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[Durante]

Well even EA did the same thing with Origin. In particular, they don't allow STEAM to sell their games. Viewing as a publisher, I don't see the problem with that. Why reduce my profit when I have my own store to sell games?

CDPR trying to increase their profits by not dealing with GMG is fine. (Though a bit funny for a company which likes to present itself as pro-consumer)
GMG reselling legitimately obtained keys in response is also perfectly fine.

What's wrong is CDPR then engaging in a smear campaign.

 

[Ayt]

Why would they reveal their supplier? U mad? The fact remains, keys they are selling are not illegal. Gamespot and CDPR are not good guys in this case, I think. Very messy altogether.

Part of their business model is that they claim to sell keys directly from developers that they are partnered with as a way to distance themselves from all the shady key sellers that are out there. In this case, they violated that claim and didn't disclose it until this story came to light.

 

[boskee]

Why would they reveal their supplier? U mad? The fact remains, keys they are selling are not illegal. Gamespot and CDPR are not good guys in this case, I think. Very messy altogether.

If they are buying keys from a cheap region and reselling then in the west, that's a shady practice at best. If they're buying codes from Namco or another distributor, none of which is allowed to sell digital copies, it's shady practice at best.

The only company that's in the wrong here is GMG.

 

[Kiyo]

Here's what I think triggered all of this, and why CDPR is the shady party here.

CDPR decided not to give GMG keys because they know that GMG routinely take a hit on their distribution margin, a hit which is larger than other digital distributors. Since in this case GoG are a digital distributor themselves and get to keep that entire cut, someone else enticing customers by charging less would reduce their revenue.

So GMG decided to source the keys from retail copies. And now CDPR is engaging in slander to make it appear is if GMG is selling stolen keys.

While also promoting their own storefront. It's a bit weird to see how much support CDPR is getting here just because they're CDPR. If this was EA who had come out and accused a competitor of selling stolen keys (and that's basically what CDPR did by saying they were receiving $0 from keys sold by GMG) they'd be getting lit up right now.

 

[HowZatOZ]

Here's what I think triggered all of this, and why CDPR is the shady party here.

CDPR decided not to give GMG keys because they know that GMG routinely take a hit on their distribution margin, a hit which is larger than other digital distributors. Since in this case GoG are a digital distributor themselves and get to keep that entire cut, someone else enticing customers by charging less would reduce their revenue.

So GMG decided to source the keys from retail copies. And now CDPR is engaging in slander to make it appear is if GMG is selling stolen keys.

There is no slander. Can we please stop with this argument because it isn't true. GameStop fucked up with their article and made it as if CDPR were attacking GMG.

If we are going to say someone is slandering it could only be GMG's CEO, who made it seem like CDPR was pushing out any competition for their own store. No where has CDPR said GMG is shit. All they've said so far is that right now they don't know where the keys are coming from, and to be wary.

How this has blown up so much with all this misinformation is beyond me.

 

[Zoned]

If they are getting keys from Namco (which they might, we do not know the source of the keys at this moment) how would it not be legit?

NAMCO is just the box distributor, nothing to do with digital games.

 

[stan423321]

I buy oranges from Wal-Mart, but I can't sell them to my neighbor. I am so confused? Is not that 100% legal?

Imagine that WM notices you buy tons of oranges - say, you own a school with unusual punishment system. They give you a deal: you buy oranges 60% cheaper, but you can't do certain things with them.

 

[duckroll]

That would be a first for CDPR. This is the company that gave free games to one region because they were forced to sell their game at a price they didn't want. They have a history of acting for the benefit of their customers. GMG does not.



I just don't see a case where GMG is suddenly good and CDPR is suddenly evil. That's a weird role reversal.

I think people who look at business moves as "good" or "evil" are automatically very poor judges of situations like this.

 

[viveks86]

And most gamers (rightfully) wouldn't give a shit.

We can agree on that. I don't think it needs to be the consumers' problem one way or the other. But I do feel that they should be informed in advance so they can decide based on their degree of tolerance to the subject. The assumption people made was that these were obtained officially, directly from the source, which is not the case. GMG has gone out of their way issuing statements that are now being openly contradicted after they were called out. That deserves public scrutiny and criticism (if they are inclined to give a shit).

The way they are wording it implies that the keys are stolen, which is slander.

Which wording are you referring to? Haven't been following the witcher forums after the initial set of statements

 

[DocSeuss]

Done after this post, g'night...

