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Bloodborne |OT+++| ...and so the Nightly Hunt continues

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PuMa said:
Well, that's not what I said at all...
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You said it makes the game easier which is false. Just because one option involves mindlessly grinding for a few minutes doesn't mean it's harder. It's simply a waste of time which is why they came up with the Estus system to begin with.
 
Ferrio said:
No it doesn't make it easier. Getting your flasks refilled auto vs going to grind vials are no different in difficulty. No one finds getting vials difficult, it's just time consuming and boring and filled with many load screens.
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No where did I say that finding vials was difficult.

The_Darkest_Red said:
You said it makes the game easier which is false. Just because one option involves mindlessly grinding for a few minutes doesn't mean it's harder. It's simply a waste of time which is why they came up with the Estus system to begin with.
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Again, you're missing what I said entirely. There's an inherent challenge in being able to completely run out of a finite resource. Estus flasks are freely replenish-able.


Either way, people need to drop this stupid argument.

"Yay, some people like the system!"
"Yaaaay, some people don't!"

I'd just rather get back to playing.
 
To be honest, the blood vials mostly seem like Miyazaki saying "make it like Demon's Souls, to evoke the same feeling" as with many other aspects such as the way lamps are used and the Hunter's Dream.

Personally, I'd be fine with the game replenishing five vials automatically upon respawn if the storage locker is depleted.
 
ISee said:
You do not necessary need to beat the very last lower ailing loran dungeon to get the trophy... you just need the ritual blood (5) out of there or out of the isz chalice dungeon (5), afiak.
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Thanks, Ill check it out later. I know I have like 15 blood ritual(5) from farming
 
Lostconfused said:
How is that different from you've ran out of flasks and can never beat this boss?
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You are missing my point by a wide mile. You never run out of flasks ever. You use them up in the fight, sure, exactly the same as the vial system. The "new" thing with vials is the possibility that the game will gently tell you "hey, maybe you can't handle this boss right now" by forcing you to disengage and grind out more vials, which is also a suggestion to go explore elsewhere. That never happens with flasks because you always respawn with some flasks.
 
Wynnebeck said:
No I didn't miss the conversation. People are trying to make the blood vials out to be this evil mechanic when in reality, the "shield" of Bloodborne is the Blood Vials. Knowing how vital they are to getting around the game and staying alive, I would think people would see their usefulness instead of saying they are an unneeded mechanic that is a waste of time. Different strokes.

As for you, I seem to recall you saying the game was the easiest of all the Souls games, so I can't imagine why you'd be taken aback by my comment.
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Yeah you did miss the conversation. Or at least you didn't understand it. Otherwise you wouldn't of just completely misframed what the argument is.
 
Wynnebeck said:
Are people seriously complaining about fucking blood vials of all things? Good grief. Git gud and don't waste them and you wouldn't be bitching about having to go somewhere to grab more. Or stock 99 of them so you don't have to keep going back and forth. Just a thought.

Since I don't know where to fucking go, I went back to Grand Cathedral and killed E
ileen
. Now I have the
Crow
Set and thinking of getting the Blades of Mercy, but not sure yet. Are they any good?
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They're great if you're going for Skill/Arcane.

My main character is like 38 VIT, 31 END, 50 Skill and 25 Arcane, IIRC.
 
Heel said:
I'm with you, especially early in the game when stocking up on a surplus of vials isn't trivial.

Later in the game there's opportunity to do very few "runs" and end up with enough vial drops and echoes to get dozens of vials very quickly. But yeah, that's still busy work.

In the end though, do I want a completely streamlined experience with this style of game? I actually appreciate it for its obtuseness and archaic game design. It's a very unique experience in this day and age, and I'd hate for it to lose its weird "charm" so to speak by polishing away every rough edge it has.
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The one time I had to farm for vials I was already late in the game and I simply started in the Central Yharnam lamp and cut through everything until I got to FatherG's lamp. Only did it once, used the echoes earned to buy more at the shop, and it was kind of fun revisiting an area that once proved difficult. I didn't consider it menial or tedious. To each his own I guess.
 
Vials are a problem for me for sure. They're a huge bottleneck if you are bad. Sure, I'm trying to get gud, but most of my play time is farming for them. Sure, I get to practice fighting mobs, but I'd like to focus on progression.

I'm talking 10-15 hours of vial farming alone and I'm at VA. I beat BSB.
 
Jonm1010 said:
But as you say, they are easy to get for most. The only people it affects are people that are struggling. For everyone else it just adds a layer of tediousness. So it hurts struggling players and forces them to spend time they could spend learning the mechanics and enemy tendencies to grind vials. For everyone else it's just a unnecessary time waster.

If you are going to go the route you speak of then the game should of limited vials more and scaled their cost and such as the game progressed. Balanced the game differently. But then that would compound the issue with bad or struggling players.

To me there just isn't any real good argument I can come up with to defend this system over alternatives. The game is still my favorite game in years. In fact the overall package is my favorite souls game so far, this and the loading times are my only gripe in a otherwise flawless game to me.
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I respect your opinion and see why people don't like blood vials. I said I see the problem but it doesn't ruin the game for me, same as your last sentence.
 
callmeJackz said:
Welp...reached my mental limit... GGs GAF, the game was fun while it lasted......

