Except the red cross does pocket a certain amount of the donations to fund the running of the organization.
Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
Except the red cross does pocket a certain amount of the donations to fund the running of the organization.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Kickstarter is an all-or-nothing system (if you don't reach the goal, you get none of the money) so generally, the base goal of a Kickstarter is the bare minimum to finish the project IF nothing goes wrong AND the developer pours a lot of their own money into the project in addition to the Kickstarter funds. However, things always go wrong and generally developers prefer to not be heavily in debt by the time they release their game. Stretch goals provide a way for them to encourage people to continue donating money after the original goal is met but typically the stretch goal only costs a tiny fraction of the extra money acquired since the goal is to provide more money for the project as a whole and not to provide another chance for the developer to horribly underestimate costs.
There's always that one guy in these type of threads that tells people about how bad Kickstarter is over and over again. We get it you're skeptical or been burned before, not all Kickstarter are duds some even exceed expectations, we'll just have to wait and see if this turns out good or not, no need to throw your stones yet.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
That's not pocketing money, just paying the bills, similar to any Kickstarter project.
theSlacker
Member
I thought it was a cute idea that could just garner added attention and would defiantly all get met at first, but since they updated and made the higher levels so much higher I don't know if we will reach them all. As a forgone conclusion they just acted as neet little checkboxes that we could watch be filled in real time as the kickstarter progressed, but since they aren't updating them that fast, and they are now crazy high for the next levels it is less appealing for sure.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
You are effectively saying that things always go wrong because of inexperience/mismanagement/any other reason and so developers want more money. Imagine making this justification in any other industry? Just because it's all or nothing doesn't mean developers shouldn't strive to provide more clarity. Again, I would argue that for those exact reasons you mentioned, developers should strive to carefully plan and have the foresight to try and avoid those pitfalls. The way this is done is by having clear goals, milestones, etc...
This kickstarter doesn't have any of the above and is borderline exploiting people's nostalgia at this point with 3 or 4 concept art pictures.
Have you ever made a game, or any piece of software?
Delays and unexpected things happen on every project, and you still have to pay people during those times.
It's not "inexperience" or "mismanagement" - it's how everything works.
And, yes, every other industry pads budgets for unexpected delays. Games, if anything, do it far less than they should compared to other industries, especially on Kickstarter.
Are people seriously concerned that a famous producer and a development team (of which we know what they look like and where they live) who have decades of experience between them making these sorts of games are going to run off and steal our money? Really? REALLY? A pie-chart breakdown of their expenditures would be nice, and I feel should become standard practice, but its absence is not something worth roasting them about. More money means more polish and some slush in case shit happens (and shit basically always happens because that's the way the universe works). For what its worth, they also said they would go into more detail about extra bosses, monsters, etc. the KS money would fund in their recent Kickstarter update.
Also I really wish people would stop bringing up MN9. 90+% of complaints are "graphics suck" (which as a lot to do with misplaced expectations) and maybe the level design is bad (which could be true but can't be discerned conclusively). Nothing about MN9 really informs us one way or another how Bloodstained may turn out so I have no real idea why it keeps being brought up in conversations here.
True but its better than nobody giving a shit about this though. The flurry of activity may even convince their publisher to raise their contribution to the project.
It amuses me that you are tying to talk down to a video game developer about how video game development works
Also I really wish people would stop bringing up MN9. 90+% of complaints are "graphics suck" (which as a lot to do with misplaced expectations) and maybe the level design is bad (which could be true but can't be discerned conclusively). Nothing about MN9 really informs us one way or another how Bloodstained may turn out so I have no real idea why it keeps being brought up in conversations here.
True but its better than nobody giving a shit about this though. The flurry of activity may even convince their publisher to raise their contribution to the project.
It amuses me that you are tying to talk down to a video game developer about how video game development works
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
I was going to ignore your post, but I'll bite. Am I familiar with programming? Yes with C and C++. Cheat codes can be programmed in a day or a much longer period of time; it all depends on what the cheat code is/does. We don't have any idea what they want the $150,000 for. This is my point.
I'll agree that kickstarters that are perceived as "poor" can affect the confidence people have in other unrelated kickstarter projects, but I don't think that's a problem that can really be solved. In my opinion the issue stems from the backer perception that a given project hasn't met expectations. The problem is backer expectations may not be reasonable and may ignore information placed right in front of them.
