That's how the workshop always looks. Vitriol and ASCII messages.
Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods
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That's how the workshop always looks. Vitriol and ASCII messages.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I'm just saying that the market will regulate by itself is mostly bullshit, you'll agree that MK8 DLC quality is rather the exception than the norm.
But the beauty of modding is that it was always there in the first place. As big quality as MK8 DLC without paying a dollar.
Then they are doing it wrong if they want Steam community to accept this.
GHG
Member
Just caught up on this and the latest developments... Fuck this. Fuck all of this.
Why would they destroy something that was so good? There really was no reason for any intervention. The community was fantastic as it was before and they ended up selling more copies of the game because of it, not less.
I hope this falls flat on its face. Greed has reached a new level in gaming,
Why would they destroy something that was so good? There really was no reason for any intervention. The community was fantastic as it was before and they ended up selling more copies of the game because of it, not less.
I hope this falls flat on its face. Greed has reached a new level in gaming,
Angry Fork
Member
Then let content creators take 100% of the funds.
But nah, gotta let owners charge rent, even if it's unnecessary to continue to run the system. Can't have Valve using their profit for the public good. They need more money, because...... something intellectual property, something they created Steam (with which they've already earned multiple times what they invested but ignore that.)
It's not really a problem with Valve in particular though, Valve is just doing what every other private company in market economies do. They figure out new ways to con more people so they can perpetually grow.
Won't this improve the quality of mods?
This doesn't preclude free mods and not all games will have paid mod support.
Won't this motivate publishers to support modding and release tools?
There are some downsides and there will be growing pains, but I don't think that accounts for the shear amount of vitriol and ranting. The slippery slope arguments are giving me a headache.
This doesn't preclude free mods and not all games will have paid mod support.
Won't this motivate publishers to support modding and release tools?
There are some downsides and there will be growing pains, but I don't think that accounts for the shear amount of vitriol and ranting. The slippery slope arguments are giving me a headache.
PetriP-TNT
Member
Did you get it for free to try out or why did you give it one star?
GHG
Member
You are thinking about this in a fictional utopian world world where greed doesn't exist.
Since I seem to be the free-market proponent in this conversation (lol), maybe I can calm some people down by saying that I am guessing the fair market price for the vast majority of mods out there really is $0, and we will find that out over time in this system (assuming this system isn't destroyed in its infancy by all these reactionaries).
Only some of the truly exceptional mods will be able to support a non-$0 price is my guess (and some of those will likely still be free out of choice of the modders even so)...
Only some of the truly exceptional mods will be able to support a non-$0 price is my guess (and some of those will likely still be free out of choice of the modders even so)...
25% is a really good deal. If they want 100% of the sales price, they are free to do 100% of the work, i.e. creating their game from scratch and sell it on their own platform. Pretty simple, no?
GHG
Member
I'm sure many moderns will find out the hard way that they used to get more money from donations than they will in this system.
Very well said.
If this is the case, then in the long run nothing will change. So I don't understand the screaming.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
How so?
I mean, where's the assurance of that?
For all the PC gamers eager to give the bad look all the traditional DLC on the console space, some of them being that optimistic is rather confusing.
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)
Woah. I think Valve's done. Beginning of a downfall for them.
Oh come on. Insulting people and going on hate campaigns is not "insisting with complaints".
Moral Panic
Member
I can't see why Bethesda should get a cut. What are they doing that they get the right for free money?
There is no guarantee. The people assuming a market is perfect and is just going to magically lift the quality of content up shows a pretty fierce naiveté. We're already seeing how exploitative this all is, what with people using other modders' free mods (meant to stay free) for paid mods and Valve covering up criticism.
As of right now it's dragging down the community and a 'wait and see' attitude is cowardly.
Well I dunno about that. Back when I created HL2EP2 total conversion mods I always knew I could never monetize them because the licensing fee was 800,000 dollars. You're using their engine and assets after all.
A percentage is much better and I think justified. Just not 75% of course.