KGkAIAi.jpg
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Just run and dont look back.
 
Fhtagn said:
You are missing my point by a wide mile. You never run out of flasks ever. You use them up in the fight, sure, exactly the same as the vial system. The "new" thing with vials is the possibility that the game will gently tell you "hey, maybe you can't handle this boss right now" by forcing you to disengage and grind out more vials, which is also a suggestion to go explore elsewhere. That never happens with flasks because you always respawn with some flasks.
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I think this is a fairly decent point, but if that is the thinking behind the decision it is a shame that they discourage players from stubbornly trying to beat bosses that they want to keep fighting. It's not fun when you get a boss down to 5% health on your 10th attempt, die, and come back with 4 vials or whatever.
 
Jonm1010 said:
It's like a certain group of posters are just talking past everyone's points. The difficulty or ease of getting vials is not the core issue. It is that at its core it is a mechanic that adds nothing of value to the core experience. For all the steps forward bloodborne takes over its predecessors. This is an area it doesn't.

It the counter to the tediousness argument is that they are easy to get, then the counter to that is simply then what is the point of having them be finite in the first place? For people good at the game it adds a slight deviation from enjoying the core game to replenish. For those having rough patches it adds a level of grinding that takes away from better uses of time.

No matter the level of tediousness, you are agreeing that it exists. The question is now what is the justification for it? And I'm struggling to find a good justification in the face of the alternative system we've been given in past games.
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The point is, it makes you work for something you need, and punishes you for wasting resources or playing badly. Go farm vials and bullets cause you died 8 times on that boss. You obviously need the practice.
 
super-famicom said:
For ~20k in about a minute: Go to
Lecture Hall, first floor. A classroom will have a ton of enemies inside. Go through the door from the main hallway and back out. They will all funnel through the door and you can pick them off. With two Moon Runes equipped, you'll get about 20k total. Each enemy also has a chance to drop 3 bullets, so you can stock up on those and not buy them. Use a Bold Hunter's Mark to warp back to the lamp and repeat.
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Nice! thanks
 
The_Darkest_Red said:
I think this is a fairly decent point, but if that is the thinking behind the decision it is a shame that they discourage players from stubbornly trying to beat bosses that they want to keep fighting. It's not fun when you get a boss down to 5% health on your 10th attempt, die, and come back with 4 vials or whatever.
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Yeah, I am pro-flask system but i can see this aspect as positive for some people even if it doesn't gell with my playing style.
 
NeuAscension said:
The point is, it makes you work for something you need, and punishes you for wasting resources or playing badly. Go farm vials and bullets cause you died 8 times on that boss.
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It feels odd to see this type of design after the introduction of the Estus system, though. In most areas Bloodborne is more streamlined than the Souls games but in this particular area it's a step back for some reason.
 
Jonm1010 said:
Yeah you did miss the conversation. Or at least you didn't understand it. Otherwise you wouldn't of just completely misframed what the argument is.
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You say this and yet you just made a post saying that having to go and get Vials if you run out is adding a layer of tedium to the game. I feel this is not true and is just an indication of better management in your fighting, hence the "git gud" comment.
 
Jonm1010 said:
The argument isn't that it takes a super long time, it's that it is unnecessary and adds nothing of value to the game. The fact that it is so easy, just slightly tedious, speaks to my point. Switch to a automatic replenishment system and the only thing that changes in the game is no longer having to farm or waste time buying vials. You aren't losing anything of value.
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Yeah, i'm fine with the vials system, but i cant deny that it would be better to have a system which automatically replenishes. If you took BB and popped the estus flask system back in, nothing would change except people wouldnt have to occasionally grind for vials.

I dont think it's a bad or bothersome grind, but it could easily be avoided bu this decision.
 
Doing the defiled dungeon, anything that doesn't one shot you will two shot you. You need to heal after taking a hit.

Blood Vials go quickly.
 
Hey GAF, can we talk about something else?

What's your favorite Attire and do you wear it for stats or fashion?
Mine is Cainhurst for most of the game (it's good and looks badass) with Choir and Church sets in certain locations.
 
Incitio said:
I respect your opinion and see why people don't like blood vials. I said I see the problem but it doesn't ruin the game for me, same as your last sentence.
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It doesn't ruin anything for me either. I honesty don't mind grinding but I just stepped back as I am finishing the game and came to realize what I feel are the systems shortcomings in its current form.
 
And honestly the vial system wouldn't be half as bad if the laterns worked differently and the load times didn't suck balls. Those just make it even easier to show how bad of a design it is.
 
The_Darkest_Red said:
It feels odd to see this type of design after the introduction of the Estus system, though. In most areas Bloodborne is more streamlined than the Souls games but in this particular area it's a step back for some reason.
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I'm not opposed to either. They both serve the same purpose, but now you can hold 20 "flasks", but no lifegems, but you have to farm them. Balance doesn't seem too off to me.
 
