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Pillars of Eternity Beta - Torment: Tides of the Beetles

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What would be the best stat dump and character class if I want to solve situations through dialog + be able to select all the dialogue choices?

In the backers beta- perception. But in the same breath lore, resolve, survival and even being the right race or class can give other options. Even if there is an option to use perception it isn't often the right call. You need to read responces and behavours to choose the right dialogue options. It's not like New Vegas.

New page, last call: I can pick up a copy of PoE for anyone still looking for it for $25 using the backers portal. Again last call for it.
 
I'm pretty sure I beat Fallout 1 with an idiot who wasn't able to talk and barley could hold a club (with cheats though, cause I wanted to see how the late game reacts to my idiot).
Maybe that was Fallout 2 though.

MAN remember when making a character with really low INT had an actual effect? Fallout is such a damn cool series (I just hate the battle system)

Yeah didn't arcanum do that too? That shit is the coolest/funniest feature. I hope someone else tries it.
 
You're going to have to miss out on some stuff.
Yes. If you're building a character to unlock all the dialogue and narrative options, you will be disappointed: No such character exists. Instead, think about who you'd like your character to be and what you'd like them to be skilled at and go from there.
 
My real problem with Obsidian's system is that I just don't like how it abstracts the numbers away from the characters the numbers represent. What does a high might character look like? No one knows; perhaps athletics (or maybe both) would probably be a better indicator. And then, when you ask the same question about a high might wizard, everything goes sideways.

I dunno I find this rather easy and I have always been confused about peoples objection to the system. Might means different things in different contexts so a high might melee or standard ranged character is likely to be physically strong and powerful, a high might magic user however will be spiritually strong and powerful.

I would envision a high might, low int (relatively) wizard to me would be one that has an amazing amount of raw power but lacks the skill/knowledge to fully control it.
 
Kinda torn on Obsidian's position on POE's stats, but ultimately, I think I'm on their side. Paralysis on allocating stat points is super real in IE games and other CRPGs. It's a significant pain point that probably doesn't need to exist any more in modern day gaming.

But on the other hand, I have a different perspective on people building dead-end or significantly sub-optimal builds - what if someone wants to do that?

It's one thing to design a stat system with no dump stats. I get that, andI agree with that. Don't fuck over the player 20+ hours into a game is never bad game design.

But a "side effect" is that it impacts options for power players. You can't do something like build an intentionally gimped party and see if they can still make their way through Hard. Like the very low INT Fallout runs everyone loves so much.
 
I dunno I find this rather easy and I have always been confused about peoples objection to the system. Might means different things in different contexts so a high might melee or standard ranged character is likely to be physically strong and powerful, a high might magic user however will be spiritually strong and powerful.

I would envision a high might, low int (relatively) wizard to me would be one that has an amazing amount of raw power but lacks the skill/knowledge to fully control it.
This works... until you get to a scripted interaction which clearly requires physical strength, and your wizard is best at it.

It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but I still dislike the stat system (also specifically because I don't think the goals it is designed to further - (i) preventing people from messing up and (ii) perfect class balance - are worth giving up anything for).
 
This works... until you get to a scripted interaction which clearly requires physical strength, and your wizard is best at it.

Such as what interaction? I have a hard time imagining what a powerful wizard couldn't do that a buff dude couldn't. Use fire to melt away stone or some shit.
 
But a "side effect" is that it impacts options for power players. You can't do something like build an intentionally gimped party and see if they can still make their way through Hard. Like the very low INT Fallout runs everyone loves so much.

I don't agree with this. Obviously you've played the final game and I haven't, but on a conceptual level I don't see how this is an issue. Low INT Fallout runs are not "gimped" runs. I would say the majority of people who love them, don't love them because it gives the player a clear disadvantage, but rather, they love it because the game has actual design that takes that into consideration and makes it a unique experience - Fallout 2 especially.

