Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

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Sendou said:
It's just an allegory. Why don't you explain to me instead why Valve doesn't deserve a cut? Is it just the mods they shouldn't get a cut from or is it games too? If just the former then why are they different?
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They are not creating the content. The steam system is already made, the workers who made it have already been paid. Charging to have use of it is like charging rent for an apartment in a building that's already made, based on wacky property rules. (This is how the world works, but it's not moral or logical and only benefits the owners).

I don't have a particular animosity towards Valve though, it's towards the system that rewards this kind of behavior. Capitalism doesn't reward you for creating something and then giving it away. If you give everything away you will starve. You must charge for it, and the more you charge the better off you'll be. Companies need to become more depraved as time goes on in order to compete/stay alive and fulfill perpetual growth.

_machine said:
As someone who is creating IPs myself, that is bullshit. IP holders deserve money (if they so will) from derivative work no matter what. Basically what you are saying is that the Elders Scrolls IP and Tools are worth nothing.
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They paid 50-60$ for the game already. Charging rent for the ability to manipulate that game is like charging someone for changing the wallpaper on Windows.

Also intellectual property is bullshit but that's another debate.
 
ashecitism said:
http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/

was linked on FP, don't know which dev this is, but is giving their opinion on this
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Whilst I would like it to address some more difficult points like Valve's capability to respond to exploitation, I really recommend everyone to read this. It addresses the points raised here constantly from a developer perspective and why a big part of actual developers and modders aren't really against the 25% cut.
 
Sendou said:
But they do. Modders are utilizing their IP. It's as simple as that. Should that cut be 50%? Well I would hope once more games start supporting paid mods naturally the ones with more generous cut get more talented modders working on them. What's the reason to be mad here? If modders think the cut is too small then I would imagine they won't make mods to be sold. If gamers for some ideological reason think that cut between parties involved is not fair (yeah I know I'm reaching here but it seems to be a concern of many people here) then they won't buy the mods.

If you don't want anyone taking a cut from your work then why not code a game ground up and sell it straight from your own site?
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You are entirely confused. The only argument for giving the game maker a cut of the mod money, is if the game was original F2P. For AAA full price titles, it is outrageous to say that Bethesda need to be rewarded for work they did not do. A mod does NOT steal any content, any assets from the game is already legally paid for by the customer who bought the copy of Skyrim. Unless and until you are saying the Mod creator is allowed to make and sell his own independent Skyrim game, without needing an original copy of the game to run, you have no right to demand a payment to Bethesda.
 
_machine said:
Yeah absolutely, I'm not contesting that the situation is perfect that it will even work in the end, but paid mods can have major benefits and we know for a fact that it can work. I'd love to delve more into the problem of current audience and market and why I'm not quite sure if the Skyrim market can quite fix itself on the platform, but unfortunately I really need to get back to work.
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I'm actually not against paying for mods. I just think they've implemented it wrong.

They should only choose the good mods (they could do a green light type thing where people vote on what they want) have mods vetted and tested and sell them in packs for compatibility. For eg. You can pay for a texture overhaul pack, a gameplay change pack, extra NPC and enemies pack... Sell them as unofficial DLC for £5 and release new packs each month.

The current situation is a fucking joke and it's just going to lead to the Workshop to selling 99% bug ridden junk.
 
What a shame. I am extremely disappointed in Valve. They were supposed to be a sentinel against these sorts of destructive practices. This is not a net positive for Skyrim users any way you might try to spin it:

- There is little protection for the content creators. We see a number of stolen mods / code being sold in the workshop. Furthermore you could argue that there is no QA and guarantee of compatibility if Skyrim is updated.

- It fragments an established modding community. There are many mods from Nexus that have been taken down because of theft concerns or to monetize them.

- Old mods are receiving updates to disable functionality or include advertisements for paid versions.

This sort of paid mod system might have worked with a new game, but what the heck were they thinking trying this out with an established game like Skyrim? Oh, right. 'Dem DLC Dollars.