I buy oranges from Wal-Mart, but I can't sell them to my neighbor. I am so confused? Is not that 100% legal?

It's more like:

A) Company 1 produces product at price needed to succeed in each market.

B) Company 2 wants to sell product.

C) Company 1 refuses Company 2's offer.

D) Company 2 goes to the market where product is cheapest, brings it back, and undercuts Company 1 in their own market.

E) Company 1 needs to sell X # of item at Y $ to survive.

F) Company 2's undercutting means that Company 1 isn't selling X#, meaning that Company 1 may not be able to make the budget of the product.

G) Company 1 gets screwed over massively, Company 2 profits.

It's unethical as all get out.

I think people who look at business moves as "good" or "evil" are automatically very poor judges of situations like this.

I don't mind hyperbole as a rhetorical device. Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way, though. Even though I'm vehemently disagreeing, last thing I want to do is be a dick to someone I normally enjoy engaging with.

 

[dex3108]

There is no good or bad side here. We have issue here that includes GMG and CDPR and for now neither side cleared things 100%.

 

[dani_dc]

NAMCO is just the box distributor, nothing to do with digital games.

Namco has access to GOG keys which they might be providing to GMG, now if Namco can do that or not that's another story, though if Namco couldn't distribute the digital keys and still gave them to GMG that would be on Namco, not on GMG.

 

[Hubble]

Props to GMG. CDPR didn't want to work with them to be greedy and they found a work around.

 

[Wickerbasket]

There are two types of price fixing , horizontal and vertical, the former is among product competitors and is illegal, the former is between manufacturer and distributor and is not illegal, per US law, see resale price maintenance.

http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/2010/08/p...restrictions-are-two-different-animals/#note7

Now obviously I'm not qualified to say which description applies to this situation but it looks to me like the latter.

Did you read the link you posted? It says that it's illegal in the US but that they look at it on a case by case basis in cases where it's deemed not anti competitive.

the practice can offer business and consumer benefits, and does not “always or almost always” restrict competition.

Rule of reason” determines illegality on a case-by-case basis, whereby “the factfinder weighs all of the circumstances of a case in deciding whether a restrictive practice should be prohibited as imposing an unreasonable restraint on competition.”

They are a competitor though, as they own a digital download service and are competing with other digital download services. Setting the pricing on competing services is price fixing.

If they are price fixing, then what they're doing is anti-competitive and most likely illegal.

In any case, price fixing is illegal in the EU and UK as well.

Edit: Here's a wiki link if you want to read about Minimum Retail Price:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

Hint: It's illegal in the US and UK.

 

[Dr Dogg]

Seems likely. For some reason the thought of a company gutting retail boxes for their CD keys strikes me as felonious.

So say I go buy a game off the shelf from a brick and mortar retailer, take the code out and sell it on either at cost, at a loss or a profit what crime or law have I broken in any country? While this might be against the terms of licence that's not unlawful.

CDPR not getting any money from my transaction would be none of their business as they had already made their revenue on their initial sale to the distributor I purchased my copy from. Their business manager even said it himself they can't stop others selling them on.

 

[Dr.Acula]

While also promoting their own storefront. It's a bit weird to see how much support CDPR is getting here just because they're CDPR. If this was EA who had come out and accused a competitor of selling stolen keys (and that's basically what CDPR did by saying they were receiving $0 from keys sold by GMG) they'd be getting lit up right now.

For me it really hinges on where exactly GMG is getting these keys. If the mysterious third party violated a contract agreement with CDPR and are selling cross-region then CDPR have a right to be pissed. If CDPR didn't have explicit language preening this kind of third party sale then they're SOL.

To people that bought off GMG, do you have a key? Did it activate on GOG?

 

[Deleted member 59090]

NAMCO is just the box distributor, nothing to do with digital games.

If they get retail copies and gut them for keys then those come from Namco.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think people who look at business moves as "good" or "evil" are automatically very poor judges of situations like this.

"Valve and EA are nothing alike! Valve loves us!"

 

[Zoned]

To people that bought off GMG, do you have a key? Did it activate on GOG?

I think they start giving out keys at the time of release.

 

[Sijil]

But in this case CDPR is not just a developer, they have their own service, GOG, which competes directly with Steam, Uplay and Origin for the sale of Witcher 3.

Which means CDPR is fixing the price of the product between their service and several of their competitors.

