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Destiny House of Wolves will Have no New Raid

GhaleonEB said:
Acknowledging that doing both takes time and resources constitutes a free pass? This is a strawman argument, which disregards not only the rest of my post but every other post in the thread making a similar set of points. Both would be great. Obviously, both takes more time and resources.
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Of course they take time and resources. That's stating the obvious. I assumed your point was that Bungie didn't actually have the time or resources to do a raid, which I question because they've reused old assets almost exclusively so far and have an enormous development team. This isn't a small outfit operating out of a garage. Destiny has sold over 10m copies so far. What else is Bungie working on, then? And Bungie themselves didn't say that they didn't have the time or resources, so what are you basing that assertion on?

You talk about the game having many activity types, but most of those activity types use the exact same assets and don't really include any additional story. I don't think they are spreading themselves too thinly in this respect. I would agree if each activity type were standalone game types that featured unique content, but they aren't.
 
Homeboyd said:
I mean, if I recall, they made their money back pretty quickly after launch. Like.. in a day. So it seems pretty sound.
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They might have made their money back on what they developed, but have they made enough money to deliver the game people were expecting?

I think that's the thing that's at the back of my mind, here. They have a sustainable business model in principle, but it's very much dependent on being percieved as living up to the promises, at least sufficiently well. Those initial sales were driven by hype, by good initial word-of-mouth, by excellent advertising. They're not necessarily reflective of the game that exists now.

The problem, of course, is that the echo chamber of the Internet does tend to make a lot of things sound far worse than they actually are. The impression I get is that there's a fair amount of buyer's remorse around Destiny, the perception that the game purchasers recieved is not the game that was sold to them. Which is perhaps okay for now - that cash is in the bank - but when the next paid content not covered by the expansion pass comes out, it's going to be an interesting situation. Which suggests that Comet, as the flagship for that phase of the game, needs to try to achieve a similar level of prelaunch promotion.

As a business case, I'm finding this fascinating. And I'm intrigued to see where it goes.
 
That 20% trophy stat is a crap thing to throw around - less people have maxed out their subclass (15-19%) than have completed a raid. All these stats tell us is that a lot of people play the game and stop playing before they see end-game content, not that people are reaching end-game and then opting NOT to raid.
 
benicillin said:
That 20% trophy stat is a crap thing to throw around - less people have maxed out their subclass (15-19%) than have completed a raid. All these stats tell us is that a lot of people play the game and stop playing before they see end-game content, not that people are reaching end-game and then opting NOT to raid.
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Absolutely agree.
 
mclem said:
Which is perhaps okay for now - that cash is in the bank - but when the next paid content not covered by the expansion pass comes out, it's going to be an interesting situation. Which suggests that Comet, as the flagship for that phase of the game, needs to try to achieve a similar level of prelaunch promotion.
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Honestly as soon as I read Bungie's comments that there would be no raid now, but one later, this is exactly what I thought - that they felt they had to beef up Comet to get people to spend money again. I bet there are two raids in Comet - the one that should have been in Wolves, and the one planned all along for Comet. People will rejoice (myself included) and praise Bungie for all the content they will provide.
 
mclem said:
They might have made their money back on what they developed, but have they made enough money to deliver the game people were expecting?
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I personally would say no (in terms of Bungie not delivering what I was expecting). Even I was expecting much more content, better story (or even one to begin with), better pvp, etc etc etc

I think the reception of this DLC will say a lot. Though a lot of people here are doubting its success due to the lack of a raid, I'm thinking, if the PoE is what I think it is, a lot more people will be interested in this DLC than one that offered a raid instead. Yes, of course, people on a gaming forum are at one end of the spectrum and would prefer the higher-end/hardcore content stuff, but I believe we're the minority.

I'm very much looking forward to finding out what this DLC actually contains.
 
Homeboyd said:
Yeah but you're either choosing to pay for the content in the DLC, like every other game, or choosing to avoid it. The DLC doesn't say "also includes periodic patches, updates, etc between now and the next DLC."