In the case of PoE, if someone wants to design a wacky ass build which is intentionally "bad", isn't it still possible? While every stat has a different sort of advantage regardless of class, emphasizing on certain stats would require certain play styles to fully take advantage of that. A player who wants to make a terrible build (for whatever reason), can still do so by assigning certain stats and then playing -against- type by using certain equipment and abilities which go against that build. Is that not the case?
 
Such as what interaction? I have a hard time imagining what a powerful wizard couldn't do that a buff dude couldn't. Use fire to melt away stone or some shit.
That could indeed work in almost all cases, but last time I saw an interaction on a stream it was not written that way.
 
I don't agree with this. Obviously you've played the final game and I haven't, but on a conceptual level I don't see how this is an issue. Low INT Fallout runs are not "gimped" runs. I would say the majority of people who love them, don't love them because it gives the player a clear disadvantage, but rather, they love it because the game has actual design that takes that into consideration and makes it a unique experience - Fallout 2 especially.

In the case of PoE, if someone wants to design a wacky ass build which is intentionally "bad", isn't it still possible? While every stat has a different sort of advantage regardless of class, emphasizing on certain stats would require certain play styles to fully take advantage of that. A player who wants to make a terrible build (for whatever reason), can still do so by assigning certain stats and then playing -against- type by using certain equipment and abilities which go against that build. Is that not the case?

I'm not speaking from firsthand POE experience on this. I'm still on my first go-through and I'm not a power player to begin with. Just speaking in general terms.

It just feels like stat homogenization will impact the replay value for min/maxers that want to see how far they can scrape by on the "min" side.

One of the explicit goals of POE's stat system is that there are no bad builds.
 
arm wrestling

RJVFI6H.gif
 
So I'm pretty much set on my Orlan Rogue. Unfortunately I still haven't found a portrait I want to use, none of the Male or Female ones have caught my eye. But stat and personality wise I'm pretty much all set.

M: 17
C: 3
D: 19
P: 20
I: 3
R: 16

Going full on shoot em in the face with a blunderbuss then go in and stab them to death build. All about them passives and modal abilities/talents, screw actives. Deadfire Archipelago Drifter who is likes to act clever and deceptive but in the end is good natured, if not a bit passionate at times. Pretty standard anti-hero, doesn't mind crazy violence and being underhanded but end of the day does the right thing when it counts.

Just like how the game doesn't require dump stats to be effective I feel like it also doesn't really punish you for actually doing so either so I want to see how this build fares. Especially in the early game where I feel like it will be hardest due to a lot of it being built around future talents and abilities, as well as a larger party to support it.

I'm not too concerned about my rock bottom Intellect and Constitution. I'll be able to buff those up in various ways if necessary and the other stats do a fairly solid job of making up for my defensive shortcomings save for actual Health and Endurance. But really though if my character is pulling aggro and getting attacked a lot and hit I'm doing something wrong.
 
gonna roll a 16-18 intellect, perception, resolve chanter. May the gods have mercy with my soul

I'm thinking something similar, but a bit less resolve/perception because I want enough points in might to not feel like a scrub when I hit bad guys with things. Also I might do fire godlike just because they look awesome, and I like the idea of my dude being this crazy, conflagrated weirdo running around and singing songs as he tries to bury an axe in your head or whatever.

I know godlike cant wear helms though, so I will be sad if there are really OP helms I can't use.
 
I'm not speaking from firsthand POE experience on this. I'm still on my first go-through and I'm not a power player to begin with. Just speaking in general terms.

It just feels like stat homogenization will impact the replay value for min/maxers that want to see how far they can scrape by on the "min" side.

One of the explicit goals of POE's stat system is that there are no bad builds.

If "no bad builds" means the game is more accessible to a wider variety of players and character concepts, I think that's a good thing. If that also means it's slightly harder to make the game intentionally more difficult (and somehow the dozens of optional ways of doing so outside of character creation aren't good enough), then that's a sacrifice I'm okay with.

Being able to actually make say, a smart but not terribly buff fighter in a game like this is a rarity, and not being chained to fighters = strong, mages = smart, rogues = dexterous, etc makes this game all the more appealing.
 
