nationwide - it's a practical nightmare. Where are you going to get the money to fly teams around? English teams can hop on a bus and be done. Heck, they can drive themselves.

So once you realise that it's practically impossible to have nationwide lower tier leagues, you start to hit the problem of exactly where the teams get relegated once they go down.

On top of this, the very nature of US sports (especially basketball and American football) make it incredibly hard to compete at a top level without the benefits that come with being at the top level. It's much easier (relatively speaking) for a lower tier soccer/football side compete against the top level - you can choose to stack your defence and counterattack, nullifying the skill/fitness advantage of your opponents. So when a lower tier team gets promoted to the top level, they're still able to compete to a certain degree. That's not going to happen in American sports.

Simply stating that money is the reason presents this idea that American sports owners are somehow more money driven than European football clubs, which doesn't really seem to be the case. Any league with private ownership is going to be money focused to a certain degree.
 

Dennis

Banned
Why do you think they exist in England? For the good of the people? Do you think Glazer ran Manchester United for charity?

Outside of a few really big clubs I think they mostly exists because the locals are passionate about them.

I doubt they are good investments for the most part.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
The only sport this could possibly work in America is baseball. I think it would be interesting. Even then you'd have to completely alter the relationships between the big league and the minor leagues and some more stadiums would need to be built when promotion did happen.
I suggest watching this documentary, which featured the fight that happened when an independent minor league team basically tried to trump the MLB-owned minor league teams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battered_Bastards_of_Baseball
(Bonus, it features Kurt Russell talking about his short baseball career).

Relegation would never happen in baseball because of how entrenched everything is at this point, as fun as it would be to see the Blue Jays pay for bombing year after year.
 

leroidys

Member
Money.

The teams would sue because of all the money they would lose by relegation.

Sports in America exists to make money.

This. Basically every sports team in America is just a small, insanely profitable corporation. Makes the hate it engendered between fans even more pathetic and depressing.

In the US this is the role college sports plays.

Many college teams make HUGE money.
 
Why do you think they exist in England? For the good of the people? Do you think Glazer ran Manchester United for charity?

No, but I think the point is that major market teams would dominate far more here than they already do because of their money situation. Creating caps, forcing a draft and making teams pay luxury taxes attempts to keep teams on a level playing field and it barely works even then. If we were to relegate teams, we'd be left with just the major markets like New York, LA, Dallas, Boston etc. Like who can you expect to be at the top of the Primiere League each year? It's the same 4 teams. There was one team this year Man U played that hadn't beaten them in like 25 years. We don't want that in the US.
 
I'd love to see the Sixers get relegated and have to play in the D-league for a year.

Many college teams make HUGE money.

I was under the impression that there are a few big schools that make a killing but most don't make much if anything. But I could be completely wrong about this.
 
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