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[jorgeton]

I'm trying hard to wait and see what comes of this in Sansa's arc, but I am just sick of this show using Rape as a narrative tool. It's honestly disgusting and lazy. And every time the writers are confronted with it (like with Cersei and jaime's scene last year) they're all like "Wha? Rape? Naaah!"

They could've done a million things with Sansa in that wedding night scenario, but they went with the most lazy and offensive. It honestly felt like a shock for shock's sake to me.

 

[hythloday]

I mean, she agreed to marry the guy. What did she think was going to happen on a Westeros wedding night?

The show creator's defense of the scene is pretty bad too. They called it "a woman making a difficult decision." They came out to defend their last rape scene as well, claiming it was also not actually rape. This seems to be a recurring issue.

Did she really have a choice in the matter? She's on the doorsteps of the place when she's told she's going to marry him (not asked, "hey, I had this idea, is this cool with you?" but "I made this agreement that you're going to marry this guy. It's done, put your weddin' shoes on"), and the only other people around her are Littlefinger and his guards. What's she going to do, say "Nah, I'm not doing this, I'll see you all later" and leave on her own, with no support? Not really. He had every ability to drag her kicking and screaming into the castle and she knew it.

Edit: I forgot Littlefinger gave her an out (if he was telling the truth - he's Littlefinger, after all). Disregard.

Hold up, as a book reader who doesn't watch the show...

Spoiler

Sansa (the actual Sansa not a replacement) was raped?

The fuck?

Spoiler

Sansa takes Jeyne Poole's role.

My main issue with the event is that D&D were already diverging from the book at that point, so they had an opportunity to really change things and do something interesting, but they didn't. They just merged one character with another. It was gross in the books, it's still gross on the show. Maybe there's a big payoff, maybe there isn't.

 

[Zabka]

Spoiler

It's implied that Jeyne Poole was hidden working in one of Littlefinger's whorehouses. To me, maybe it's just me, but even though the actions done to her were far worse, at least she had some sexual experience beforehand, whereas Sansa had none. Then again, as I think about this maybe forced prostitution doesn't equate to a healthy sexual experience... Plus, Sansa at the end of last season was being built up as a player of the Game, hence the character redesign and it seemed she would actually become a powerful character. Instead, she is immediately pushed back into "other people are controlling her and doing awful things to her," ruining good character development.

I don't think being forced into prostitution would make being fucked by a dog any less humiliating.

The show is filled with swerves. Sansa still has time to grow.

 

[BFIB]

I wonder if the scene wouldn't have been depicted as bad had it just been Theon's reactions (which really was incredible acting for the scene), rather than actually hearing Sansa's cries in the background?

 

[BPoole]

Are the people outraged at this also outraged with the torture, incest, public execution, murder, gratuitous gore, attempted genocide, etc that appears regularly on the show?

Yes, rape is bad and horrific, but why does that spark so much anger when the show is constantly dark?

 

[neogaffer1]

Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen.

I wonder what kind of additional outrage there'd be if they had shown more of her 18/19 year-old body.

That's what confuses me a bit. It's not like this came totally out of nowhere.

Didn't read the thread because spoilers, but whatever people are complaining about, THIS IS WHAT YOU SIGNED UP FOR. It's Game of Thrones.

Watching someone get his head popped is cool, but a rape that you don't even see is somehow off limits?

People are actually upset? Was this their first time watching gam of thrones?

Pretty much. When will people stop being outraged at what happens in a fantasy world?


That said I don't think D&D are capable of saying anything about rape, other than "it's bad".

I mean, she agreed to marry the guy. What did she think was going to happen on a Westeros wedding night?

A big part of the problem is that it's handled much, much better in the books. To book readers, handling it the way the show did was a big slap in the face and just another symptom/side effect/whatever you want to call it of D & D not doing the greatest of jobs adapting the book, at least in many eyes (including mine).

 

[TheJollyCorner]

It was a very tragic scene, for sure, as the character in question just continuously gets psychologically and physically abused. There was a feeling of sadness and anger- and it was one of those moments where I thought to myself "really?" shortly after that scene occurred. I understand why it happened- the character that did it is a complete piece if shit from a family of shits. It's a dark and brutal world. All of that... but yes... it is starting to get overbearing now in the 5th season.
Waiting for 'comeuppance' in this show can be frustrating, as it seems the shitty people so often get what they want.

However, I still believe (I only watch the show) that there will be payoff for those of us that want to see these various damaged characters get their revenge. Perhaps that is misguided belief, but that's where I am.

