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[depths20XX]

Then if you go by that logic, there's nothing really they can say unless they have the game completely ready to go...

I mean, if they said from the beginning "the game will have 9 bosses, but we can add one more through stretch goals". What's stopping them from always having planned 10 bosses, and then axing one if the goal is not met?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but damn, that's a very cynic view...

Well, someone already posted an example of how PoE actually had meaningful and descriptive stretch goals. That's what would be desired. The problem is this game is just concept at this point so they can't really do that. I'd rather they didn't even need to make up stretch goals and just have the donations keep coming in but that's not the way of Kickstarters I guess.

 

[Durante]

A couple of questions about this thread (that may have already been answered way back, but I've missed too much to go back and look):

- Why all the poo-pooing of 2.5D? I *like* 2.5D. I may be heretical for saying this, but I loved Mirror of Fate on 3DS. I 100%ed it. God of War III looked 2.5D in places when the camera panned way back. I like the look of you playing in what looks like a 3D-modelled diorama.
Is it just that people pine for sprites? Let's not let nostalgia get too much in the way. Anyway, legitimate question.

- Why the disappointment over Mighty No.9? I never heard any gripes until I read this thread. Was there some sort of graphical downgrade? The game's not out yet. Is it too early to judge?

Any, I'm stoked for this game, I love the cheesy Kickstarter video, and I'll be backing the shit out of this game.

While I completely agree with your position on 2.5D (with the additional point that it's also a better use of resources) I wish you hadn't brought it up, we had finally moved on beyond that talking point

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

It specifically says in the FAQ that there are no plans for other platforms because they don't want to compromise the vision of the game.

Actually, the FAQ strongly hints that a Wii U port is one of the higher stretch goals.

"That said, we've heard legends about a remarkable treasure hidden in the castle basement."

Castle Basement is what they're calling the final tier of stretch goals.

 

[Sword Familiar]

Where? I cant find it, it is in the KS page or stream/video?

What I meant to say was, I remember others mentioning it. Don't know where it originated from. Certainly not the sales pitch video.

 

[illusionary]

I'd echo the comments about the stretch goals seeming somewhat oddly set (and all this achievement stuff just feels a bit too 'game-y', but I'm still in for this and backed at the $60 tier last night. The pledges for the reward tiers above that rise a bit too steeply for me to be able to justify anything more for now.

I'm intrigued as to quite how many stretch goals they're planning, given this stuff about 'castle'/'dungeon' goals and them already having a $2m goal with no sign of the 'dungeon' goals...

 

[georly]

Actually, the FAQ strongly hints that a Wii U port is one of the higher stretch goals.

"That said, we've heard legends about a remarkable treasure hidden in the castle basement."

Castle Basement is what they're calling the final tier of stretch goals.

Youtube video watchable in wii u's browser!

 

[Crocodile]

What I meant to say was, I remember others mentioning it. Don't know where it originated from. Certainly not the sales pitch video.

It's the answer to the fourth question in this interview

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Actually, I just went back and looked at the stretch goals and I'm not sure what the big deal is. Cheat codes & new boss are a little vague (since we don't know how many bosses there will be or if the cheat codes are anything interesting) but everything else seems pretty straightforward. Assuming all currently revealed goals are met, you get local co-op, another playable character, another difficulty option, and a few different bonus modes - all stuff that makes sense for a Metroidvania. Given how the game has scarcely been started, they can't really get much more specific than they are being.

 

[Sword Familiar]

It's the answer to the fourth question in this interview

Thanks. Quoted it incase anyone else wants to read.

The details I received say that the game already has funding -- can you talk about the source of that funding, and why you are also going to Kickstarter?

KI: All I can say right now is that after over a year of talking with just about every publisher out there, I was able to secure funding for about 90 percent of the game with the condition that I prove the market still wants an Igavania game. Kickstarter proved to be a great solution, as it would (hopefully) show that people still want an Igavania game while simultaneously providing funds for the core game.