I feel like the vial system shows it's problems in the deeper chalice dungeons more than the main game. I didn't really have a problem with the system in the main game. I ran out at the start while I was still learning the mechanics, but late game I didn't really.

The higher chalice dungeons, even the normal enemies can force you to use vials because they do a lot of damage. Especially in the defiled ones. Then there's the issue that I don't feel they're that fun to explore anyway due to dull, repetitive designs. This means you focus on the bosses because they're the more fun parts. They're pretty tough, way tougher than anything the main game will offer you unless you're on NG++ or something(not sure how scaling works past NG+). Thus you'll use a lot of vials. You won't gain any because there no enemies to kill on the run to the boss, and you end up going somewhere to farm echoes or vials because you run out. It adds no challenge, it just adds easy and repetitive busy work which you have to do in between the challenge.
 
NeuAscension said:
The point is, it makes you work for something you need, and punishes you for wasting resources or playing badly. Go farm vials and bullets cause you died 8 times on that boss. You obviously need the practice.
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This is how I saw it before reading the complaints in this thread. I just took an hour or so and farmed max vials so I didn't have to worry about it.
 
NeuAscension said:
I'm not opposed to either. They both serve the same purpose, but now you can hold 20 "flasks", but no lifegems, but you have to farm them. Balance doesn't seem too off to me.
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I thought lifegems were stupid. I much prefer the elegant and simple Estus system from Dark Souls I. It felt perfect to me.

Okay, I'm done I promise! Like I said it's really not a big deal, I am absolutely loving the game so far.
 
Ferrio said:
And honestly the vial system wouldn't be half as bad if the laterns worked differently and the load times didn't suck balls. Those just make it even easier to show how bad of a design it is.
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I kind of wish they did it like they did in Demon's Souls, but with limits on how many vials you can carry that replenish your health fully. I think that would have made it much more tolerable.
 
Incitio said:
Hey GAF, can we talk about something else?

What's your favorite Attire and do you wear it for stats or fashion?
Mine is Cainhurst for most of the game (it's good and looks badass) with Choir and Church sets in certain locations.
Click to expand...
Knights attire with executioner gaunlets and black church trousers with top hat for PvP. Bone Ash set for everything else.
 
Wynnebeck said:
You say this and yet you just made a post saying that having to go and get Vials if you run out is adding a layer of tedium to the game. I feel this is not true and is just an indication of better management in your fighting, hence the "git gud" comment.
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Because it is. Tedious as in tiresome or monotonous. Even if the monotony is very low to the point it doesn't bother you, it doesn't diminish that it is in fact a layer of tediousness that adds nothing of value to the core experience. All having a finite system in this game does is create issues for lower tiered players and adds a layer of wasted time replenishing stock for all players. Some more then others.

"Git Good" doesn't eradicate that. Nor is it an actual counterpoint of any value. It's a snarky throwaway comment that adds nothing.

Replacing the vial system with a automatic replenishment system literally changes nothing about the core game except to eliminate a grinding mechanic that just wastes time.
 
Ferrio said:
Vials raising in price was a dick move too.
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So you think 160 per vials is okay when you gain, literally, 50k per minute in NG+?

The price increase is fine! When it originally jumps from 160 to 360, it hurts though (around Vicar Amelia).
 
The loading times are bad, and the ability to not travel between lamps was an odd choice given that they are long. I have an SSD so i don't notice it as bad. My avg load times are about 25 seconds or so.
 
I really don't mind the vial farming. Honestly, in Central Yharnam you can get 20 vials in <5 mins running through just the big enemies who drop guaranteed 2-4 vials.

Takes me maybe 20-30 mins to farm 20 vials + 99 stock. Really, the only thing that makes it annoying is not being able to just sit at the lamp to respawn enemies (like you could in Dark Souls) and instead having to endure 2 loads...like WTF.
 
Jonm1010 said:
Replacing the vial system with a automatic replenishment system literally changes nothing about the core game except to eliminate a grinding mechanic that just wastes time.
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It's risk/reward just like other aspects of the game. You die too much or you waste too many vials you gotta spend time or currency getting more.
 
Tevious said:
I prefer the Dark Souls 2 system with both flasks and consumables. Would be nice to have a flask like healing system, even if you only got like 5 of them.

If you're at a really tough boss that you know you're going to have problems with keeping stock up on vials, here's one thing you can do to avoid farming: Copy your save data after you have full stock on vials/bullets to the cloud or a usb. If you die too much and run out of vials, just copy your save data back to the PS4 and overwrite it.
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In regards to the blood vial dilemma, this post right here nailed it for me.
 
Phat Michael said:
Ok 2 areas that will stop me doing ng+. Unseen village and forbidden woods. Hated both of those.

I defeated the one reborn, should I next go up the stars to the nightmare or get captured by the monster in the ceiling and go to the nightmare lecture Hall place that way first?
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Hopefully people can stop talking about vials and answer this.
 
Incitio said:
Hey GAF, can we talk about something else?

What's your favorite Attire and do you wear it for stats or fashion?
Mine is Cainhurst for most of the game (it's good and looks badass) with Choir and Church sets in certain locations.
Click to expand...

Charred set with gascoignes hat. Badass.
 
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