EDIT: The owner of Nexus elaborated on the takedowns - there are roughly 75 mods that have been delisted (see http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12459/?). This obviously isn't "many" in comparison to the ~40k the site hosts. I don't know how popular those 75 were though. In any case, I still have concerns about the precedent this sets and how some modders have chosen to react.
 
Debut bundle (24.17$):

Bundle contains 16 items Purity, Midas Magic Gold Edition, Castle Volkihar Rebuilt, Butterfly Sword, Shezrie's Bleakden Town, Yasha sword, Firelink Implements, Sange Sword, Blazing Ringsword, Scrib Crusher, Blind Raven, Lambda Locator, Wet and Cold, Gifts of Akatosh, The Watcher Staff, Shadow Scale set.


Amazing. Just amazing. A PLAYESTED DLC, which consists of a large portion of the game (15%-30% as big as the base game in most cases) is usually 5-15$, whereas a bunch of shitty mods are 24$--equivalent to AAA games on sale.
 
Vallen Valiant said:
You are entirely confused. The only argument for giving the game maker a cut of the mod money, is if the game was original F2P. For AAA full price titles, it is outrageous to say that Bethesda need to be rewarded for work they did not do. A mod does NOT steal any content, any assets from the game is already legally paid for by the customer who bought the copy of Skyrim. Unless and until you are saying the Mod creator is allowed to make and sell his own independent Skyrim game, without needing an original copy of the game to run, you have no right to demand a payment to Bethesda.
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Of course that's not the case. When you buy a copy of pretty much any game you only receive a license that entitles you to playing it. Not making money out of any assets it might have.
 
ashecitism said:
http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/

was linked on FP, don't know which dev this is, but is giving their opinion on this
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The response reminds me of the right wingers who say sweatshop workers should be grateful because they're making pennies they otherwise wouldn't have. They tend to miss (willfully ignore) the overall point of contention, which is that there should be no private owners soaking profits at all if you really care about people being rewarded for their labor.
 
I'm just going to call a spade a spade and consider this 3rd party dlc.

I don't get the people who are defending this by saying modders deserve to be compensated, they're getting chump change for this.
 
_machine said:
Whilst I would like it to address some more difficult points like Valve's capability to respond to exploitation, I really recommend everyone to read this. It addresses the points raised here constantly from a developer perspective and why a big part of actual developers and modders aren't really against the 25% cut.
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I’m all for it. I think it’s a great idea.

A modder deserves the right to ask for money for his or her work. If the mod turns out to be bad, faulty, or overpriced, the player is under no obligation to buy it. It isn’t going to force players to buy mods, it’s going to give those players a choice - play with the paid mods or don’t.
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of course it dont force player to buy mods. Did company put a gun to your head with their new mobile transaction system? with their new first day DLC? YOU CAN VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Dont buy it if you dont like the practice and it will go away. It just give you a choice! Good company will still give you good game not riddled with micro transaction. CDPR will still provide you with free DLC!

anyone who still believes this should really start to reevaluate their views of this world.

sadly, it is not that simple.
 
Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
I don't get the people who are defending this by saying modders deserve to be compensated, they're getting chump change for this.
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They're currently getting chump change.. Then look to the Nexus and imagine each one of those endorsements is a sale.. some of those mods have 1,000,000 endorsements. Ok it may have taken 3 years and constant updates to get those 1mill endorsements, but if your mod takes off in a big way then it's going to be a nice monthly income for a while.
 
Sendou said:
Of course that's not the case. When you buy a copy of pretty much any game you only receive a license that entitles you to playing it. Not making money out of any assets it might have.
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The modders are NOT making money out of any assets. The assets are already in the customer's computer. The modders are making money from the changes they are applying, and new content they created.

Let me repeat, your argument only stands if the mod was not a mod, but was a stand-alone game. For a mod, no Bethesda asset changed hands. The only assets involved are those already paid for in the customer;s computer.
 