That being said, I'm hoping to clear a few stretch goals so I can add some new features and modes that I've always wanted to do but was never able to in the past. Hopefully, the fact that I've been able to gather most of the investment myself will put to rest any fears that backers may have about this title not being released.

 

[loganclaws]

I think it's a little much to go from "Man, these stretch goals are lacking details" to "They haven't published their design doc, so clearly the extras promised in their stretch goals are all lies."

Where did anyone accuse the devs of lying? I think you;re the one who's jumping to conclusions. What we're talking about is how little transparency and inspiration is provided for these stretch goals. I mean they asked for half a million for the game and they mentioned that they have an investor already and the KS has succeeded. Now they are asking for huge amounts of money for minor things like speed run mode whatever that means, or cheat codes (lol). That's just not right.

And to those people saying "oh don't worry about it, there is no correlation between the stretch goals and the amounts they're asking for them", how exactly do you justify giving more money? Where is the money going? This is just a silly videogame, we know, but at the same time it's still an investment and when one makes an investment he should be informed of what he is investing in.

 

[Maedhros]

Maybe the new boss is a super secret boss (you need to complete this checklist of things, use these items to access a secret area with a boss)? I don't know.

But I agree with the sentiment that these stretches aren't really well explained. They need to step up their game, people are willing to put money behind this!

 

[Evilmaus]

Just upped my pledge from $60 to $100. Couldn't help myself. I need that lapel pin.

I'll probably end up just biting the bullet and going for the $300 tier. Watch this space.

 

[Durante]

Actually, I just went back and looked at the stretch goals and I'm not sure what the big deal is. Cheat codes & new boss are a little vague (since we don't know how many bosses there will be or if the cheat codes are anything interesting) but everything else seems pretty straightforward. Assuming all currently revealed goals are met, you get local co-op, another playable character, another difficulty option, and a few different bonus modes - all stuff that makes sense for a Metroidvania. Given how the game has scarcely been started, they can't really get much more specific than they are being.

What's "local co-op"?
A separate mode with individual missions or the entire campaign?
Same screen (with or without zoom) or split screen?
Is the "local" part of "local coop" a stretch goal because "co-op" was already part of the pitch video, or was that a mixup?

I really think they should provide at least a minimum of description. Not everyone has a way with words like (and loves to write as many of them as) Obsidian, but these buzzwords do lack even the most basic elaboration.

And to those people saying "oh don't worry about it, there is no correlation between the stretch goals and the amounts they're asking for them", how exactly do you justify giving more money? Where is the money going? This is just a silly videogame, we know, but at the same time it's still an investment and when one makes an investment he should be informed of what he is investing in.

It's not an investment. It's a donation.

 

[Maedhros]

Where did anyone accuse the devs of lying? I think you;re the one who's jumping to conclusions. What we're talking about is how little transparency and inspiration is provided for these stretch goals. I mean they asked for half a million for the game and they mentioned that they have an investor already and the KS has succeeded. Now they are asking for huge amounts of money for minor things like speed run mode whatever that means, or cheat codes (lol). That's just not right.

And to those people saying "oh don't worry about it, there is no correlation between the stretch goals and the amounts they're asking for them", how exactly do you justify giving more money? Where is the money going? This is just a silly videogame, we know, but at the same time it's still an investment and when one makes an investment he should be informed of what he is investing in.

KICKSTARTER ISN'T AN INVESTMENT.

It's a donation for an idea which entitles you to something. But you're not an investor. You just sit and wait for them to start updating their goals and what they'll do.

 

[Sword Familiar]

The credits are going to be so long with all those backers pledging $100+.

 

[wilflare]

Actually, looks like they just added one - there's a new alternate $60 tier with digital game, guide, and soundtrack.

I'm switching my pledge to that.

Oh fuck yes!! Switching to that too.

switched too but lol.
this is hmmm :/

 

[Happy-Bunny]

What's "local co-op"?

A trendier way to say "two-player mode".

 

[Anoregon]

The credits are going to be so long with all those backers pledging $100+.

