Destiny is very much a consumer-unfriendly product
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Not lapping PR lip, I promise.
I think the game should have tools, like those that exist in WoW and FF XIV, to put together a group in game. At the very least you should be able to flag yourself and have some area of the tower to hang out and meet other people.
I do not think you should be able to sign up to be matchmade for the raids. It would ruin the spirit of the whole thing, and runs contrary to the level of coordination they designed them around. Why cant a game have high difficulty content for teams who want a rewarding experience designed for a team of people with microphones?
Best case scenario: occasionally a group, maybe 1 in 50, gets put together where people have mics, patience and a good attitude.
What will actually happen: new players will come in without mics or any clue what they should be doing and slow down the group to a complete halt as they wipe on the first encounter. Instead of taking the time to communicate or engage the mechanics, players will drop the group out of frustration and leave it in matchmaking hell where it is constantly 4/6 players and new players leave immediately.
The only solution is what WoW did, which dances between sucking horribly while you wait for the members you need to be matchmade in, and feeling like a dumbed down experience that runs contrary to all the intelligent design that made it good in the first place.
No. Please. Its not worth it.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
There is no legitimate reason to not have matchmaking. The only reason there are people defending it is because it's a decision made by the developer, accompanied by contrived reasoning and mental gymnastics.
I know. Now imagine nf's or raids when people start to fuck it up. Those can take considerable amount of time. It just wouldn't work.
I so hope they keep mm out of nf and raids or at least give us an option.
Agreed, it's not hard for anyone to find a group to raid with. it takes almost no effort.
Bungie could have a better way to find people but matchmaking really doesn't need to be in for the raids but should be in the nightfall and weekly
Then make it so that if you idle for more than, lets say 5 minutes, you get kicked and another player joins it.
Pretty much. It's not like Turn 9 coil in FFXIV is "easy" just because the game lets you queue for it. What's wrong with letting people fail in a PuG?
People have had experience with Raids not only in Destiny but in other games with Raids as well. Not only Raids but other co-operative efforts that require skillful play and coordination from both players to progress. Those games have better social infrastructures built in or better options to organize a group within the game.
Some games might not have MM for these types of modes but they have the ability to make games and tag the games with titles like "lvl28+ players only" or "casual players only". Destiny doesn't even have something like this.
The real issue with Raids in Destiny is that there isn't punishment for playing bad or AFKing or leaving like there is in multiplayer. That's why MM works in multiplayer games... because you can't really afford to be bad or just be AFK. Imagine if you joined a couple of Raids and you AFK'd during it. Well the system would kick you and if you did it twice in a row you would be banned from playing Raids for a certain period of time. This would automatically curb irresponsible players and put a higher percentage of "good" players in the system. They can even have a vote system at the end of Raids so that good players are upvoted and bad players are down voted and you have the option of MM only with players who have a good record in Raids. I mean that's what MATCH MAKING is about... you should be matched with players who have equal Raid experience as you... you shouldn't be matching up with people who are in their first Raid and if it's doing that then it's a BAD MM system to begin with.
The point is that there are many options they can implement within the game to allow players of equal skill to play Raids but they haven't implemented it because "reasons".
xplicitone
Member
People can find groups from the Destiny GAF Community fairly easily. The weekend seems the hardest these days since a lot of people get them done Tuesday-Thursday, and catch up Monday night. That's been the trend lately imo. When DLC comes out it'll probably be easy to get groups every night.
If you can't find people, destinylfg works and teams these days are fairly good on there. Most just have dumb reqs and I'll ignore it if it's all I can find.
Nightfalls and raids are literally the only thing I do these days. And heroic weeklies just for the rep
If you can't find people, destinylfg works and teams these days are fairly good on there. Most just have dumb reqs and I'll ignore it if it's all I can find.
Nightfalls and raids are literally the only thing I do these days. And heroic weeklies just for the rep
Twilight Gap
Member
There are several:
-AFKers.
-Griefers (refusing to revive, pushing you into enemies).
-Players who don't communicate or don't understand what to do.
-Players who are not invested in the activity (play for a few minutes and quit or leave if it's not going well).
-Poor class build-up (it's not necessary, but diversity is good for making the runs go smoothly).
These are things I've seen with my own two eyes while playing the game. Manual matchmaking through a website is not convenient or ideal, but the little effort required to do so usually eliminates all of those problems. The game would need a brand new lobby system like CoD's Zombie/Extinction if it's going to simulate that experience.
outunderthestars
Banned
But it's not like finding random people on a website will suddenly create better teamwork than match making. It just forces the player to spend more time outside of the game itself.