So while I'm always in favor of having more info (ex I loved when the Torment devs shared the design doc for the crises system) most people won't even both reading it. Heck, go back and read the first half of this thread and see all the people that evidently didn't read anything on the Bloodstained kickstarter page. See all the people thinking the concept art was in game despite having the concept watermark! Essentially people will think a project is whatever they imagine it is despite any evidence to the contrary until they actually get their hands on it and decry it for not matching the vision in their heads.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Actually, it's more that it's nigh impossible to get people to actually fund full development of a game via Kickstarter. For example, this project needs a bare minimum of $5 million based on what they've said. Did they set the minimum goal for say $7 million (since you gotta pay so money for rewards, fees, and taxes)? Of course not - the biggest kickstarter for a video game to date only raised a little over $4 million. So instead they set for an amount that they think they can reach in a reasonable period of time and then hope to make more via stretch goals & other forms of funding.
I wish this wasn't the case, but you make do with what you've got.
You can't automatically assume a cheat code can be easy to implement into any game. If you program the game from the beginning assuming you'll be adding in cheat codes, then sure. Codes can be added in a day. If your game has no interface or method to enter codes, if those codes have to change thousands of individual attributes, or do complex things, then no, no they can't be added in in a day. Not to mention, making cheat codes 'official' means they now have to be tested as a part of the normal game, so that requires more time and money in that regard.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
This shit is straight crazy! for real for real.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
You missed the point. Yes something goes wrong on every project and I work on projects in the billions not millions. The point is that careful planning and transparency as well as clear direction is critical to minimize these pitfalls and asking for money when you haven't done your due diligence is ridiculous.
It amuses me that you are tying to talk down to a video game developer about how video game development works
Glad I amuse you. I am in no way talking down to Robert, it's just a conversation which some of you seem to have a hard time grasping. We are on a forum with a huge age diversity, and I have no idea if you're 12 or 64, no offense meant to anyone.
Kojirospath
Member
I really don't understand stretch goal complaints by backers. You're giving money to fund an idea. Your investment is guaranteed a future return you deemed worthy with the information presented to you at the time of backing. Who cares if it gets overfunded and silly stretch goals come into the picture?
Seems like some weird backers entitlement or something.
Seems like some weird backers entitlement or something.
They've already talked a bit about what they plan with Cheat Codes:
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.twitch.tv/kindafunnygames...790?t=8h07m36s
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...ww.twitch.tv/kindafunnygames...790?t=8h07m36s
I hope you are being sarcastic lol
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
I would argue that this would depend on how well defined the game's scope is, which brings me back to careful planning and management during the initiation/planning and execution phase of the project. I have no problem if the developers try to make money to improve the game via stretch goals. I do have a problem with shitty/scummy/illogical stretch goals that the devs put out and ask money for without telling me where the money is really going or being used for.
Crankshaft
Member
This thread was so exciting and happy yesterday and today "BOOM!" everyone is cranky-pants over stretch goals. It's amazing the speed in which people turn petty.
I don't think people should be looking at each stretch goal as 'this is how much it costs to implement this next feature.'
That said, paying programmers and testers ain't cheap.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Really? I think you have no idea how programming works. Again the point is that we don't know what cheat codes they are talking about. The onus is on the devs to explain, not vice versa.
While I completely agree with your position on 2.5D (with the additional point that it's also a better use of resources) I wish you hadn't brought it up, we had finally moved on beyond that talking point
Sorry, I read GAF on the train to and from work, so I miss everything while I'm at work.
Like I said, there's always that one guy that has to rock the boat.
More_Badass
Member
I think a one or two person team working on a smaller-scale indie game could get the funding they need, but once the team size and scope gets bigger, yeah, it's not enough
theSlacker
Member
I'm a software engineer. I know that context is everything. You could tell me to add cheat codes to 50 different games and I bet that implementing cheat codes will be easier in some than others. Unless you know what the scope of the cheat codes are and what the framework or game engine allow, then you can't possibly know how quickly one can implement cheat codes into the game. It could be something as simple as an if statement, but it could also require rewriting huge chunks of the code to enable flags or variable changes where they weren't possible before.
One of the cheat codes they mentioned on the stream was possibly the option to change voice acting to 'terrible voice acting.' That will take longer than a day to record new VA, convert the audio files, implement them into the code, and then have testers debug the code.
More_Badass
Member
You do realize how stretch goals work? It's not "150k to do cheat codes". It's "150k to design and implement the cheat codes functions, as well as the extra characters and modes and everything else that we promised in the previous stretch goals + make the actual game". It's cumulative. Thus the more things you add, the more time and money it takes
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Part of the dev's responsibility is to manage backer expectations and perceptions. And this is done by providing as much detail as possible. If you simply announce a game without showing anything tangible and say this is the follow up to amazing game XYZ, then of course backers will have wild expectations.