The Pillars credit scroll has an option to speed up to like 16x (maybe even 32x) because of how huge it is.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

What's "local co-op"?
A separate mode with individual missions or the entire campaign?
Same screen (with or without zoom) or split screen?
Is the "local" part of "local coop" a stretch goal because "co-op" was already part of the pitch video, or was that a mixup?

I really think they should provide at least a minimum of description. Not everyone has a way with words like (and loves to write as many of them as) Obsidian, but these buzzwords do lack even the most basic elaboration.

More detail would be nice, but you can guess the most likely answer to all of these questions - not separate mode, no online co-op, same screen - simply because that would be the easiest way to implement co-op in this kind of game. If it was something more intricate or elaborate, they would have given details.

 

[Durante]

A trendier way to say "two-player mode".

No, it's actually more specific than that. However, its still lacking crucial details which should be made clear, as I indicate in my post.

 

[Sciz]

And to those people saying "oh don't worry about it, there is no correlation between the stretch goals and the amounts they're asking for them", how exactly do you justify giving more money?

People generally bump their pledges for backer rewards, not stretch goals.

 

[loganclaws]

Actually, I just went back and looked at the stretch goals and I'm not sure what the big deal is. Cheat codes & new boss are a little vague (since we don't know how many bosses there will be or if the cheat codes are anything interesting) but everything else seems pretty straightforward. Assuming all currently revealed goals are met, you get local co-op, another playable character, another difficulty option, and a few different bonus modes - all stuff that makes sense for a Metroidvania. Given how the game has scarcely been started, they can't really get much more specific than they are being.

To me it seems like asking for an incredible amount of money for little to no work. You;re a dev yourself, you don't need $150,000 to add cheat codes that's for sure. Second playable character is a $100,000? If it's anything like previous games in this series, there is no new story or cutscenes, just a new character running through the castle so it's literally just modelling/animating the new character; do you really need to pay a modeller/artist/programmer almost a full year's salary for that???

The main point is that all Kickstarter projects need more transparency and tangible milestones, similar to what is presented to publishers (or even more detailed since these people are dedicated fans).

 

[Durante]

More detail would be nice, but you can guess the most likely answer to all of these questions - not separate mode, no online co-op, same screen - simply because that would be the easiest way to implement co-op in this kind of game.

That would actually be exactly what I want, but e.g. MN9 has a separate co-op challenge mode and no campaign coop. That would be disappointing, and as you say at this point I can just guess at what will manifest for Bloodstained. That's unnecessarily vague.

The main point is that all Kickstarter projects need more transparency and tangible milestones, similar to what is presented to publishers (or even more detailed since these people are dedicated fans).

No, that's an unnecessary degree of overhead. They simply need to clearly define the what, not so much the how. But the former is lacking for some of the stretch goals here.

 

[Eusis]

Well,
- it's by Iga, who hasn't made a game in the genre for a really long time
- it's on PC
- it will have a decent (> indie) budget
- coop!

I like indie 'vanias well enough, but I still consider most of Iga's games to be a step above them. And now he'll get to work on high-end platform with a great engine. What's not to like?

My biggest issues were recycling and somewhat bland level design, and I'm reasonably sure the budget, Inti Creates, and plain old copyright law will ensure those aren't problems and we could even see his best post-SotN title yet.

EDIT: Well, I also had issues with the stories, but a lot of that had to do with cramming more shit into a packed timeline, and that's been resolved for the same Copyright reason, even if he went full Dracula he'd need to start from scratch. But even with my gripes I do think on average I enjoyed his games more than most Metroid knockoffs, and a higher budget version for modern consoles is worth the novelty at worst.

 

[loganclaws]

It's not an investment. It's a donation.

KICKSTARTER ISN'T AN INVESTMENT.

It's a donation for an idea which entitles you to something. But you're not an investor. You just sit and wait for them to start updating their goals and what they'll do.

Yes you guys love to echo this phrase over and over. If it's a donation then arguably the devs should be EVEN MORE transparent. Think of every organization that wants donations, they usually provide a breakdown of where the money is going to inform the donators of how much they will be helping and contributing. At least an investor is getting dividends, here you are giving money for blind faith.