I dunno I find this rather easy and I have always been confused about peoples objection to the system. Might means different things in different contexts so a high might melee or standard ranged character is likely to be physically strong and powerful, a high might magic user however will be spiritually strong and powerful.

I would envision a high might, low int (relatively) wizard to me would be one that has an amazing amount of raw power but lacks the skill/knowledge to fully control it.

Might represents a character's damage, nothing more. It's not how fit or strong they are, merely how much they can damage enemies. That's why it does the same thing for every class, regardless of how they actually, physically harm enemies. Athletics is a better stat for overall fitness, but it is irrelevant to actual damage dealt AFAIK. So Might is some abstraction of combat prowess, tactics, and knowledge, whereas Athletics is a character's actual, physical condition, but not their ability to actually apply that in combat.

Like, in PoE, glancing at a character's attributes tells you nothing about the character, whereas in D&D it tells you everything. D&D's so clunky because it's designed for roleplaying first, before anything else, which leads to some... weird situations, especially in video games. PoE's change will make character creation inherently more min-max-y, because the attributes are so nebulous and far-reaching, meaning entirely different things for different classes. At least, that's how I see things having not played the game yet.


I'm really curious as to how Obsidian will make attribute checks work in dialog in a way that applies to all classes.

That could indeed work in almost all cases, but last time I saw an interaction on a stream it was not written that way.
This is the stuff I want to avoid, and why D&D's system works well for character-based checks.

I'll have a specific character in mind, and every time it's broken like this will be a bummer.
 
I'm not speaking from firsthand POE experience on this. I'm still on my first go-through and I'm not a power player to begin with. Just speaking in general terms.

It just feels like stat homogenization will impact the replay value for min/maxers that want to see how far they can scrape by on the "min" side.

One of the explicit goals of POE's stat system is that there are no bad builds.

But that's my point, it doesn't change that. "There are no bad builds" does not mean "all builds play the same way" or "there is no way put yourself at a disadvantage". Stats are only one part of the equation. A character is defined by stats, abilities, and equipment. It should be very possible to create a specific combination of that which puts a character in the most disadvantage for that build, and attempt to play through the game that way. For example, creating a Wizard with extremely high Might and low Intellect, and then deciding to specialize in buffs instead of offensive spells.
 
I agree that abstracting away from typical physical attributes for stats comes with some issues. When an attribute means something completely different from one class to the next, how do you get a good sense of what your character actually is in an empirical sense? Might on a wizard vs a fighter is the clearest example.

Not sure how I feel about it, but considering how one dimensional the attribute systems of almost every CRPG are I'm totally open minded about how it plays out in the game. The more interesting choices the better.
 
Even though I keep refreshing the Backer Products page just in case they put up the Backer Rewards for downloading I have zero faith they'll go up today. It's basically muscle memory now on autopilot.
 
Even though I keep refreshing the Backer Products page just in case they put up the Backer Rewards for downloading I have zero faith they'll go up today. It's basically muscle memory now on autopilot.

Would that be a dexterity or resolve check?

Any word on when it actually unlocks? Midnight? 9am?

The Steam store page suggests a standard release, almost exactly 23 hours from now.

There's been a couple games that pushed it forward to the previous night, though. Dragonball Xenoverse in particular pushed release forward like 12 hours because of timezones or something. (It happened with no warning, too!)
 
Oh people worried about the Might interactions? I brought this up a couple of days ago.
It has been discussed for over a year, we're just warming it up again because we have to do something while waiting another 22 hours. At least that goes for me, no idea about you guys.

I agree that abstracting away from typical physical attributes for stats comes with some issues. When an attribute means something completely different from one class to the next, how do you get a good sense of what your character actually is in an empirical sense? Might on a wizard vs a fighter is the clearest example.

Not sure how I feel about it, but considering how one dimensional the attribute systems of almost every CRPG are I'm totally open minded about how it plays out in the game. The more interesting choices the better.
I think it's probably a good system for combat, but it sucks for everything else. Personally, I'd rather have something which is unbalanced in combat and/or one-dimensional than something which breaks character, well, characterization. But clearly this is an issue of priorities.
 