I really have to disagree with this
I was happy they added matchmaking to the weekly heroic strikes... but even then it can be frustrating to be running a strike and have to start a check point over again only to see everyone drop out of the lobby. But in the weekly its not so bad because you have the checkpoint and you can safely continue until others get thrown in.
The nightfall is just harder because everyone dying sends you back to orbit and with no way to guarantee everyone is communicating within that lobby it can make it difficult to organize strategy etc. I wouldn't be upset if they added matchmaking to the nightfall but i could see nightfall becoming very frustrating to get through if you get unlucky in matchmaking.
Raids absolutely should not have matchmaking. As someone who only has 1 or 2 friends playing the game i resort to looking for group websites and getting in a lobby of mismatched individuals, who all have mics, and most have completed the raids, and yet there are plenty of times a group has failed in the raid and gave up. LFG sites work reasonably alright but even then it can be frustrating and i only see an in game matchmaking greatly increasing the problems.
I was happy they added matchmaking to the weekly heroic strikes... but even then it can be frustrating to be running a strike and have to start a check point over again only to see everyone drop out of the lobby. But in the weekly its not so bad because you have the checkpoint and you can safely continue until others get thrown in.
The nightfall is just harder because everyone dying sends you back to orbit and with no way to guarantee everyone is communicating within that lobby it can make it difficult to organize strategy etc. I wouldn't be upset if they added matchmaking to the nightfall but i could see nightfall becoming very frustrating to get through if you get unlucky in matchmaking.
Raids absolutely should not have matchmaking. As someone who only has 1 or 2 friends playing the game i resort to looking for group websites and getting in a lobby of mismatched individuals, who all have mics, and most have completed the raids, and yet there are plenty of times a group has failed in the raid and gave up. LFG sites work reasonably alright but even then it can be frustrating and i only see an in game matchmaking greatly increasing the problems.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Problem is we who play sometimes step away during a break during Raids (typically before Gatekeepers/Atheon in VoG or DeathSinger/Crota in CE).
People could go around it, but it's generally a significant enough of a time commitment that sometimes people do have to attend to things where everyone is understanding of it.
That's a far cry from the active dicking about that takes place in matchmaking, which range from AFKers (who will just be active enough anyway by moving or shooting at anything else but what they're supposed to like in any other game) to people purposely ramming and killing players with their sparrows they bring inside the combat zones.
The bolded are problems that can be fixed by a proper MM system that punishes players for those actions just like in multiplayer games and pairs up players who are actually good/skilled at Raids.
You know what happens in multiplayer games when you leave games? You start losing rankings and after a certain point you can even get banned from playing multiplayer altogether.
Also the bolded parts can apply to people you randomly meet on websites as well. I have had people drop on me that I found from online sites because they had something else to do. It's not something that is exclusive to MM.
That changes literally nothing. If you go into matchmaking without a full party, you clearly weren't able to create that team and you'd have to play without those players' input anyway.
With matchmaking you at least have a chance of finding someone willing to play. Getting matched with an AFK player is pretty much a Vanilla Destiny Simulator, you get to play it the way it was originally designed, as the most lonely "social experience".
Gunslinger
Member
Not the same thing I played WoW back in the vanilla era. We had atleast 10 or more 40 man raiding guilds in durotan back then that were progression raid guild. top 5-6 had 40 man on farm status except for Naxx. But problem with destiny is there is no in game chat to form a raid in the first place. Absolutely 0 social aspect. The game doesn't even have a guild system. Heck it doesn't even have a general chat lol.
There are several excuses but the HUGE elephant in the room is that RAIDs is significant content on the game (THE END GAME) that will never be experienced by millions of players who bought Destiny.
There is no way to spin that and no excuse big enough to excuse it. So....sure you can make practical excuses for design (arguably poor/simplistic design) that blocks (some) from content but the fact is those excuses crumble to dust under any stress. There is only one thing that's debatable and the core of the issue design wise, complexity vs. accessibility.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
None of those are legitimate reasons for not having matchmaking. These are issues that have been long solved for years in other games through penalizing poor behaviour and giving players the ability to deal with people who grief or afk.
Pretty much, MM is the least of its problem... the game simply lacks basic social infrastructures.