Sendou said:
Of course that's not the case. When you buy a copy of pretty much any game you only receive a license that entitles you to playing it. Not making money out of any assets it might have.
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Should youtubers/streamers be forced to pay companies the games they stream? Should artists on deviantart be prevented from drawing pictures of Mickey Mouse without paying rent to Disney first?

Should people even be allowed to say "Mickey Mouse" for free if it could potentially financially benefit those people and it's not their idea? Remember the Mojang Scrolls/Bathesda lawsuit?

This is the logic of "intellectual property" if it was as strictly enforced as possible, it's bizarre and obscene.
 
Angry Fork said:
The response reminds me of the right wingers who say sweatshop workers should be grateful because they're making pennies they otherwise wouldn't have. They tend to miss (willfully ignore) the overall point of contention, which is that there should be no private owners soaking profits at all if you really care about people being rewarded for their labor.
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I would be severly offended being compared to someone who accepts sweatshop labor. You are insulting someone who actually knows what goes behind the scenes, makes a reasonable argument from the perspective of an actual game developer and IP holder. I plan on working professionally on content for UT for the same content and I think the 25% cut for me is completely reasonable for me based on my experience as a developer as well someone who knows what it's like to run a business in the game industry.
 
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)

j6DKPUP.jpg
 
superseohyun said:
of course it dont force player to buy mods. Did company put a gun to your head with their new mobile transaction system? with their new first day DLC? YOU CAN VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Dont buy it if you dont like the practice and it will go away. It just give you a choice! Good company will still give you good game not riddled with micro transaction. CDPR will still provide you with free DLC!

anyone who still believes this should really start to reevaluate their views of this world.

sadly, it is not that simple.
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It's not? I have found that avoiding buying games that include practices I don't like is exactly as simple as it sounds. Yeah companies will still release games with less than optimal practices but I have more games to play than I have time so I think I'll survive.
 
hobblygobbly said:
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)
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Each mod in the collection still has its star ratings shown. The bundle does not. Not sure if the star rating was originally there anyway to be honest.

They've also lowered the price down a bit too.
 
After reading all 55 pages of this thread I'll say this: I understand why people are worried but I do believe that in the end it will all work out for the best. I want mod support in as many games as possible, I want high-quality mods and I want the people that work hard on these mods to get something for their work. The potential for exploitation is there, I fully expect a period of adjustment until both modders and the audience find out together what is worth charging for and what isn't. In the end I believe the market will settle on a good balance.
 
hobblygobbly said:
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)

j6DKPUP.jpg
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I'm afraid it's legit. They weren't getting the reception they wanted, so now they're trying to obfuscate it.

Additionally you can no longer read comments if you haven't purchased the mod, so yeah, there's no way to know the quality of the mod before buying it. Let's see how that "free market" works out for them now.
 
alexandros said:
After reading all 55 pages of this thread I'll say this: I understand why people are worried but I do believe that in the end it will all work out for the best. I want mod support in as many games as possible, I want high-quality mods and I want the people that work hard on these mods to get something for their work. The potential for exploitation is there, I fully expect a period of adjustment until both modders and the audience find out together what is worth charging for and what isn't. In the end I believe the market will settle on a good balance.
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I don't know what's inspiring this confidence. Greenlight is still a complete joke years later.
 
_machine said:
I would be severly offended being compared to someone who accepts sweatshop labor. You are insulting someone who actually knows what goes behind the scenes, makes a reasonable argument from the perspective of an actual game developer and IP holder. I plan on working professionally on content for UT for the same content and I think the 25% cut for me is completely reasonable for me based on my experience as a developer as well someone who knows what it's like to run a business in the game industry.
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Not saying their conditions are the same, just the relations between private owners and the vast majority of workers.
 
alexandros said:
After reading all 55 pages of this thread I'll say this: I understand why people are worried but I do believe that in the end it will all work out for the best. I want mod support in as many games as possible, I want high-quality mods and I want the people that work hard on these mods to get something for their work. The potential for exploitation is there, I fully expect a period of adjustment until both modders and the audience find out together what is worth charging for and what isn't. In the end I believe the market will settle on a good balance.
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Free market will fix it.

