I feel you, man. Just probing thought processes.
If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?
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I feel you, man. Just probing thought processes.
Tesseract
Banned
again, why conflate acceptance and preference? i don't get it.
I do not want to date/have sex with a woman that doesn't have a natural vagina.
Surgery is always a messy procedure. Most of the time you can always tell when a person has had a nosejob or fake boobs. I'm sure that having a vagina surgically made from other parts will never be or feel as good as the real thing. I understand that for transwomen there is no better option, but that doesn't mean I have to like the result.
So I'm prejudice because I'm sure I won't ever be homosexual? That's what you're saying. I would never date a man. I would never date a transgender. It's my preference.
I know. And I'm agreeing. If someone was born a man and could become a female, I don't see the issue.
That is currently not possible.
Simply Sarah
Member
OK, let me try asking you instead: What defines sex here, besides it being "biological"?
I'm not sure what there is to not understand, intentionally obtuse perhaps?
You are born with a genetic code. this genetic code causes your body to form into the shape that it does, in this specific argument: Male or female.
This biological function is what causes the physical differentiation between the sexes, sexual organs, chemical differences in the brain, etc. Regardless of what happens in the brain, your body doesn't care. Mother Nature isn't considerate to your whims, hormone treatments and surgeries do not actually change your genetic code, and every cell in your body is trying to reject the changes a trans person that goes through with operations makes to it.
It is perfectly ok for someone to defend a person's right to identify as male or female, but still not be physically attracted to someone who wants to LOOK male or female without being it physically. There is a huge disconnect between the two aspects of sex and gender, and we are constantly reminded of it when it's convenient, but you can't just ignore the physical ramifications when you want to.
Okay, so buddy cares about genotype in addition to the phenotype you've explained. What does your explanation of phenotype change about his interest in genotype?
No, it is because when you can tell it is because the nosejob was fake or you knew before hand.
All wigs are fake
A constructed vagina by a skilled surgeon is all but indistinguishable, except to a gynecologist or someone with a uterus-busting tier sex toy.
Well, those are pretty high standards. In my own life (and I'm 28), I know only a bare handful of white cis men who I know are anti-racist, anti-sexist, not transphobic, etc., etc. - and all of those are gay men. I could believe that she's not met a straight white cis man who meets that standard. I mean, I think the fact of the matter is that being those things takes an active effort. Just think about the "anti-racist" part. If you look at white American's attitudes on racial questions, where over half of white respondents say that blacks lack willpower, or two-thirds think blacks are disadvantaged because of their welfare dependency. Already that's a large chunk of white people excised because they have actively racist beliefs, and that doesn't mean that the remainder are actively anti-racist. If you keep slicing down the demographic until you only have the people who are truly intersectional in their commitment to social justice... sure. I could see not having met a white person who has fulfilled that.
Count Dookkake
Member
I'd probably give it a shot.
I did a Google image search and respectfully disagree.
Simply Sarah
Member
No, I'm asking which part of "biology" determines someone's sex. Is it their sex chromosome genotype? Is it the genitals they have at birth? Something else?
Heterosexuality is not a social construct, it is the cornerstone of reproduction and the continuation of the species, it is the normative that has driven human evolution.
As for not ever wanting to have sex with a transwoman being prejudicial, is only in the sense I don't want to have sex with biological males who identify as men or biologcal males who identify as women.
I fully support peoples rights to identify as whatever gender the wish and their rights to be free from harrasment or prejudice in society.
Personal choices about who you like and want to fuck does not come under the same scrutiny.
I think this is ultimately where I'm going to have to fall on this. If there was a fool-proof scientific process that turned a man into a woman entirely (form, function, etc.), then I would be on board to date a transgender woman.
Let me guess, you went to pictures of post surgery stuff where is all swolen and bloated ?
I think it would absolutely be a perfect world. Then, questions like this wouldn't need to come up in the first place. Also, what does my being/not being bisexual matter if I think that it would make the world a better place? I don't have to be something to think that said something would make the world a better/perfect place.
You're saying that peoples' perspective is important, and I don't disagree, but keep in mind that if society were different in this "perfect world" that is completely hypothetical, then there might be a lot of people in this thread who'd think far differently than they do now.
This may seem like it's flying in the face of things I've said, but I don't consider someone who won't have sex with a trans person to be a bigot. To me, a bigot is someone who says "I'll never see a MtF as a female and I will always call him "him" because he's NOT A WOMAN!" My husband was like this until we became friends with a transgender lady and he realized, "holy shit, her chromosomes are irrelevant." He's a "medical guy" so until we actually knew a trans person, he couldn't wrap his head around it.