Guys, please send me $150,000, I want to go buy a piece of gum, it will take more effort than adding cheat codes.

 

[Maedhros]

Yes you guys love to echo this phrase over and over. If it's a donation then arguably the devs should be EVEN MORE transparent. Think of every organization that wants donations, they usually provide a breakdown of where the money is going to inform the donators of how much they will be helping and contributing. At least an investor is getting dividends, here you are giving money for blind faith.

And the problem here is... ???

Seriously... you don't like what they are saying, you don't donate for them.

 

[Evilmaus]

I'd really like to see them go all-out with the lore for this game. An incredibly detailed and well-realised history and a whole encyclopaedia about different artifacts and monsters and such.

 

[Durante]

here you are giving money for blind faith.

Indeed, that's the concept. Well, not quite blind faith, but your own estimation of how likely any given project will result in something you want, and how much you want it.

If you don't like it, you don't have to join.

 

[YianGaruga]

How the hell are we still having the same discussions in every KS thread. You would think people understood what KS is and what it isn't by now.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Anyone know if yesterdays stream is on youtube?

 

[Gbraga]

Guys, please send me $150,000, I want to go buy a piece of gum, it will take more effort than adding cheat codes.

And just like no one is forcing you to back this game, I can just say "no" to your request.

It's that simple.

Indeed, that's the concept. Well, not quite blind faith, but your own estimation of how likely any given project will result in something you want, and how much you want it.

If you don't like it, you don't have to join.

You can even like it and not join, but instead wait for the game to come out and buy then. It's not like they haven't achieved their initial goal, or that there was any doubt they would.

I've backed many kickstarters already... only MN9 ended being a bit dissapointing for me so far (even then I'll still get a game in the end).

Among the Sleep was a bit of a disappointing game to me (didn't even play the DLC), but it's a disappointing game I'd buy at launch based on the concept anyway. I've been more disappointed by $60 games.

 

[Maedhros]

I've backed many kickstarters already... only MN9 ended being a bit dissapointing for me so far (even then I'll still get a game in the end).

 

[loganclaws]

That would actually be exactly what I want, but e.g. MN9 has a separate co-op challenge mode and no campaign coop. That would be disappointing, and as you say at this point I can just guess at what will manifest for Bloodstained. That's unnecessarily vague.

No, that's an unnecessary degree of overhead. They simply need to clearly define the what, not so much the how. But the former is lacking for some of the stretch goals here.

Well, you may think it's overhead but it's all relative. It's not much overhead to have clear and concise updates/stretch goals at the beginning of the campaign when it starts since the people behind the kickstarter are already spending time planning it. Throughout development it's not much overhead to keep the backers informed with the details the same way Obsidian/Larian and many other devs did in past kickstarter projects. It's literally one person taking an hour or two every week or so.

 

[Sword Familiar]

Obviously Iga needs the money to buy his own tropical island. But hey, if that's what he needs to make another game, then I'm all for it.

 

[Nabae]

Anyone know if yesterdays stream is on youtube?

If you're interested in the stuff that came before the speedrun of SotN, you can watch it here: http://www.twitch.tv/kindafunnygames/v/4926236

 

[Durante]

Well, you may think it's overhead but it's all relative. It's not much overhead to have clear and concise updates/stretch goals at the beginning of the campaign when it starts since the people behind the kickstarter are already spending time planning it. Throughout development it's not much overhead to keep the backers informed with the details the same way Obsidian/Larian and many other devs did in past kickstarter projects. It's literally one person taking an hour or two every week or so.

Obsidian and Larian did not even remotely provide the level of detail you just insisted on in your previous posts, and which I described as excessive overhead. I do think the level of detail and descriptions they provided are close to ideal.

 

[TheSlySoul]

Actually, looks like they just added one - there's a new alternate $60 tier with digital game, guide, and soundtrack.

I'm switching my pledge to that.

Actually I rather have that than a physical copy personally.
Nice to give more choices I guess.