If you look at it that way, you could say you're paying a sub by buying the actual game. If the game costs $60 and the next game comes out a year from now, you could just as easily say "well I paid $60, but really it was $5/mo until the next game came out... it's the same as a sub." I don't think that's a fair comparison.
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It may not be fair, but that's exactly how I see games. That's why you'll never catch me buying a game that has a yearly release with incremental changes.
 
mclem said:
They might have made their money back on what they developed, but have they made enough money to deliver the game people were expecting?
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Impossible to do, everyone had their own idea what they wanted the game to be

Somehow people got in their head (even after playing the alpha and beta) that they were getting some warcraft/borderlands/diablo/mass effect/halo hybrid.

Expectations were way too damn high
 
commish said:
Honestly as soon as I read Bungie's comments that there would be no raid now, but one later, this is exactly what I thought - that they felt they had to beef up Comet to get people to spend money again. I bet there are two raids in Comet - the one that should have been in Wolves, and the one planned all along for Comet. People will rejoice (myself included) and praise Bungie for all the content they will provide.
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I'm not sure that there is another raid besides the Comet one. My impression is that this arena was originally a raid and then converted to an arena once feedback from the raids started coming in. People found raids inaccessible because of the 6 man requirement, there was a lot of cheese, and they are hard to maintain. After learning from The Dark Below they seemingly delayed House of Wolves to rethink their end game content and came up with a modified version of the raid they were working on. The other raid is probably the one that was planned for Comet from the get go.
 
lt519 said:
I'm not sure that there is another raid besides the Comet one. My impression is that this arena was originally a raid and then converted to an arena once feedback from the raids started coming in. People found raids inaccessible because of the 6 man requirement, there was a lot of cheese, and they are hard to maintain.
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In that scenario, wouldn't it just be much easier to convert it into a more accessible raid?
 
Waylon Drums said:
Why?
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I am also VERY happy about this. It means they focused their major efforts on not a new Raid for fewer people to play, but an entire new end-game feature for more people to play including myself. Also something that should be easily expandable through content-patches and events, something that a Raid doesn't support by current design.

I do feel for those who have put together 6 person groups over the months that will miss gaming together as a full team... that part indeed sucks. I hope they quickly add a higher difficulty version of this mode and 6 player support.

But locking highest tier gear behind non-matchmaking modes is really holding the game back. This new mode MUST support match-making to truly succeed in saving the game.

And I do believe that "saving the game" is not a stretch here... they likely acknowledged that relying on the Raids to carry the game is indeed what is killing it. People have literally been replaying the same two long missions for months.
 
commish said:
Of course they take time and resources. That's stating the obvious. I assumed your point was that Bungie didn't actually have the time or resources to do a raid, which I question because they've reused old assets almost exclusively so far and have an enormous development team. This isn't a small outfit operating out of a garage. Destiny has sold over 10m copies so far. What else is Bungie working on, then? And Bungie themselves didn't say that they didn't have the time or resources, so what are you basing that assertion on?
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I thought that was obvious. :p

It is likely that Bungie is currently split between the sustain team (smallish), HoW team (which is probably wrapping up by now), Comet, and Destiny 2. HoW is looking to be larger than TDB was, and Comet is going to be much larger than both. Shifting resources from one will cost the other. Even a large team does not have unlimited resources.

You talk about the game having many activity types, but most of those activity types use the exact same assets and don't really include any additional story. I don't think they are spreading themselves too thinly in this respect. I would agree if each activity type were standalone game types that featured unique content, but they aren't.
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To be clear, I was saying each activity type does not have enough content within them: we have raids, but at only 2, need more. We have strikes, but 8 (6 on Xbox platforms) is not enough. I also criticized The Dark Below for having far too little unique new territory - just a bit of new space bolted onto the strikes and missions. HoW needs to do much better in this regard. As you said, Bungie is a big team. While I'm fine with making better / different use of existing play spaces, it's entirely reasonable to expect new ones in the DLC.