When I see people say "I'm done", I can understand it. Maybe they've hit their breaking point. There have been beheadings, child murder, assassinations, dismemberments, body-horror, and rape already. Honorable people die, sometimes receiving the most disturbing deaths in the show. It's just brutal as hell.
For me- I will stick with it. I'll continue to hold out hope that the 'good guys' (using that loosely) will have their time.
I'm just wondering if this 'breaking point' for some people is simply because yet another horrible act was done to one of the more innocent and 'pure' characters in this dark world.

 

[Kusagari]

Honestly the worse thing about the scene is that it seems like it will be used to further Theon's character more than Sansa's.

The rape was expected. There was no other way that could have logically played out with the universe this is set in and the two characters involved.

But there's something kind of gross about the rape probably being used to enhance the character of the male watching.

 

[idlewild_]

Book spoilers leading up to the scene:

Spoiler

Its Jayne Pool (a friend of Sansa from winterfell) who poses as Sansa that gets married to Ramsay.
Its way worse, not only does he get Reek her lick her out before raping her but the description of the damage he inflicts on her body is sickening.I think he also makes him watch.

book spoilers:

Spoiler

pretty sure she's posing as Arya (edit: in the books.) also, now I'm confused as to why Ramsay and Sansa are in the same place, lol

 

[The Lamonster]

The show is filled with swerves. Sansa still has time to grow.

Just needs more hair dye.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Watching someone get his head popped is cool, but a rape that you don't even see is somehow off limits?

I'm assuming it's because more people have experience with rape then a beheading. I hate the scene because it's not in the book not because it's a rape scene in itself. It was handled as well as a horrible thing could be handled on tv.

Rape is such a horrible thing to witness for many people. Shit, That Shawshank scene and the Pulp fiction scene fucked me up more than any shooting.,

 

[bigkrev]

The outrage only means something if people actually stop watching the show, instead of just claiming they will and then watching it anyway, which is what normally happens in cases like this

 

[pantsmith]

I'm trying hard to wait and see what comes of this in Sansa's arc, but I am just sick of this show using Rape as a narrative tool. It's honestly disgusting and lazy. And every time the writers are confronted with it (like with Cersei and jaime's scene last year) they're all like "Wha? Rape? Naaah!"

They could've done a million things with Sansa in that wedding night scenario, but they went with the most lazy and offensive. It honestly felt like a shock for shock's sake to me.

How should that scene have been handled? What would have been more true to the characters?

 

[-griffy-]

Did she really have a choice in the matter? She's on the doorsteps of the place when she's told she's going to marry him (not asked, "hey, I had this idea, is this cool with you?" but "I made this agreement that you're going to marry this guy. It's done, put your weddin' shoes on"), and the only other people around her are Littlefinger and his guards. What's she going to do, say "Nah, I'm not doing this, I'll see you all later" and leave on her own, with no support? Not really. He had every ability to drag her kicking and screaming into the castle and she knew it.

Littlefinger fully gives her an out and says they'll turn around right there if she doesn't want to go through with it. She steels herself, you see her demeanor change, and she decides to do it.

 

[justjim89]

I saw all the outrage online before I watched it and... really? That's the horrible gratuitous rape scene that has everybody grabbing their pitchforks? She was already disrobing, albeit slowly, and at no point offered a protest vocal or otherwise.

I don't know, maybe I've just grown desensitized to horrific uses of rape in media, but that didn't even look like rape to me. It was kinda gross and sad, sure, but I wouldn't even put it in the top 20 most shocking things the show has done.

 

[gutshot]

And yet it's not seen "on page." I can't think of a reason why anyone would depict that scene. It could have been handled much better. But any type of subtlety is thrown out the window on this show.

I don't really remember what was or was not seen "on page" in the book. I just remember it was really disturbing to read and way more fucked up than what ended up on TV. I though they handled it pretty well on screen, not sure how it could have been handled better? I mean the rape itself is upsetting so even cutting the scene before the actual rape likely would have still garnered a similar response.

I think the one big mistake they made with the scene was having it close the episode. It was not a scene you want to end an episode on. I think the reaction

The producers have had no problem deviating from the book. They couldn't have deviated from this storyline? Of all of the shit that happened in the books, this is the plot they keep?
Let's forget about the fact that they are ruining any agency that the character they chose to use in this plot has slowly been building.


Jesus Christ.


Yes.

Character arcs don't have to be linear progressions upwards or downwards. Sansa can continue to gain agency and progress towards being a more proactive character despite this scene. It doesn't "ruin" anything. In fact, it's likely that this will spur her towards even more action.