Although I think your girlfriend not wanting to try sex toys is not near the same thing as rejecting a person outright. I gave reasons why I wouldn't want to have sex with a trans person either way. Personally, most likely I'd try it anyway because I'm adventurous like that, but I don't find people saying that they wouldn't offensive. It makes sense to me and I hate certain things about myself personally, like, how I don't think I'd actually LIKE to have sex with a transgender person either way and it bugs me how I feel about it, but this is one of those things that's deep down that I can't shake. That's why, to me, a world where everyone was bisexual would be awesome. Actually, I think the better one would be, I guess, pansexual? whatever, basically no one gave a shit what gender someone else was, they just saw them as people and all were *potential* equal opportunities.
Cheers, Mate.
Touche and good point. I can't really argue at all if it's all consenting adults, right? If two people are out for one-night stands and the transgender person is ok with just giving head, then more power to them.
Does it get wet?
User 73706
Banned
Yeah, seconded. It seems like extremely short-sighted thinking. "I'll give them the time of day when we figure out how to seamlessly change sex and gender" essentially shuts them out of any chance of advancement. If the populace at large didn't condone them now, how can you possibly expect them to ever get to that stage of seamlessness?
Adding on to this, while we're all guilty of it, in general I think that spouting an objective absolute as a personal, subjective preference is pretty shallow thinking. Obviously there are exceptions for any given intelligent culture's notions of sin or "evils," e.g. "institutionalized racism is never a good thing," but those evils are usually wrought out of one or more minds harmonically reinforcing an objective absolute as "preference" in the first place. Look no farther than the recent anti-vaccination movements, in terms of a real-world example.
Gender is identity. Sex is biological. I'm considering going into a health profession, so I've studied a lot of anatomy on the side. I really enjoy therapy of the muscles, so I know the muscles and the skeleton. I'm surrounded by four posters of anatomy, as we speak, since my girlfriend is studying to become a nurse. There are so many anatomical differences between the male sex and the female sex. They are from such overwhelming differences as numbers of nerve endings in the anus, the complexity of nerves around the pelvic area, uterus, tilt of the pelvic bone, all the way to more minute differences like sizes of the scapula/shoulder blade, sizes of muscles, cardiovascular differences, placement of organs, and of course over to physiology and hormones, brain chemistry, and so forth.
These things are emulated by hormone supplements and surgery. Hormone supplements enlarges the clitoris before the second type of penis operation, where the enlarged clitoris is made to make a small, but fully functioning "penis". However, it has still the nerve-endings of a clitoris, and the urethra was moved into the "penis" by a surgeon. These are not biological changes. They're modifications. If you modify your sex, you've modified your sex. You have not swapped your sex. There are a million things science can never perfectly recreate or change. Even if we grew uteri out of stem cells and modified DNA of a pre-op trans that was put in place and was functioning, it would not be a person of the female sex.
UncleSporky
Member
I thought there was an article a while back where scientists said that was all just pee.
This is just getting ridiculous. You know they often require regular use of a stent so they don't close completely, right? That might be a bit of a giveaway.
Might have been. I used Thailand in the terms. Several images came up, all looked like gunshot wounds. No labia minora in any.
Well said. Exactly what I think on the subject.
breakfuss
Member
lolno
Mostly of places that post it are doctor sites ... and they only take pictures when the person is there to see if everything ok .... they don't come back when they are sure that everything is ok =P
Simply Sarah
Member
First off, many of those things aren't "emulated" by HRT, they occur naturally as the body reacts to the hormones. Second, where is the line that you're drawing between someone being "a person of the female sex" and not?
PorcellainThrill
Member
I read the first couple of pages of this thread and just wanted to say that the lengths people go through to masquerade their obvious bigotry as "sexual preference" is fucking hilarious.
It would greatly amuse me to read their reasoning as for why the percentage of interracial couples has greatly increased since the 50s.
Have you never asked yourself if your sacred "sexual preference" might just be based on cultural biases?
The lack of introspection a lot of people in this thread display is absolutely staggering.
It would greatly amuse me to read their reasoning as for why the percentage of interracial couples has greatly increased since the 50s.
Have you never asked yourself if your sacred "sexual preference" might just be based on cultural biases?
The lack of introspection a lot of people in this thread display is absolutely staggering.
Zoe
Member
Er... different thing.
So fucking what? It's still constructed, even if what you were saying was true, which it simply isn't. If I could buy a sex-toy that was "indistinguishable, except to a gynecologist" (leaving out the part of uterus busting part, because I don't understand what you're trying to say), it wouldn't be a woman.
I made the assumption that people will view a transgender as their post-transition gender and not their pre-transition gender. The fact that you consider dating an M2F trans as homosexuality is another more fundamental issue I have no intention of tackling.
This argument is and will become increasingly disingenuous as society divorces romance and sexual companionship from reproduction. Unless you date exclusively to find a life partner to propagate your genes, then that makes you an exception.
See above for the male thing.