I ain't gotta explain shit!
 
hobblygobbly said:
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)

j6DKPUP.jpg
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Yeah no, if that's true that is not a good way start. This whole thing relies on the market and community helping itself and taking out ways for the community to curate things is not the right way. Now I don't want to completely jump to conclusions as it might have something to do with the removal of one of the mods and they still have ratings for individual mods, but it's not a good message they are sending.
 
hobblygobbly said:
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)

j6DKPUP.jpg
Click to expand...


http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/
The cream will rise to the top. Garbage will sink to the bottom.
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Yes; it is legit. Just as the users above said. I was browsing the Steam workshop and noticed that pricing and rating are obscured; you have to visit the mod's page to view them. Also, unless you are subscribed/bought the mod, you can't few discussions (only comments).

Speaking of comments, users who bought that dumb DOTA 2 sword replacement mod are complaining about it not working, and some mod authors are asking people to fuck around with the command console and mod load order; I would feel absolutely disgusted if I payed for a mod and then did the latter.


Klossen said:
Free market will fix it.

I ain't gotta explain shit!
Click to expand...


Welp. I said that earlier in this thread when I heard about the news. After reading about the compatibility issues, early access mods, free-version ads and the actual prices of SMALL mods, I don't like the idea of paid mods and I wish that it didn't happen.
 
Dorsal Axe said:
Additionally you can no longer read comments if you haven't purchased the mod, so yeah, there's no way to know the quality of the mod before buying it. Let's see how that "free market" works out for them now.
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Woooooooooooooooooooooooow

What the fuck Valve.
 
Vallen Valiant said:
Valve could potentially get a cut... But Bethesda does not. deserve one

And since Bethesda insist on getting a cut, the whole deal is off.
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Bethesda put up the massive initial investment to improve gamebyro, develop and distribute the game.

Of course they deserve a cut. Now 50% of the sale is ludicrous.
 
Looks like some mods are already earning money. This one has 1,360 subscribers and with the minimum price of 0,92€ it has already made at least 1250€. So that would be around 313€ to the modders. That's actually not too bad considering it's just an armor set and two weapons and has been on sale for less than three days.
 
Hoo-doo said:
Hiding the actual comments until you pay? Removing the user ratings?

That's fucking devious. Valve you clever bunch.
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Dorsal Axe said:
I'm afraid it's legit. They weren't getting the reception they wanted, so now they're trying to obfuscate it.

Additionally you can no longer read comments if you haven't purchased the mod, so yeah, there's no way to know the quality of the mod before buying it. Let's see how that "free market" works out for them now.
Click to expand...

I can only speculate, but removing the ability to view or create comments may have been to eliminate unmitigated vitriol rather than to intentially obfuscate information.
 
Hoo-doo said:
Hiding the actual comments until you pay? Removing the user ratings?

That's fucking devious. Valve you clever bunch.
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Looking at the comments when they were still public there was so much vitriol it was sickening. People telling modders to go kill themselves. Literally the best comment you could find was "FUCK DLC" and an ASCII middle finger. So in that light I think shutting down the comments for now was the only right move. Of course it's not a lasting solution. User ratings were useless too when people just vote one star for "I don't like paid mods" instead of voting one star for "I played it and this mod is horrible".
 
Grief.exe said:
Bethesda out up the massive initial investment to improve gamebyro, develop and distribute the game.

Of course they deserve a cut. Now 50% of the sale is ludicrous.
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Their cut is the sale of the game;
Mod support is one of the major selling points of skyrim, without it that janky piece of shit base game wouldn't have sold a quarter of what it did.

Not to mention the ENDLESS (and free) continued exposure for their game due to mods over the years.

But it's never ever enough is it.
 