If GMG sells Witcher 3 for a lower price that impacts GOG ability to sell the game at a higher price. By cutting GMG out of the picture GOG doesn't has to compete with other services because they all agred on the same price.



If they are getting keys from Namco (which they might, we do not know the source of the keys at this moment) how would it not be legit?

That's where it becomes all grey CDPR is manufacturer and distributor at the same time, GOG, Steam, Origin and Uplay are partners and competitors at the same time as well. Same with EA and Origin or Ubisoft and Uplay or Sony and PSN, manufacturer and distributors at the same time.

 

[DocSeuss]

For me it really hinges on where exactly GMG is getting these keys. If the mysterious third party violated a contract agreement with CDPR and are selling cross-region then CDPR have a right to be pissed. If CDPR didn't have explicit language preening this kind of third party sale then they're SOL.

To people that bought off GMG, do you have a key? Did it activate on GOG?

last post for the evening, I swear

GMG almost never gives out keys more than a few days before the release date. They will give out miscellaneous keys to invalidate any prepurchase cancellations, but in the years I've followed them, I don't think I've ever seen them drop keys for a preorder more than a week in advance.

 

[Danielsan]

My gut feeling is telling my to side with GMG on this one. Not too fond of CDPR in general and I highly doubt GMG has gotten the keys through some shady source.

 

[hawk2025]

There are two types of price fixing , horizontal and vertical, the former is among product competitors and is illegal, the latter is between manufacturer and distributor and is not illegal, per US law, see resale price maintenance.

http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/2010/08/p...restrictions-are-two-different-animals/#note7

Now obviously I'm not qualified to say which description applies to this situation but it looks to me like the latter.

The issue is complicated by the fact that CDPR is vertically integrated with a retailer, GOG.

If, through CDPR, GOG is agreeing on prices with other retailers, it IS price fixing.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I think they start giving out keys at the time of release.

So CDPR finds out who sold the keys on the day.

That's scary. CDPR might just revoke the whole shebang then.

 

[boskee]

So CDPR finds out who sold the keys on the day.

That's scary. CDPR might just revoke the whole shebang then.

Yup. If they find out that GMG keys are from retail copies they have every right to revoke them. Same of they see those keys were obtained in Russia/Ukraine.

 

[Durante]

I think people who look at business moves as "good" or "evil" are automatically very poor judges of situations like this.

I agree.

In this particular situation though, I just don't see the case for me, as a consumer, to stand up for CDPR. GMG tried to do what they always do, which is selling games cheaper by eating a part of the usually expected margin. (Not because they love us obviously, but because it's their business model) And CDPR blocked them from that because they wanted to make larger profits on their own storefront.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

It's more like:
[...]

E) Company 1 needs to sell X # of item at Y $ to survive.

So by your theory we can expect GMG to kill CDPR with this move?

I guess we'll see. If you are right, I take everything back.

 

[HowZatOZ]

So CDPR finds out who sold the keys on the day.

That's scary. CDPR might just revoke the whole shebang then.

Very doubtful. The keys are most likely purchased legitimately through another retailer, however on the chance they are stolen CDPR would have to revoke them.

 

[dex3108]

Yup. If they find out that GMG keys are from retail copies they have every right to revoke them. Same of they see those keys were obtained in Russia/Ukraine.

I don't think that they have right to revoke keys unless they are purchased with stolen credit card.

 

[Ayt]

So CDPR finds out who sold the keys on the day.

That's scary. CDPR might just revoke the whole shebang then.

Don't be silly. This will be resolved long before that.

 

[Docflem]

This actually occasionally happens. You get profit by also selling something else. See: consoles, eat-all-you-want-but-cannot-drink, F2P...



This entirely depends on contract wording and jurisdiction details. I don't know what CDPR did, of course, but for example, retail partner could technically not buy the key, but "facilitate distribution of it" or something.

Stealing is a crime, breaking a contract has ramifications but it is not a crime (in the united states). There is no way that CDPR can form a contract to make selling a product that the company bought to another person illegal, there by making the sold copy stolen. They can draft a contract that punishes the company who sold keys to GmG but they can not change criminal law with a contract.

 

[Kiyo]

There is no slander. Can we please stop with this argument because it isn't true. GameStop fucked up with their article and made it as if CDPR were attacking GMG.

If we are going to say someone is slandering it could only be GMG's CEO, who made it seem like CDPR was pushing out any competition for their own store. No where has CDPR said GMG is shit. All they've said so far is that right now they don't know where the keys are coming from, and to be wary.