As for the Prison of Elders. On the one hand, adding a new activity type just adds yet another part of Destiny to feed, and risks spreading Destiny out even more thinly. On the other, Prison of Elders will open up the endgame to a much larger audience and scratch a totally different itch than a raid does. So while I'd like a raid, I'm also happy with the Prison of Elders (assuming, of course, that it is as good as I'm hoping it will be).
 
benicillin said:
That 20% trophy stat is a crap thing to throw around - less people have maxed out their subclass (15-19%) than have completed a raid. All these stats tell us is that a lot of people play the game and stop playing before they see end-game content, not that people are reaching end-game and then opting NOT to raid.
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There's a ton of people out there who play Destiny who've never done a raid because they can't get 5 other people to do it with them. That's the highest barrier of entry, in combination with many other things gear/level wise. Only needing 2 more people is going to be huge to get those players on board and able to participate in this new mode. It seems to me like it's an attempt to appeal to both the hardcore player base, and the more casual players so that the entry is much lower but the chance to actually succeed is more difficult. Which is why people should reserve judgment until we actually see what Prison of Elders entails.
 
PrivateWHudson said:
It may not be fair, but that's exactly how I see games. That's why you'll never catch me buying a game that has a yearly release with incremental changes.
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Well you can say the same about a 2 year dev time as well, just with a $2.50/mo sub.

My point is; you're paying for the content advertised at launch whether it's DLC or the full game. Quality of life updates, imo, should absolutely be top priority in sustaining the game and keeping a healthy population.. but you can't directly compare updates/patches/etc for a game that charges full price for the game itself AND a monthly sub to a game that only charges for the game and does not charge a monthly sub. The quality and consistency of content/updates delivered in general are going to vary significantly.
 
Just learned about this and wow, I sure feel kinda ripped-off on my Season Pass. :/
Destiny I kinda loved playing you, but Bungie keeps bringing me down.

I will certainly NOT buy Destiny 2 at this point.
 
hydruxo said:
There's a ton of people out there who play Destiny who've never done a raid because they can't get 5 other people to do it with them. That's the highest barrier of entry, in combination with many other things gear/level wise. Only needing 2 more people is going to be huge to get those players on board and able to participate in this new mode. It seems to me like it's an attempt to appeal to both the hardcore player base, and the more casual players so that the entry is much lower but the chance to actually succeed is more difficult. Which is why people should reserve judgment until we actually see what Prison of Elders entails.
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I never said there wasn't, I just said that saying "only 20% of players would care about more raids anyway" because of a trophy statistic is dumb when obviously only 15-25% of players overall have gotten to any kind of end-game whatsoever, according to the statistics on maxing out a character subclass (which you would probably hit long before you decided to raid.)
 
mclem said:
In that scenario, wouldn't it just be much easier to convert it into a more accessible raid?
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They could call the arena a raid and people wouldn't be raging right now. I think the big thing is it is now 3 people and it's obvious they've scaled back their ambitions and aren't comfortable classifying it as a raid because it isn't as big or mechanical as their other raids. It was probably originally an arena with raid mechanics and is now just a horde mode that has been scaled back. No funky things like picking up a sword/chalice or shields. Just straight fighting. This is their "more accessible raid," they just won't call it one because people will associate the next raid with scaled back content. But you know, just my assumptions based on the info that leaked. The leaked info did identify a three person version of this "raid" but what happened to the 6 person content. And they aren't dumb, they are very clearly going out of their way to not declare it a raid so as not to dilute their "raid brand."
 
Z3M0G said:
I am also VERY happy about this. It means they focused their major efforts on not a new Raid for fewer people to play, but an entire new end-game feature for more people to play including myself. Also something that should be easily expandable through content-patches and events, something that a Raid doesn't support by current design.

I do feel for those who have put together 6 person groups over the months that will miss gaming together as a full team... that part indeed sucks. I hope they quickly add a higher difficulty version of this mode and 6 player support.

But locking highest tier gear behind non-matchmaking modes is really holding the game back. This new mode MUST support match-making to truly succeed in saving the game.

And I do believe that "saving the game" is not a stretch here... they likely acknowledged that relying on the Raids to carry the game is indeed what is killing it. People have literally been replaying the same two long missions for months.
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Ehhhh, you're putting a lot of faith into a group of people who don't seem to deserve it. I have a sinking feeling that this "new mode" is going to be shit...because I've been conditioned by these developers to not expect much.
 