And have we really stooped to comparing Destiny to a game that came out over a decade ago? Come on now folks...
Doomburrito7
Banned
Short Answer:
Long Answer:
Yup
Long Answer:
............Yup
They werent designed to be matchmade, its as simple as that.
If you carefully construct a mode meant for an organized group of six people, it is ridiculous to taint that experience by setting up six strangers for failure, even if they ask for it. Not only that, but that is even worse game design than not having matchmaking.
I actually take the five minutes of effort it takes to put a raid group together, and I've stopped doing the second raid, Crotas End, because I find it too easy to get stuck wiping on the boss, even with a team of people who know what they are doing and have microphones. How is matchmaking going to fix that?
If you make the effort to find two other people, why not just put together a group of six? How do you enforce that everyone has and uses a mic? What about groups that use Skype?
Its a good sentiment, and a problem that needs fixing, but matchmaking is not the answer. It is a slippery slope that leads to dumbing down that content for the matchmade groups so that they can actually accomplish something.
BigJonsson
Member
I sold the game months ago but I had a blast playing with random Gaffers in the community thread
If you need people to game with just look to Gaf, most people here are pretty awesome
If you need people to game with just look to Gaf, most people here are pretty awesome
Twilight Gap
Member
Exactly. These are issues that have been solved with the necessary systems, of which Destiny does not have.
There is no quitting ban
There is no AFK ban
There is no vote to kick
Consider that these systems don't exist, and then consider the way matchmaking in Destiny works. There's no voting, and no pre-game lobby where players are able to size up their teammates.
With the way the game is designed right now, throwing matchmaking into the Raids and Nightfalls would be a disaster. We can already see it causing problems in the Weekly, because you're no longer able to tackle it solo and you're not always guaranteed to have compliant teammates.
Also taking into account the rate at which Bungie releases these major changes, and one begins to see that none of these systems are going to find their way into the game in a timely manner.
The "millions of people" who have not experienced a Raid could Raid 10 times before matchmaking ever gets implemented. It's not as simple as flipping on a switch and I don't need to be fed Bungie PR to see why.
I personally don't care if somebody has a bad experience with randoms. I just don't want half-assed bandaid systems thrown in place because that's really all Bungie's been doing to the game at this point.
Especially consideing that game has a huge amount of MM and socials functions that have been added on since then.
So Bungie wanted to make a 'social' game that has less social functions in-game then a game 10 years ago, much-less one today, which now are mostly standardized.
Destiny doesn't meet the standard for social functions...10 years ago.
If we were to list the stuff that Destiny doesn't have but should we would be here all night.
It might not create a better team but i feel it gives you a better chance at a successful team than clicking a start button and hoping you land in a good lobby.
Atleast with LFG sites there's enough information presented to the individual trying to get into a group. Be it what checkpoint they are starting at, what role an existing group might be seeking someone to fill, and to a lesser desirable fashion level or gear requests for those looking to join.
Add a vote kicK, or rewards for good behavior/punishments for bad.
All of this has been covered in a multitude of other MMO games, for those unfamiliar with them. And it still confuses me: isn't getting some random people off some website the same as getting random people from an MM system?
Nobody is using Skype. Come on, now.
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
Considering that their previous game had quit ban and mute ban... no.
And yet, they treat raids like they're old EverQuest raids or something.
CouchMaster
Member
Trust me OP, you don't want to do raids and nightfalls with random people.
You might not want that. But don't project that onto others.
Crimson_Fate
Member
Had the game since launch and have never done a Raid, I have no problem playing if the Raids were handled like strikes but I have no intention of sitting in the lobby begging people to play. .
If people want to do strikes today they can do them as teams if they have the people so there was no reason to force this "Social begging" on the raids or nightfalls
Done some Nightfalls solo when possible (same issue as with raids) ... but primarily play PVP now.
I will not pay for any additional expansions, this is as far as I go with this
If people want to do strikes today they can do them as teams if they have the people so there was no reason to force this "Social begging" on the raids or nightfalls
Done some Nightfalls solo when possible (same issue as with raids) ... but primarily play PVP now.
I will not pay for any additional expansions, this is as far as I go with this
I feel like this argument will just run in circles and it's really up to Bungie how they will go forward with it for Destiny 2.