Wait, most of these modders are using custom made assets and textures that are made by using some sort of software (3DMax, Maia, Blender,...etc). I wonder if they should pay loyalties to the owners of the previously mentioned software, since some of these software programmers dictate that you should pay royalties or buy a license if you want to publish/sell anything using their software; what if most users pirated the said software? 3DMax's license is stupidly expensive.
 
CybernatonEvolution said:
Wait, most of these modders are using custom made assets and textures that are made by using some sort of software (3DMax, Maia, Blender,...etc). I wonder if they should pay loyalties to the owners of the previously mentioned software, since some of these software programmers dictate that you should pay royalties or buy a license if you want to publish/sell anything using their software; what if most users pirated the said software? 3DMax's license is stupidly expensive.
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Depends on the kind of license they have of course. If they pirated it then they have none.
 
Sendou said:
Looks like some mods are already earning money. This one has 1,360 subscribers and with the minimum price of 0,92€ it has already made at least 1250€. So that would be around 313€ to the modders. That's actually not too bad considering it's just an armor set and two weapons and has been on sale for less than three days.
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Yeah that's pretty decent even though it's been made by a team of 3 and looking at it's quality I'd say there's closer to at least 50 man hours of work there, but I would say that it could be an encouraging example for a potential modder.
 
Things I've learned in this thread:


  • Modding is the cornerstone of PC gaming, an absolute uptopia of virtue and harmony that serves as the foundation for all of PC gaming
  • Modding is so fragile as a system that any introduction of optional opportunities to make money from modding will topple the system overnight
Seems like if the current system is so great for everyone, people shouldn't be too worried about modders getting more options (because of course the current system is so perfect that no modders are going to want to change the perfect existing system and charge for their mods, amirite?).

I think most of the doomsaying in this thread is from people who don't want to have to buy paid mods. Guess what, you never will have to. As all-powerful as Steam supposedly is, they can't reach into your wallet and force you to pay for something you don't want to buy. So maybe just don't buy mods that aren't worth it...

And I find the economic moralizing in this thread ridiculous. Like I have said, I am fairly liberal in an economic sense (more taxes on rich people, yay!), but I think a market system for modding is way better than just forcing/assuming every mod should be free. That system works great for mod consumers, but really crappy for mod makers. Some mods (and not all) are truly amazing and deserve to have the option to charge for all that work.
 
alexandros said:
After reading all 55 pages of this thread I'll say this: I understand why people are worried but I do believe that in the end it will all work out for the best. I want mod support in as many games as possible, I want high-quality mods and I want the people that work hard on these mods to get something for their work. The potential for exploitation is there, I fully expect a period of adjustment until both modders and the audience find out together what is worth charging for and what isn't. In the end I believe the market will settle on a good balance.
Click to expand...

I would believe that if the DLC sub-market that developed in the last years on the console space, wasn't still garbage for the most part.

The "horse armor" of the born days still lives today in stronger than ever.
 
Hoo-doo said:
Hiding the actual comments until you pay? Removing the user ratings?

That's fucking devious. Valve you clever bunch.
Click to expand...

I am not even a big PC gamer who uses mods and this rubs me wrong merely out of principle. They took something that has always been a free and fun game enhancing experience for a community and turned it into a money making scheme. And then they take it even further by trying to silence people. Just pure scum.
 
Dorsal Axe said:
Additionally you can no longer read comments if you haven't purchased the mod, so yeah, there's no way to know the quality of the mod before buying it. Let's see how that "free market" works out for them now.
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It's not like you would have known beforehand if it was open, given the massive amount of vitriol and ASCII middlefingers.
 
Relaxed Muscle said:
I would believe that if the DLC sub-market that developed in the last years on the console space, wasn't still garbage for the most part.
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Playing Mario Kart 8 DLC now I would have be saddened if we couldn't have DLC at all because most of it is bad. After all I can always choose not to buy DLC I find not to be worth it but if there wasn't DLC at all I would have missed on many great propositions.
 
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