Your second point about some backers who don't give a shit enough to read and just throw money at devs is sort of moot because nothing will change those people, but you can't assume all backers are like that.
They used to be debug code left in (and not removed, because that would require MORE debugging). Something to help the testers out. Modern software engines made a lot of that redundant, which is the real reason they don't do them anymore.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Even there, it's mostly because everybody's taking seriously reduced paychecks.
Like take our current project. Goal is to get it out later this year so for simplicity, let's say we have 2 years of development time. Average industry burn rate is $10k month per employee. There's two of us so that's $480k. Add hiring a composer, reward fulfillment, taxes, etc, etc. and you're easily way past half a million dollars for a relatively modest project.
Of course, not having a big name or IP attached to our game, we (and other indie developers) can't reasonably expect to raise $500k-$1million for our Kickstarter so we find other ways - we use our own savings, we pay ourselves lower wages, we use revenue from past games, we find ways to save money. The money we got from Kickstarter ($132k) was a huge help but it's only a small part of the overall expense in making the game.
I think this is more accurate (edit: about what people who don't like the game usually post). Also people have probably different reasons each why they are dissapointed. Fact is though that usually there are a lot of people in mn9 threads that don't like what they see in screens and videos from the game mostly regarding the artstyle.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
So you're basically agreeing with me that it all depends on what sort of cheat codes they are talking about? Well, we know nothing because they provided nothing. So they talked about one potential silly cheat code in the stream which you brought up as an example. Is this "bad voice acting" mode really something that is worth paying more money for? Let's look back at the previous games in the Castlevania series, were there any meaningful cheat codes at all? SOTN had those stat modifiers if you entered certain names when you started a new game, which I bet not many of you actually used for any extended periods of time. Were there any others? I assume secret modes like Julius mode doesn't fall under cheat codes.
Kojirospath
Member
They have nothing planned out, it's all concept right know. They can't show pie charts if there is nothing to pie chart. They underestimated the response and probably should have planned this a little better. Biggest point of this KS was to gauge interest and that probably should not have been the goal but you are expecting things from this that were never it's intended goal.
Finale Fireworker
Member
People are so out of whack with how Kickstarter works. This is the point of Kickstarter:
"Hello, we would like to make this. Would you like to give us money to make this?"
>Yes
>No
If Yes,
"Thank you. We will use your donation to help make this thing."
If No,
"Okay."
"Hello, we would like to make this. Would you like to give us money to make this?"
>Yes
>No
If Yes,
"Thank you. We will use your donation to help make this thing."
If No,
"Okay."
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
10k per month? Wow, I'd love to see a source for this. Here in Montreal average salary per employee is about half of that, though more technical positions like programmers and AI developers are paid higher than artists/modellers/level creators obviously. I'd say 120k (canadian) per year is at the high end of the spectrum as a salary in the game industry.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Burn rate, not salary.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Thank god devs like Obsidian/Larian/Inexile and many others have a better understanding than what you state above. We would've never seen games like Pillars/Divinity in a million years.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
What's burn rate? You guys burning money?
The burn rate is basically how much you spend versus your earnings if I'm not mistaken?
Fiercedeity
Banned
That's what kick-starter is.
skLaFarebear
Member
I don't know if a few weeks ago you told people that a KS for a new Igarashi game in the vania style was gonna hit more than 1.5 mil in a day, a lot of people would have called bs on that.
And I think a lot of thought did go into it with all the little side stuff like the achievements and the streaming and letting the famous youtubers in on it, the cool video, etc.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Sure, a very naive and simple way of stating what it is. There is a lot more work and planning that goes into a kickstarter campaign.
Finale Fireworker
Member
Successful Kickstarters are successful when they are advertise a product that convinces people to purchase the product based on concept to secure funding, or extra funding.
I don't understand what you're saying.
You seem to be having a different conversation here. Nobody said Kickstarters didn't take planning and clean operations, which any fundraiser requires to be successful. This does not change the definition of Kickstarter.
Kojirospath
Member
That's kick starter planning, not game planning. I'm positive a lot of planning went into the KS but that's not planning for the actual game.
Edit: I realize know you referred to my: they should have probably planned this better comment. With that I mean what to do when huge targets are reached fast en to quickly respond to developments.
skLaFarebear
Member
Well that I don't think we can really know until we see more about the game, but sorry for the misunderstanding.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
What's burn rate? You guys burning money?
The burn rate is basically how much you spend versus your earnings if I'm not mistaken?
In this case, it's how much an employee costs per month. That's more than their salary, sometimes drastically more.
As an indie, you have much less overhead than a big company would, but being self-employed and having your own business incurs a lot of expenses that you wouldn't have otherwise.