It's rather complex, but the jist of it is that the Y chromosome causes significant hormonal, physiological and anatomical changes to take place during development prior to birth and throughout early development/puberty which cause someone to be biologically male.
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
I certainly can't blame people for having their preferences - if you wish to remain your personal definition of hetero, that's fine. If you are attracted to someone who is the same physical and biological sex and gender as yourself, that's fine too. If you're attracted to someone who started life as one biological sex but identified and began transitioning/transitioned to the gender they understand their true selves to be, then I don't see the problem. But I know it's a difficult hurdle for some to overcome.
For me, I would absolutely date someone who is transgendered if we click. Sex itself is just one aspect of many in a relationship. I feel open-minded enough that if they're the right person in most aspects, I could maintain sexual chemistry with them as well. I'm happy, they're happy.
For me, I would absolutely date someone who is transgendered if we click. Sex itself is just one aspect of many in a relationship. I feel open-minded enough that if they're the right person in most aspects, I could maintain sexual chemistry with them as well. I'm happy, they're happy.
Ingueferroque
Banned
End thread.
No, some things are not emulated. Male can lactate. Some things are emulated, like a constructed vagina. It's not a vagina. It's one that's been constructed. We should all know that an embryo develop identically for both sexes for a while, however, once the development has happened, you can't just invert the penis and force me to call it "a real vagina". Where the line's drawn? Far away from being born of the male sex and modifying it to emulate the female sex. Technicalities there don't matter.
I think you've been misinformed about post-vaginoplasty dilation. The stent is removed a few days after the major surgery, and while dilation in the early weeks is done frequently, it can be slowed to the rate of once a month after some time has passed.
Also, you'll find you can substitute an actual dick after a while with no issues.
A constructed vagina does not have a uterus on top of it, so the whole thing stops a bit before where you'd expect a uterus to be. You'd probably only notice this if you had a sex toy capable of going right into the uterus, or were exceptionally well-endowed.
Perhaps superficially... but I'd seriously question any medical professional with a speculum and upon closer inspection that did not notice inconsistencies, come on now. And that isn't even getting into some of the more gritty details like possible hair growth that can happen inside and that needs to be checked and cleaned out.
kahboomkin
Member
I had a long post typed out, but screw it.
I would date a trans girl if I found her attractive.
Actually I could probably date anyone if I thought they were attractive.
I would date a trans girl if I found her attractive.
Actually I could probably date anyone if I thought they were attractive.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'm well aware what happens, but that doesn't answer the question of what it means to be "biologically male/female".
I didn't say all nosejobs look fake but many do. With breast implants once you are up close and personal it is even easier to tell by how they feel, bounce, react to gravity, etc. My main point was that the vagina is a complex organ, and there is no way that a surgeon is going to be able to replicate it by stitching together tissue from other parts. I assume you have seen people that have had reconstructive surgery because of accidents (animal attacks, burns, etc.). They never look the same as before. It's the same with a transgender surgery.
You're being rather aggressive.
Wow. No. I am showing you another sexual preference I have. I am not homosexual. I will never have sex with a man. That not prejudice. I am, at the same time, also never going to have sex with a transgender, no matter which way around it's been changed. That is also not prejudice, but my preference. You said that if I'm not open to dating a transgender, I'm prejudice. I amn't. I also do view my sexuality to pertain to the sex, and not to the gender. I am not interested in having sex with someone whose sex is male, no matter how modified or made to look like a woman it is. It's sad that you spread vitrol instead of understanding. Disregarding my comment because you misinterpret it, then try to invalidate the whole thing on that basis is weak.
M0nochromatic
Member
What's been discussed is that the idea of a trans person is unattractive to some people. Throughout the thread there are examples where the idea is introduced where someone sees an individual they find attractive, but upon gaining the information that they're trans, they lose that attractiveness. No one is arguing that people should be forced to find certain physical features appealing. That's a strawman that keeps getting touted out. Some of the early posts had people actually talking about how chromosmes mattered to them.
That's the rub. It's acknowledged that preference for dudes or dudettes is biological and natural. There's nothing wrong with being into whatever your into, but if you'r into guys or girls, why don't trans-guys and trans-girls count? There's a reason for that perception. There's a cause for the attraction to breasts, pecs, dicks, butts, but if a trans-person has those physical features that are found attractive, what happens to the attraction? What does being transgender have to do with sexual appeal? Why is the word "trans" a turn off in certain minds?
And again, stop trying to split hairs. This lies far away of any medical technicality about ketotype and chromosomes.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Hrm..I've read this topic all the way through. And despite reading differing opinions, various viewpoints, my own view on the matter is still the same-I just prefer to date someone that's all natural. Sex wise, I suppose. Gender wise too, I guess. And yeah, I'm potentially looking for a partner I want to have kids with.
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