 

[Future]

All the talk I hear about it kind of annoys me because nobody is mentioning that it is marital rape. While any form of rape is equally terrible, criticising Sansa's scene's rape and not the fact that it's also marital rape does an injustice to real life victims of marital rape that you don't hear much of. Marital rape is a big problem that goes unheard of and here is an opportunity to discuss more widely marital rape.

It's true. But there was no resistance in the episode. She had accepted this as part of her acceptance of the marriage. Is marital rape simply husband and wife having sex with neither party even hinting at a no?

It was horrific to watch cuz the audience knows Sansa and this dudes history and it was a disgusting thing to happen with her character. But Sansa herself showed no desire to stop the consomation of any marriage previous, including this one.

 

[The Adder]

How should it have been handled?

There is no other way that scene would have played out, given the world or the characters or any of the factors at play. Saying it didn't happen in the books is a ridiculous non-argument, because it would have if the setup was the same. Ramsey is a monster, Sansa married him, and their wedding night was the logical next step. It's true to the story.

I'm all for careful treatment of the subject, not just shoehorning it in for shock, but I'm struggling to think what else would have been true to the characters?

Don't have the scene. Like you said, there was no other way this could have gone. Just don't have the scene, everyone would know what happened that night without it, having it hang in the air unspoken makes it feel much weightier and less about gratuitous shock value.

 

[Owl]

I'm just not a fan of how the writers deal with sexual violence in general. Whenever they've added a scene of sexual violence it never makes a point. I feel that they throw it in there loosely for what they may think is edgy or something. Its a disgrace.

 

[Oldest Snake]

How should it have been handled?

There is no other way that scene would have played out, given the world or the characters or any of the factors at play. Saying it didn't happen in the books is a ridiculous non-argument, because it would have if the setup was the same. Ramsey is a monster, Sansa married him, and their wedding night was the logical next step. It's true to the story.

I'm all for careful treatment of the subject, not just shoehorning it in for shock, but I'm struggling to think what else would have been true to the characters?

Well there are your problems right there. This doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. At some point they sat down and said "Hey you know what? We should totally have Sansa go to Winterfell get raped by Ramsay!"

You can argue all you want about how it makes sense given the story they've written for the show (which I will agree with, 'cause if you fall into a lion's den then the lions will kill you) or how the show is the show and the books are the books (which does not make it immune from criticism but is a valid point to consider) but the fact remains that this was their decision.

 

[shadyspace]

Did she really have a choice in the matter? She's on the doorsteps of the place when she's told she's going to marry him (not asked, "hey, I had this idea, is this cool with you?" but "I made this agreement that you're going to marry this guy. It's done, put your weddin' shoes on"), and the only other people around her are Littlefinger and his guards. What's she going to do, say "Nah, I'm not doing this, I'll see you all later" and leave on her own, with no support? Not really. He had every ability to drag her kicking and screaming into the castle and she knew it.

Littlefinger told her that she didn't have to and she certainly did not feel threatened or pressured by Littlefinger. She knew what she was getting herself into. This is a sacrifice this character felt was worth making.

 

[Tak3n]

I think I I understand this one as we are all connected with sansa as even my wife was like..... No she is so innocent... So it felt much worse as here was a innocent girl being raped....

 

[Patapwn]

The show features countless scenes of outright torture and murder

Yet an offscreen rap scene is just too much...

 

[Frankenstrat]

That's what I thought too. I don't watch the show but I read the books years ago (and expect them never to be finished). It's really weird that they've started to diverge this much but it's especially disgusting since it was apparently was done to make Sansa's storyline more "interesting."

And

Spoiler

hiding after using a double

wouldn't be "interesting"? The hell is with these dudes?

 

[pantsmith]

Don't have the scene. Like you said, there was no other way this could have gone. Just don't have the scene, everyone would know what happened that night without it, having it hang in the air unspoken makes it feel much weightier and less about gratuitous shock value.

So it's fine if she gets raped, so long as we don't have to be there with her?

 

[The Jackdog]

That didn't happen in the books, place the blame on D&D for being shit showrunners who rely so much on excesses that this stuff feels exploitative. Nor do they have much benefit of the doubt after purposely editing a scene into a rape scene last season (once again, one that didn't occur in the books).

This season just might kill the show lol.

8 million people watched the first without counting on demand viewings.

it wont

 

[hythloday]

Littlefinger fully gives her an out and says they'll turn around right there if she doesn't want to go through with it. She steels herself, you see her demeanor change, and she decides to do it.

Oops. I guess I forgot that.