Homeboyd said:
Well you can say the same about a 2 year dev time as well, just with a $2.50/mo sub.

My point is; you're paying for the content advertised at launch whether it's DLC or the full game. Quality of life updates, imo, should absolutely be top priority in sustaining the game and keeping a healthy population.. but you can't directly compare updates/patches/etc for a game that charges full price for the game itself AND a monthly sub to a game that only charges for the game and does not charge a monthly sub. The quality and consistency of content/updates delivered in general are going to vary significantly.
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We'll probably just go round and round, but to answer the question... most of the time, an every other year release is sizable enough to judge on it's own merits and I'd consider it a new game with a familiar setting.

I'm sure a lot of value is lost on me since I don't play much PvP, and a big part of the DLC is PvP maps and this Trial thing. I'm not really complaining as much as I just want to put out there that I think the whole "idea" of Destiny would be better received if they (Bungie) looked at DLC revenue as a sub, and did more with the current assets between DLC's.
 
Lol Bungie is on a roll

463.gif
 
TDB was already shit, i only play Iron Banner nowadays and I hate how its maps aren't integrated. 2 map playlists, really?

This could've been the best expansion actually, if it had Arena + a handful of new crucible maps. Osiris is only on Burning shrine right? I'd rather play Salvage or 2 on 2.
 
"Destiny pulled a Peter Molyneux."

Brought to you all by the Bungie Forums. Seriously, I'm never going to buy anything in advance again. No more preorders and no more season pass for any game. I believed in Bungie. Not anymore.
 
Telling fans "no Raid, more details later" is a really poor way to communicate to the players that actually care to read Bungie's updates.

Armchair PR guy and all, but it seems smarter to follow up the "no Raid" statement with actual meaty details about what it is being replaced with this time around. Pics, short video of gameplay, developer talk about why it's cool, SOMETHING other than the insulting "check back in the coming weeks for details" comments that have grown so tiresome since this game has come out.

I'm quite sure some folks at Bungie have thought the same thing; why this information is being purposefully withheld is just frustrating for almost everyone who cares.
 
The Lamonster said:
This arena is sounding a little like Nephalem Rifts from Diablo 3, which is awesome.
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VERY awesome.

I've been saying since the day I quit that this is exactly what Destiny needs.

I hope it uses lots of randomly selected locations from the story missions, strikes, hell even the Raids (though that would be unlikely).

Waylon Drums said:
Ehhhh, you're putting a lot of faith into a group of people who don't seem to deserve it. I have a sinking feeling that this "new mode" is going to be shit...because I've been conditioned by these developers to not expect much.
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It's possibly exactly what I've been asking/hoping for for months... I can only be excited until I know more to either confirm or debunk my expectations.
 
Having trouble understanding how horde mode would be substantially different at its core from everything else in this game in PvE. Its all one big horde mode already.
 
squidhands said:
Telling fans "no Raid, more details later" is a really poor way to communicate to the players that actually care to read Bungie's updates.

Armchair PR guy and all, but it seems smarter to follow up the "no Raid" statement with actual meaty details about what it is being replaced with this time around. Pics, short video of gameplay, developer talk about why it's cool, SOMETHING other than the insulting "check back in the coming weeks for details" comments that have grown so tiresome since this game has come out.

I'm quite sure some folks at Bungie have thought the same thing; why this information is being purposefully withheld is just frustrating for almost everyone who cares.
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Aye. And in particular, given the long timeline for revealing stuff contained in the HoW, the Prison of Elders isn't set to be revealed until shortly before release. Very frustrating - it should have been first up on deck.
 
I'll always believe that the Prison of Elders was supposed to be a raid, but for whatever reason (not being fun?) they decided to repurpose the already-created levels into a horde arena.
 
DeviantBoi said:
I'll always believe that the Prison of Elders was supposed to be a raid, but for whatever reason (not being fun?) they decided to repurpose the already-created levels into a horde arena.
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maybe it will be a bit like that latest Dredd movie. start at the ground floor and work your way up :P
 
Liquidsnake said:
Thats it?