How this has blown up so much with all this misinformation is beyond me.

In the original article by Gamespot they quoted CDPR as saying that they were getting $0 from GMG sales. That's slander.

On CDPR's forums we have a moderator who's posted about how untrustworthy GMG is and how they've been caught selling stolen keys before. That's slander.

 

[publicpwnerer]

I think people who look at business moves as "good" or "evil" are automatically very poor judges of situations like this.

Except CD Projekt have exploited that "consumer friendly" / "moral company" schtick very early on...which built a lot of consumer good will.

 

[FLAguy954]

But you are ignoring the fact that GMG didn't disclose anything about this. They even put NAMCO logo to make it look legit. This is not how genuine retail shop works.

That is how retail works in general, digital or not.

Gamestop doesn't have to disclose how they do things either but everything they do is legal as hell, even if you disagree with it.

 

[boskee]

I don't think that they have right to revoke keys unless they are purchased with stolen credit card.

Of course they can. If Namco sold keys they were given for a retail copy and sold them to GMG, breaking the contrac They have with CDPR then those keys can be revoked.

 

[duckroll]

I don't mind hyperbole as a rhetorical device. Didn't mean to rub you the wrong way, though. Even though I'm vehemently disagreeing, last thing I want to do is be a dick to someone I normally enjoy engaging with.

I'm just calling it as I see it. I don't really have a horse in this race. Lol. Like I said, GMG could well be doing something shady, but not having any evidence of that, it seems unreasonable for me to jump to conclusions based a vague statement made by CDPR, especially given how they run their own competing platform.

When EA pulled all their games from Steam to benefit Origin, there was an uproar too. If Valve ever decided to block out competition , deny them keys, and then talk shit about them without any evidence, I think people should be skeptical too. Liking what a company usually does shouldn't mean blindly accepting everything they say and taking their side in every matter.

There just isn't enough compelling evidence here for me to want to side with either party.

 

[Docflem]

Of course they can. If Namco sold keys they were given for a retail copy and sold them to GMG, breaking the contrac They have with CDPR then those keys can be revoked.

I don't think that is how it works, pretty sure they would just have to sue namco for breach of contract. They really should only be able to revoke stolen keys, and just because namco violated a contract does not make them stolen.

 

[stan423321]

Stealing is a crime, breaking a contract has ramifications but it is not a crime (in the united states). There is no way that CDPR can form a contract to make selling a product that the company bought to another person illegal, there by making the sold copy stolen. They can draft a contract that punishes the company who sold keys to GmG but they can not change criminal law with a contract.

They can write the contract so that the key never belongs to retailer in the first place.

Extending phone analogy, imagine I let you borrow my phone and do certain stuff with it, maybe even sell it but in a certain way. If you sell it differently, the act of purchase is broken and the phone is still mine.

 

[scitek]

There are right ways (buying AMD game cards for $1) and wrong ways (cross-region reselling).

There absolutely nothing wrong with buying keys from another region. Those sites are banned here because there's a chance the keys they obtain are gotten through fraudulent means, such as using stolen credit cards.

 

[Ayt]

In the original article by Gamespot they quoted CDPR as saying that they were getting $0 from GMG sales. That's slander.

What is the slanderous quote from CDPR?

 

[Pinktaco]

Uh.. I read the OP and I'm not seeing the fuss about this. GMG wanted to do business with them, they declined so GMG went to third parties for this. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but unless GMG is doing something illegal (selling Nvidia codes) there shouldn't be a problem here, should there?

 

[Dr Dogg]

I agree.

In this particular situation though, I just don't see the case for me, as a consumer, to stand up for CDPR. GMG tried to do what they always do, which is selling games cheaper by eating a part of the usually expected margin. (Not because they love us obviously, but because it's their business model) And CDPR blocked them from that because they wanted to make larger profits on their own storefront.

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Yeah pretty much though looking at prices everywhere who's officially selling it I'd say CDPR are more over trying to control the price of their product but didn't gamble on GMG sourcing from elsewhere and deep discounting like they usually do. Both CDPR and GMG appeared to have dropped clangers here but really something I expect to be discussed behind closed doors now

In the original article by Gamespot they quoted CDPR as saying that they were getting $0 from GMG sales. That's slander.

On CDPR's forums we have a moderator who's posted about how untrustworthy GMG is and how they've been caught selling stolen keys before. That's slander.