 

[Durante]

If you're interested in the stuff that came before the speedrun of SotN, you can watch it here: http://www.twitch.tv/kindafunnygames/v/4926236

And SotN is here: http://www.twitch.tv/romscout/v/4943102

 

[Maedhros]

Well, you may think it's overhead but it's all relative. It's not much overhead to have clear and concise updates/stretch goals at the beginning of the campaign when it starts since the people behind the kickstarter are already spending time planning it. Throughout development it's not much overhead to keep the backers informed with the details the same way Obsidian/Larian and many other devs did in past kickstarter projects. It's literally one person taking an hour or two every week or so.

Why don't you make a separated thread to talk of your thesis about the woes and problems of the kickstarter model and let the thread for people who want to enjoy the tracking/new stretches and related things.

That way you will be happy and peoplo who agree with you can keep talking all day.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Obviously Iga needs the money to buy his own tropical island. But hey, if that's what he needs to make another game, then I'm all for it.

The island is where he can rest, think clearly, and come up with amazing level designs and bosses. I feel like the island should be the $5 million stretch goal - "Iga buys a private island"

 

[diffusionx]

Yes you guys love to echo this phrase over and over. If it's a donation then arguably the devs should be EVEN MORE transparent. Think of every organization that wants donations, they usually provide a breakdown of where the money is going to inform the donators of how much they will be helping and contributing. At least an investor is getting dividends, here you are giving money for blind faith.

Guys, please send me $150,000, I want to go buy a piece of gum, it will take more effort than adding cheat codes.

This is one reason why I don't donate, but the truth is that laws that govern investing are very strict and they do include disclosure.

If Bloodstained is good I'll buy it, but I can wait. I didn't like his GBA/DS output.

 

[Firemind]

Obviously Iga needs the money to buy his own tropical island. But hey, if that's what he needs to make another game, then I'm all for it.

What the hell is Soma holding? Why not use the original artwork?

 

[loganclaws]

And the problem here is... ???

Seriously... you don't like what they are saying, you don't donate for them.

Indeed, that's the concept. Well, not quite blind faith, but your own estimation of how likely any given project will result in something you want, and how much you want it.

If you don't like it, you don't have to join.

And just like no one is forcing you to back this game, I can just say "no" to your request.

It's that simple.

Absolutely. The big issue here is that kickstarter projects are all interconnected in a way. There is already a little bit of a stigma associated with the site. The more mismanaged and vague and scummy looking these projects are, the worse the overall effect will be on future projects. This is why people who go to kickstarter have a sort of responsibility to be clear, concise and transparent so that backers are informed and are not "burned".

 

[Ambitious]

Actually, looks like they just added one - there's a new alternate $60 tier with digital game, guide, and soundtrack.

I'm switching my pledge to that.

Thanks, I just switched.

 

[Sword Familiar]

What the hell is Soma holding? Why not use the original artwork?

What is my name?

 

[loganclaws]

Why don't you make a separated thread to talk of your thesis about the woes and problems of the kickstarter model and let the thread for people who want to enjoy the tracking/new stretches and related things.

That way you will be happy and peoplo who agree with you can keep talking all day.

Because I am on a discussion forum and I am making valid points about this specific project? Feel free to put me on your ignore list.

 

[Maedhros]

I really wanted to give $60 for this... but it's too much for me...

 

[loganclaws]

Obsidian and Larian did not even remotely provide the level of detail you just insisted on in your previous posts, and which I described as excessive overhead. I do think the level of detail and descriptions they provided are close to ideal.

Again it's relative, the level of detail I insisted on is similar the level that Obsidian/Larian provided to their backers. I don't think the same level of detail is communicated to publishers on traditionally funded projects about gameplay mechanics, balance, etc etc. Maybe you thought I was talking about providing spreadsheets and daily progress reports which is not the case.

 

[Firemind]

What is my name?

It's just so... jarring with Kojima's artwork.

 

[Sword Familiar]

It's just so... jarring with Kojima's artwork.

If it irritates you that much I guess I'll... keep it.