Just 10 pages?

Are we over it now?

ibgUrMfxQaxFlY.gif
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It still sucks, but guess we'll have to see what the arena is like.

What I enjoyed most about the VoG was how it required new sets of tactics for each area. Sure, there was some cheesing, but there was variety in the gameplay.

An arena sounds more prone to finding a single spot (or a few) from which you can cheese. It would be cool if the arena was shape-shifting or something like that.
 
R0ckman said:
Having trouble understanding how horde mode would be substantially different at its core from everything else in this game in PvE. Its all one big horde mode already.
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In theory, it could feature some randomization and finally an unexpected thing could happen somewhere in the game.
 
I love how we all are just assuming it's a horde mode even though nothing/zero/nada/zilch has been gleaned otherwise.

It will be interesting to see what data mining happens now that the groundwork patch is out.

I honestly don't think Arena means horde mode. I think it means more like a boss challenge mode. That image they had on the Microsoft made it look like they were opening a cell in the prison of elders and fighting a big bad ass. So I envision it as a series of encounters, possibly from a random selection that all have different modifiers that are possibly random and it ends with a static boss fight with possibly more random factors.

I base this all off the comment of variation and replayability. This could all possibly be done with procedural generation. Who the hell knows.

So can we stop calling it a horde mode until we actually know what it is?
 
tebunker said:
So can we stop calling it a horde mode until we actually know what it is?
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Agreed to the 1000%. Never seen so many people jump ship from a trailer and a statement from Bungie before they revealed anything substantial of what we will see in HoW.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Aye. And in particular, given the long timeline for revealing stuff contained in the HoW, the Prison of Elders isn't set to be revealed until shortly before release. Very frustrating - it should have been first up on deck.
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I guess some of it has to do with other sites having exclusive rights to the details or something but, if so, damn do I hate that stuff. Just don't say anything if that's the case. Patch notes would have held us over until next week, datamining on reddit would have increased speculation and talk of what's (not) to come, etc. I'm regularly surprised how poor communication has been regarding Destiny information.
 
tebunker said:
I honestly don't think Arena means horde mode. I think it means more like a boss challenge mode.
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There aren't enough bosses in the game to really make a substantial boss rush mode.....plus so many of the existing bosses are highly dependent on level geometry to frame the fight. Simply transplanting them into an arena with less distinctive architecture may not work.

Moreover though, who really wants a boss rush? None of the raid bosses would really work and most of the strike bosses suck donkey balls. Why would I get excited over a mode where a 5 minute Phogoth fight gets followed up by a 5 minute Valus T'Auric fight??
 
border said:
There aren't enough bosses in the game to really make a substantial boss rush mode.....plus so many of the existing bosses are highly dependent on level geometry to frame the fight. Simply transplanting them into an arena with less distinctive architecture may not work.

Moreover though, who really wants a boss rush? None of the raid bosses would really work and most of the strike bosses suck donkey balls. Why would I get excited over a mode where a 5 minute Phogoth fight gets followed up by a 5 minute Valus T'Auric fight?
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Yeah. Personally, I'd rather have a more traditional horde mode against increasingly hard adds than a boss rush mode. Hopefully it's more than that, but still.
 
Homeboyd said:
Yeah but you're either choosing to pay for the content in the DLC, like every other game, or choosing to avoid it. The DLC doesn't say "also includes periodic patches, updates, etc between now and the next DLC."

If you look at it that way, you could say you're paying a sub by buying the actual game. If the game costs $60 and the next game comes out a year from now, you could just as easily say "well I paid $60, but really it was $5/mo until the next game came out... it's the same as a sub." I don't think that's a fair comparison.
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But most DLC does not lock you out of content from the original game. The week TDB launched, the nightfall was a TDB nightfall so people who did not purchase the DLC were locked out of content they paid for (nightfall). I haven't played in a while but when I was playing, the daily heroic missions were DLC only three times a week. So to me it is a subscription model

I still feel like locking people out of content they paid for is a shitty move and is anti consumer. If they want to have a subscription service, then they should advertise it as such. They're advertising the game as a regular $60 AAA title with paid DLC
 
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