There were a lot of similar arguments for and against the Auction House/Trading situation in Diablo 3. It's true that if all things kept equal and Blizzard had removed the AH/trading, then the game would actually have been a lot worse as no one would've been able to find the appropriate gear to play some of the content. So they had to design the game around NOT having an AH which meant improving loot tables, change item trading and implement bind to account systems.
Destiny's situation is similar in that if they added MM tomorrow to Raids without any changes it would not be a better situation than what they have now. They have to make bigger design changes to the game to accommodate for this change.
There were a lot of similar arguments for and against the Auction House/Trading situation in Diablo 3. It's true that if all things kept equal and Blizzard had removed the AH/trading, then the game would actually have been a lot worse as no one would've been able to find the appropriate gear to play some of the content. So they had to design the game around NOT having an AH which meant improving loot tables, change item trading and implement bind to account systems.
Destiny's situation is similar in that if they added MM tomorrow to Raids without any changes it would not be a better situation than what they have now. They have to make bigger design changes to the game to accommodate for this change.
I disagree entirely.
Having the tools to put together a group is very different than having a button you hit to get matched with a random group.
The effort that goes into putting a group together allows you the ability to vet your team and make sure they have the right equipment and tools necessary. It also shows that the people who have come together are committed enough to make that effort, and arent just going to bail the first time the group wipes.
WoW is the best example of this. This isnt uncharted territory- its all been done before. Ive seen it firsthand. Matchmaking just leads to dumbing down content so that matchmade groups can actually complete it with braindead players, and then if you are playing a dumbed down version why bother?
ArkkAngel007
Member
Places like here and reddit you can search post histories and see how others did with them. It hasn't been perfect. I've ran into groups that don't mesh, too many chiefs, or have that 'one guy', but largely it's much better than a complete blind hook up.
Had no problem with GAF since relative release. Lately it's been a bit slower outside of reset days and events, but Bloodborne, injuries, and the news of the next DLC hitting a bit late can have that effect.
In fact, GAF communities has been fairly great with all the multiplayer games I've jumped in on recently (TLOU, Titanfall, Destiny).
Being on GAF, there really isn't an excuse. Have one of the largest single game |OT|s, and feel like that will be a hassle in comparison in attempting the most challenging yet [supposed to be] rewarding parts of the game?
Sounds more like you just don't want to put yourself out there at all.
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In any case, there needs to be options with these MM systems to be used or not. Should be able to start an activity have people I want to join on me if possible, instead of having to have everyone together in orbit first.
That's not complex at all to implement. And you're making sweeping assumptions about the behavior of unknowns (I can easily come up with scenarios where even in the best of cases a group disintegrates). We all know the light system pretty much serves as an entry barrier and litmus test for suitable equipment -- so the vet process you speak off is overrated - to say the least.
And I would argue that FFXIV proves that you don't need to dumb down content to have matchmaking. The content in FFXIV are much harder than a lot of the content in WoW. There are mechanics in the game that will actually kill you or wipe the group if you are not paying attention. I'd like to see how well your average WoW group would do in something like Titan EX, a fight that is overgeared and farmed to hell these days. They probably wouldn't even make it to getting the echo.
Are you serious? Plenty of people use Skype for any number of reasons. Vent and Mumble are much the same. Better call quality for people with bad connections, the ability to control who talks when, and sometimes because people just prefer not wearing a mic.
I have been in groups that swear by it.
Twilight Gap
Member
PS4 GAF has a good opportunity for most times of the day, but last gen especially doesn't have much of a following here.
I feel like the game would have been better served as a PS4 exclusive, not only for player population, but also for updating the live game at a faster pace. Destiny is the kind of game that needs weekly tweaks and patches, which has instead moved from biweekly to once a month.
StaffyManasse
Member
I don't have a strong opinion on the matchmaking and the conclusions the OP draws from the lack of it, but I agree with Destiny having consumer unfriendly design(s). Like Klossen here puts it:
I did have my fun with Destiny, and oh boy how much fun it was. But after getting burned out by the grind I could see how much of that fun had turned into compulsive playing without having fun, because of a promise that I would get something (gear, level, reputation, whatever) that would make the game fun again. If this is the kind of behaviour they are looking for with their design, I'm better off not playing their game.
I did have my fun with Destiny, and oh boy how much fun it was. But after getting burned out by the grind I could see how much of that fun had turned into compulsive playing without having fun, because of a promise that I would get something (gear, level, reputation, whatever) that would make the game fun again. If this is the kind of behaviour they are looking for with their design, I'm better off not playing their game.
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