 

[DBT85]

Thought it was a well shot and poignant scene with both her cries and Theons reactions perfectly showcasing how harsh the realities of the situation were.

Just cutting away after he asks her to take her clothes off the first time wouldn't have cut it.

We have to feel her pain, Theons rage and be shown once again what an utter cunt Ramsey is. All three played their part excellently.

 

[Dennis]

I don't see why rape is worse as a narrative tool than other horrific acts like torture or graphic violence.

Yes rape is awful. So is brutal violence.

As for the specific scene, as rape in TV or movies goes it was quite toned down probably given the age of the actress. People seem mostly upset that something awful happened to a sympathetic character.

The torture scenes with

Spoiler

Theon

were way worse and at most people were upset they got boring because they kept dragging it out over many episodes.

 

[cwmartin]

Fiction depicts fiction and it is ridiculous to think the depiction of rape in fiction condones or subverts the tragedy of rape in real life.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm not outraged, I don't get worked out over such things, but I didn't like that scene.
I enjoy watching royalty getting murdered, I don't enjoy watching rape.

Yeah, you can have a strong and meaningful rape scenes on a tv show, it's been done before, but that wasn't one of them.
I think of GoT as well made pulp, it doesn't have anything to deep to say about, well, anything (at least not to me).

Maybe I'm a hypocrite for enjoying seeing people getting graphically murdered but don't enjoy watching people getting raped.
¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[jorgeton]

How should that scene have been handled? What would have been more true to the characters?

I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to figure that out, the writers are. But I can tell you that having Sansa raped is easily the most lazy plot point they could've come up with in that writer's room. And I know, it happened in the books to someone else, but at this point the Winterfell arc is so far removed from the books, that they could've adapted it differently.

 

[demon]

Were people this upset when Drogo raped Daenerys after they got married? Wasn't she crying while getting banged by him that first time too?

People are dumb. It's a fucking tv show, and Game of Thrones no less. Go outrage over something that deserves outrage.


Btw I'm sure she was aware she was going to have to lose her virginity to Ramsay, she just didn't know he was such a fucked-in-the-head sadist.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm just not a fan of how the writers deal with sexual violence in general. Whenever they've added a scene of sexual violence it never makes a point. I feel that they throw it in there loosely for what they may think is edgy or something. Its a disgrace.

Violence in general is treated the same in the GOT world. People kill for enjoyment in this show, why would rape be treated any different? Sadly this is how men in have acted in medieval times, fictional or in real history.

In fact they are being more sensitive than other acts of violence. I mean they showed Prynce Oberynn's eyes being crushed by a man's bare hands. At least they didn't show Sansa getting raped.

 

[Blackage]

Terrible and horrible shit happens on Game of Thrones to good people, news @ 11. The show makes it a point to drive this point home all the time. =/ I think people are still disillusioned that the good guys are gonna make a come back and we're gonna have a happy ending with biscuits and trumpets.

 

[neogaffer1]

It's true. But there was no resistance in the episode. She had accepted this as part of her acceptance of the marriage. Is marital rape simply husband and wife having sex with neither party even hinting at a no?

It was horrific to watch cuz the audience knows Sansa and this dudes history and it was a disgusting thing to happen with her character. But Sansa herself showed no desire to stop the consomation of any marriage previous, including this one.

Sansa's quite obviously not enjoying it this scene, and while she does not outwardly say no, she is quite obviously scared and being forced into the scenario. It's a rape in all but name.

Edit: Once again people, most of the outrage is that the scene was handled pretty poorly compared to what happens to the book, and specifically to who it happens to. It's like they don't even care about the subtlety of the books and are just trying to cram as many random things into the series as much as possible using the few characters people recognize. This is on top of them handling Jaime's storyline and Dorne altogether poorly, them cutting out major characters and entire major actions in the book.

 

[Sh1ner]

A big part of the problem is that it's handled much, much better in the books. To book readers, handling it the way the show did was a big slap in the face and just another symptom/side effect/whatever you want to call it of D & D not doing the greatest of jobs adapting the book, at least in many eyes (including mine).

I am so far hating the condensing of large arcs in the books too into very small bits in the show. I was told that GRRM only agreed to 7 seasons for the show and not 10 like HBO wanted. I don't blame D&D, they got so much content to pack in and so little time.

I absolutely hated the Dorne arc in ep 6. That was by far the worst offender, that is writing that I was genuinely pissed off with.

Sansa's rape just made me feel shitty and I felt bad for both her and Reek which is what the show was trying to get me to feel. It also did feel a bit cheap.