Would that be a dexterity or resolve check?



The Steam store page suggests a standard release, almost exactly 23 hours from now.

There's been a couple games that pushed it forward to the previous night, though. Dragonball Xenoverse in particular pushed release forward like 12 hours because of timezones or something. (It happened with no warning, too!)

I don't see the release getting pushed up due to the review embargo, would be nice though.
 
I don't see the release getting pushed up due to the review embargo, would be nice though.

If they can stream the first 15 hours without restrictions, the obvious thing to do is push release forward by 15 hours. Someone tweet Paradox with this revelation.

I think it's probably a good system for combat, but it sucks for everything else. Personally, I'd rather have something which is unbalanced in combat and/or one-dimensional than something which breaks character, well, characterization. But clearly this is an issue of priorities.

It's doubly crushing to me, because as EviLore alluded to, using a character's attributes and skills in dialog is one of the things Obsidian is best at. So few devs bother, but Obsidian always went to great lengths with it.

The only other dev I can think of that really goes to town with in-dialog skill/attribute checks is Harebrained Schemes and Shadowrun, which does good work with it.
 
I think that the way Might conflates physical strength and the ability to cast powerful spells is somewhat problematic. Josh has stated explicitly that "realism" just wasn't a priority for the design of the attributes, but rather he was focused on making the mechanical benefits of each attribute clear, and making a wide variety of attribute allocations viable for each class. I think, though, that more attention to how the attributes work in combat vs how they work in dialogue and scripted interactions was warranted.

That said, Might is really the only weakness in the attribute system, as far as out-of-combat stuff goes. The other attributes are pretty clear. I think people also forget that D&D suffers the exact same problem. Wisdom, as a single attribute, is complete nonsense. It conflates perception, willpower, and proficiency in an incoherent and poorly defined set of fields (e.g., why is Heal a Wisdom skill in 3.x? Other than the expectation that Clerics will take it?). Depending on the edition, Charisma is also pretty much nonsense, conflating charm and some sort of "strength of character" that overlaps with Wisdom in weird ways. I think people are just more accepting of D&D's quirky attributes out of familiarity.

Edit: For that matter, Dexterity conflates gross agility, manual dexterity and reaction speed in a way prevents you from representing various character concepts (why must an Olympic gymnast be good at picking locks?). Also, why is there an attribute dedicated solely to how much you can bench (Strength), and then another attribute covering pretty much all other aspects of your physical conditioning (Constitution). D&D attributes are a complete mess.
 
I think that the way Might conflates physical strength and the ability to cast powerful spells is somewhat problematic. Josh has stated explicitly that "realism" just wasn't a priority for the design of the attributes, but rather he was focused on making the mechanical benefits of each attribute clear, and making a wide variety of attribute allocations viable for each class. I think, though, that more attention to how the attributes work in combat vs how they work in dialogue and scripted interactions was warranted.

That said, Might is really the only weakness in the attribute system, as far as out-of-combat stuff goes. The other attributes are pretty clear. I think people also forget that D&D suffers the exact same problem. Wisdom, as a single attribute, is complete nonsense. It conflates perception, willpower, and proficiency in an incoherent and poorly defined set of fields (e.g., why is Heal a Wisdom skill in 3.x? Other than the expectation that Clerics will take it?). Depending on the edition, Charisma is also pretty much nonsense, conflating charm and some sort of "strength of character" that overlaps with Wisdom in weird ways. I think people are just more accepting of D&D's quirky attributes out of familiarity.
I agree that there are some issues with the traditional D&D system, but I don't think they are as severe as the Might thing because the meanings aren't as diametrically opposed as physical and mental strength can be. They conflate concepts, but not ones which are at best completely unrelated, and at worst in opposition.
 
I agree that abstracting away from typical physical attributes for stats comes with some issues. When an attribute means something completely different from one class to the next, how do you get a good sense of what your character actually is in an empirical sense? Might on a wizard vs a fighter is the clearest example.