GHG
Member
The only way they can justify this is by saying they created the engine and have allowed people to make mods of their games.
Having said that, they have been doing this for years without introducing something like this, so why start now?
Because I was given the opportunity to give feedback on what I thought about 16 mods costing $25. Is that the way the rating system is intended to be used? Probably not - and most likely why they disabled the ratings (Hopefully to update it to only be accessible to paying users). Do I feel bad for using a tool presented to me to give feedback? Not really.
OK. So let's jump into a possible future and say that my favourite go-to selection of mods cost £2 each and are only available via the shop. I've probably downloaded and tried 700+ mods over the years, but let's keep it simple to the main ones.
I use 2x lighting mods, 1x gameplay overhaul, 3x texture replacers, 5x more NPC and enemies, 3x weapon packs, 1x UI mod, 1x map, 1x more blood, 1x locational damage, 1x LOD, 1x added normal/bump map, 2x grass/tree, etc etc
My Skyrim has just cost me another £44. fuck that. I can buy other games for that price.
Your mod isn't going to sell unless its of high quality. People expect a solid product if they enter into a financial agreement.
This will motivate more professionals to join the scene and current modders to elevate the quality of the product as there is financial incentive.
Are there any asurances? Obviously not, how could there be? Theoretically, the market should self regulate here, people will come up with lists of required mods, and good word of mouth will spread around the forums. Similarly to games for sale on the Steam store.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Because Bethesda and other companies have been looking for years to get more income from their games. DLC, Pre-order bonuses, etc...
Untapping a potential market like the modding community is just another way to do that.
Also now Bethesda can keep launching buggy games, wait for the community to improve it and keep making money out of it. Is the perfect plan.
Yeah, just like traditional DLC, because horse armor and the likes don't sell at all.
Sorry for being skeptical when there's a similar market out there that already says you're wrong.
It depends, people could throw out any old junk there to make a quick buck, app store for mods. I think the quality of mods will remain largely the same but things will be worse because if a mod breaks you lose money over nothing and Valve won't help you (well they'll help you get a nice Steam wallet refund which will enable you to buy more broken mods). There are also unfinished "early access" mods on there, and there is no guarantee the creator will finish those incomplete mods. Stolen mods/assests also exist without the consent of the original creator. Right now I think the work done in the Winter is Coming cloak mod from Nexus has been bundled in another paid mod without the permission of the creator.
Why is it so hard to see that the old way has not changed in the least, if you make a mod you can do so without paying any royalties as long as it was non-profit. They have started allowing people to profit from their property so like in pretty much any other field they are taking a royalty for that as well as all the transaction fees etc.
And again, in the broad picture it's not new; if you wanted to make money with say Source Engine or Half-Life you would have to pay the licensing fee. Some property holders allow you to make money royalty free, but they are not the majority and they aren't providing all the financial services and platforms for that.
Yes, saying to the modders to kill themselves and insulting them is "complains". Hiding rating? They very fucking well should as the ratings are not legit.
People claiming "censorship" clearly didn't visit the comment section or discussion section of the mods. It's nothing but vitriol, personal attacks, insults, death threats. There's no fucking valid discussion going on there.
Just like the other guy says, the existing DLC market shows how you're wrong.
And Steam's actual in-store curation for games still fucking blows and judging from this first laughable foray into paid mods this is just as bad. Greenlight was this bad at the start and is still a flawed system. How can people still keep apologizing for Valve?
Saw this on reddit, not sure how legitimate it is since I can't check for myself (I'm not on my gaming PC atm)
It's real, however the issue seems to be that you should only be able to rate a mod once you have purchased it, yet many people who hadn't bought the mod were giving it one star ratings...
Moral Panic
Member
GHG
Member
And what was the problem with that?
- did it stop fantastic mods being made? No.
- did it stop the best modders getting the recognition they deserve and even land jobs in the industry? No.
- did it stop people from being able to give donations (of the amount they deemed to be fair for the content) to modders? No.