In the original article on Gamespot the only quote that could be applied to the unnamed CDPR rep was "unknown source". The getting no revenue comment is solely on Gamespot.

I don't think that they have right to revoke keys unless they are purchased with stolen credit card.

It will be in the EULA that the copy is only licensed to the original purchaser ie the person who bought it from the initial distributor. There will probably be a revoke clause at the licensor can terminate at any time the agreement has been invalidated. Whether CDPR would do that is another thing.

 

[viveks86]

Props to those who have a balanced opinion on this. This thread is clearly quite polarized even with the current scarcity of evidence pointing to any real malice on either side. As much as I still find myself rooted to one side of the debate, many posts from the other side have been quite insightful. But I've had my share on the topic and hopefully it ends well so that we can enjoy our discounts as we rightfully should.

If not, companies gonna company, right? Whateva!

*Shrugs*

*Runs back to the gameplay thread*

 

[dex3108]

Of course they can. If Namco sold keys they were given for a retail copy and sold them to GMG, breaking the contrac They have with CDPR then those keys can be revoked.

If they sold full retail copy to GMG and GMG took only GOG keys and tossed discs and boxes it is still legal. Only if Namco sold GOG keys to GMG and then sold retail boxes without GOG keys they can revoke them.


And for those who are telling that GMG had bad moves. Guess what CDPR made few mistakes too.

CDPR is company that also broke their promise few months ago introducing regional pricing and currencies after they were pushed by publishers. There was huge backslash so they removed it.

CDPR sold DRM free game in one or more occasions that used cracked .exe file.

And CDPR is company that shut down GOG for a day just for fun.

 

[Denton]

There's also literally nothing wrong with reselling of keys across regions.

True, everyone should buy TW3 on Ukrainian GOG and resell it for 15 bucks in US and other western markets.

And then we can be collectively sad about Cyberpunk being cancelled.

Or alternatively, CDP should sell TW3 for 54 bucks everywhere, ensuring that gamers in poor countries are shit out of luck (go pirates!)

It's funny because on principle I agree that one worldwide price is nice for the most part, but it's not exactly black and white.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

If I have this right:

CDPR didn't wan't to sell any keys to GMG, that's fine.
GMG went and bought keys from elsewhere to sell on their store, also fine.

I don't see the problem.

 

[Spookie]

Uh.. I read the OP and I'm not seeing the fuss about this. GMG wanted to do business with them, they declined so GMG went to third parties for this. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but unless GMG is doing something illegal (selling Nvidia codes) there shouldn't be a problem here, should there?

If there is I can't see it. Sites I buy from do exactly the same thing: they gut European (not Russian) copies of games and sell scans of the code. They have no retail presence and low overheads, so they manage to operate on low margins to make a profit. It seems like CDPR got upset GMG used their initiative.

 

[Big_Al]

Of course they can. If Namco sold keys they were given for a retail copy and sold them to GMG, breaking the contrac They have with CDPR then those keys can be revoked.

Breaking a contract is not the same as breaking the law though. CDPR still got the money for those copies sold.

 

[Northeastmonk]

If I have this right:

CDPR didn't wan't to sell any keys to GMG, that's fine.
GMG went and bought keys from elsewhere to sell on their store, also fine.

I don't see the problem.

CDPR works hard developing a franchise and they're allowed to speak out about an advantage another company is making on them. It's in their best interest to be honest, but it doesn't necessarily benefit the developer. I hate seeing something like this go down.

 

[Dr.Acula]

If they sold full retail copy to GMG and GMG took only GOG keys and tossed discs and boxes it is still legal. Only if Namco sold GOG keys to GMG and then sold retail boxes without GOG keys they can revoke them.

I'm not sure what happens if a Polish company sold keys to a Japanese one for the Russian market, or whatever this happens to be. We could be dealing with reselling laws completely outside of the US/EU.

 

[Docflem]

They can write the contract so that the key never belongs to retailer in the first place.

Extending phone analogy, imagine I let you borrow my phone and do certain stuff with it, maybe even sell it but in a certain way. If you sell it differently, the act of purchase is broken and the phone is still mine.

That is a stretch, and again the item is not a stolen good, the person you contracted to sell your item breached your contract, meaning you sue the seller not the person who bought it. Also I don't think you get your phone back, you just get paid the value of the phone, unless you can show me an example of your analogy.