Not sure how I feel about it, but considering how one dimensional the attribute systems of almost every CRPG are I'm totally open minded about how it plays out in the game. The more interesting choices the better.

Can't this problem be solved by using Skills more often? As skills are supposed to be learned where attributes are supposedly innate. An Athletics skill check (modified by your innate bonuses which could differ from class to class) would solve your Might Wizard being good at Arm Wrestling problem.

This would then push most of the interactions in the world to skill based ones rather than attribute based meaning leveling up and taking new points in skills would have a much more drastic effect on gameplay. This is sort of how most of my Pen & Paper D&D sessions ended up when we weren't in combat. Everything was some sort of skills check.
 
God damn it, someone banned me (god only knows why, I've only been posting on this thread!) and nearly invalidated my hype train ticket!!

Where's the OT?

Also, I might have an extra Hero's edition key. Will think of somehting to give it away.
 
Off the top of my head, I would have preferred:

1. Fold MIG and CON into a single stat that governs health, endurance, and raw physical damage.

2. Give Dexterity some control over endurance (as an abstraction of having a well-trained, lithe body).

3. Have Perception affect Accuracy.

4. Have Intelligence affect Duration.

5. Have Resolve affect AoE.

6. And have the three mental stats, PIR, each contribute to mental/psychic/magical damage.

I'm sure this throws up all sort of quirks and balance issues I haven't considered, but it also just seems more intuitive as to what governs what, and which attributes tend to suit a given class. It might overpower the MIG/CON stat, but you can undercut that by parcelling some of the endurance stuff elsewhere, and anyway casters and supports don't really need it.
 
Still wondering if anyone will be willing to share their PDF of the Guidebook if I show them proof of my purchase of the physical edition? I'd rather go semi-legitimate than go crawling through torrent-sites tomorrow morning so I can read it on my breaks at work.
 
Still wondering if anyone will be willing to share their PDF of the Guidebook if I show them proof of my purchase of the physical edition? I'd rather go semi-legitimate than go crawling through torrent-sites tomorrow morning so I can read it on my breaks at work.

I don't think anyone has it yet. I've go tthe physical one, but the digital one isn't avilable on the backer portal as of now, and Steam has everything encrypted including the digital goodies.
 
I agree that there are some issues with the traditional D&D system, but I don't think they are as severe as the Might thing because the meanings aren't as diametrically opposed as physical and mental strength can be.

Physical and mental strength aren't diametrically opposed. Arguably they're more related than perception and willpower (which I would consider to be completely and utterly unrelated) because at least they're both often the result of the same kind of discipline (think warrior monks and whatnot). I really think it's just a matter of familiarity.

Not to say you couldn't have an attribute system that's more coherent than either D&D or PoE (you really, really could), but I don't think PoE compares unfavorably to D&D in that regard, if you take a step back and really look at it.
 
Completely unrelated. Meet my wizard:
6Qq0fB9.png


I'll name him Nanoc. Yeah, that's perfect.

God damn it, someone banned me (god only knows why, I've only been posting on this thread!) and nearly invalidated my hype train ticket!!

Where's the OT?

Also, I might have an extra Hero's edition key. Will think of somehting to give it away.
Not to derail too much, but I'm pretty sure it was DAI-related.

DAI: not even once.
 
By the way, does anyone know why the Mac download is almost 90% larger than the Windows download (both on Steam). I've thought about it and I really can't come up with any sane reason.
 
By the way, does anyone know why the Mac download is almost 90% larger than the Windows download (both on Steam). I've thought about it and I really can't come up with any sane reason.

Maybe Steam's compression format isn't compatible with Apple's file system.
 
I don't think anyone has it yet. I've go tthe physical one, but the digital one isn't avilable on the backer portal as of now, and Steam has everything encrypted including the digital goodies.

Aye, just wanting to arrange it beforehand given potential time-zone differences etc. so I can send them the proof-of-receipt-image now and they can email me a copy when it's out. :)
 
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