- did it stop the games themselves selling millions upon millions of copies because of and not in spite of the modding community? No.
They are changing it years after skyrim has released. They are changing it after thousands of high quality free mods have released, many of which have actually boosted sales for the game. They have already in fact profited because of the modding community as it was before, not to mention the fact that modders fixed their broken arse game.
So I ask again, why fuck with it now?
There's also a market that says he's right:
This isn't black and white. It isn't a good or a bad thing, like pretty much everything else in the industry it has both positive and negative sides. What remains to be seen is how it truly affects both the long term and short term, other games and whether it will increase modding tools, will the community driven curation actually work, will it actually make any difference in the bottom line for any of the parties involved, etc.
alexandros
Banned
I have faith in the PC gamer audience. If it doesn't like something it will reject it, like Microsoft's GFWL Gold scheme.
I imagine some modders would be absolutely pissed to see their product monetized without permission and is going to create some interesting legal challenges and hurdles. We've already seen mods pulled down from the store in protest of Valve's deeply flawed system.
"Faith" is a defense now? What utter sentimental tripe. If you believe in the intelligence of markets then I have this little thing called DLC to tell you about and how it's become acceptable.
Maybe you are right, but they deleted me a comment just linking to change.org and telling people to sign the petition if they didn't like this system. No insults, no pesonal attacks, not even a complain, just the petition.
I really felt censored.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Steam (Valve) is more powerful right now to implement a system like this and bruteforce it's way to any backslash. Hell, they are already doing it.
Those are also way more niche and unique markets.
GHG
Member
Either that or sales for Skyrim have dried up so they want to keep some money flowing in before their next game releases.
Angry Fork
Member
"Intellectual Property" aka people shouldn't be able to sell drawings of R2D2 without paying rent to George Lucas. No more free youtube/twitch gameplay, no more jailbreaking your phone because the owner doesn't like it.
Or something about Bathesda creating the "tools" to make new stuff, therefore they deserve a cut of everything that's made from it. So you don't actually own the product you buy and can't do with it what you want, you only buy licenses to things.
The "Libertarian" paradise.
alexandros
Banned
This isn't content cut from the main game to be sold separately. It is content that third parties create after the game's launch. I don't see how the situation is similar. The problem with DLC has never been the fact that we have to pay for it.
balladofwindfishes
Member
On the Dota 2 workshop the cosmetics that get the most attention/get in the game are the ones that are the flashiest, not necessarily the best. Add some cleavage and some "enhancements" to a hero without cleavage? You'll be popular, probably even get in the game. Make a single "badass" summon and then a crappy set to go with it, your entire set will be popular, again, probably also will get in the game. Be attached to some large organization (who takes most of the money) and make a garbage set? Yep, easy road to being in-game.
Dota 2 contributors are at a race to see who can make the most flashiest, garish most easily digested by a single screenshot cosmetics they can. And it works.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There's bad DLC practices that are beyond of just downright cut content.
Bad quality, expensive and short DLC, skins being sold at high prices, game modes that once came for free, etc...
How far we came from these days where people were laughing at the fact that PC gamers could get the same things as console players for free.
I know you're taking the piss but you're not too far off the truth with your first statement.
Modding is a HUGE part of pc gaming and the communities are usually amazing.
This will most definitely cause troubles. Developers just want part of the action. It's like dlc with no work involved.
You guys point to the DLC market as your evidence, but I fail to see how this precludes quality mod development, or even quality DLC for that matter.
I can count the amount of DLC I have purchased on my hand, but there is still solid content our there. The market has obviously dictated that gamers want additional content. Whether you think that is indicative of quality is entirely subjective.
Other than the hundreds of millions up front to develop, market, and distribute the game.
VisceralBowl
Member
There isn't. They hold your money until you've made a little over $100, just like many other services that you can sell on..
If you've been looking at a lot of them, these "complaints" are pretty drastic. False ratings, insults and threats are rampant.
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