 

[n00bsauce87]

We should compile a list of things that has happened to people in this show. Just an excercise for watchers to understand what kind of show we are watching. Rape is horrible. And so is being stabbed in the stomach while carrying your unborn child. Jamie and Cersei was an issue, not this.

Someone also reminded me that Jeoffery off-screen raped the two prostitutes that Tyrion sent him.

That being said, I don't think we should mindlessly dismiss people taking issue with it.

 

[Skii]

I don't really understand the outrage tbh.

What Ramsey has done to Theon is far worse than what he's done to Sansa. I don't see why there's a sudden backlash now.

 

[Ovid]

I know it's Westeros and anything goes but I'm just tired of my favorite family getting the short end of the stick.

Anyway, Sansa getting raped didn't sit well with me but I still love the show.

 

[Dryk]

What a baffling change.

This season isn't handling the merging of characters very well, but it's not baffling. Television doesn't have the luxury to let its character wander in and out like books do.

Anyway, Sansa getting raped didn't sit well with me but I still love the show.

If it didn't then you'd probably have to take nice hard look at yourself

 

[Dice//]

AV Club reviewer Myles McNutt said it better than I could:

But in context, it’s a tough scene to take, and not necessarily in the way the show intends (as, to be fair, we’re meant to be disturbed by the scene). The issue with the show returning to rape as a trope is not simply because there have been thinkpieces speaking out against it, and is not solely driven by the rational concerns lying at the heart of those thinkpieces. It’s also that the show has lost my faith as a viewer that the writers know how to articulate the aftermath of this rape effectively within the limited time offered to each storyline in a given episode and given season. Three of the show’s main female characters have now been raped, and yet the show has struggled to make this a part of their character history—their rapes may function as narrative climaxes, but the rising action has never been particularly well-drawn, and the denouement has been non-existent.

-source

Not to completely stretch across the narrative field (and it's bad enough this scene wasn't in the book, annoying a LOT of the book readers), but when you look at Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo who is tragically raped then gets her revenge in the 'sweetest' fashion.

My memory is foggy, but has the show (or book) ever dealt with male rape?

 

[ultron87]

Well there are your problems right there. This doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. At some point they sat down and said "Hey you know what? We should totally have Sansa go to Winterfell get raped by Ramsay!"

You can argue all you want about how it makes sense given the story they've written for the show (which I will agree with, 'cause if you fall into a lion's den then the lions will kill you) or how the show is the show and the books are the books (which does not make it immune from criticism but is a valid point to consider) but the fact remains that this was their decision.

This is the important point for everyone that is like "well what would you expect to happen?" They weren't locked into this because they were doing an adaptation. They decided to make this the plot line. There are many other ways they could've gone. Sansa could have not been in Winterfell at all. She could have escaped from the situation before the wedding. She could have been more clearly making a willing decision on that night, even if she found it unpleasant. But nope. They had her get her dress ripped off and ended the episode with her screaming.

 

[kirblar]

I'm trying hard to wait and see what comes of this in Sansa's arc, but I am just sick of this show using Rape as a narrative tool. It's honestly disgusting and lazy. And every time the writers are confronted with it (like with Cersei and jaime's scene last year) they're all like "Wha? Rape? Naaah!"

They could've done a million things with Sansa in that wedding night scenario, but they went with the most lazy and offensive. It honestly felt like a shock for shock's sake to me.

Worst part is that Cersei/Jaime wasn't even supposed to be rape, they're just that incompetent.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I know it's Westeros and anything goes but I'm just tired of my favorite family getting the short end of the stick.

Anyway, Sansa getting raped didn't sit well with me but I still love the show.

No pun intended? Sorry couldnt resist.

I actually forgot about the cersei and Jaime scene. It is a bit weird how rape scenes are being added to main female chraracters.

 

[Glass Shark]

We already know Sansa has no control over her situation. We already know Ramsay is a terrible person. We already know Theon is tortured. This scene does not drive character development any further, it's for pure shock value.

 

[BFIB]

I think out of all of the changes from the books, the expansion on the sex scenes seem to be the one that doesn't sit well with me.

There are scenes in the books ("tastes salty m'lord"), but there are also ways you can film those scenes that don't have to be so detailed. The audience can figure out the scene if its off camera. Pretty sure we all knew when Ramsay told Theon to "stay and watch her become a woman", we clearly knew that his was sex that Sansa wouldn't approve of, which is rape.

 

[wenis]

It's game of thrones. Get over it people. Dudes are getting their heads crushed bare handed, plenty of villages are raped and pillaged and death is everywhere.

Sure it's an upsetting scene, but any reader of the book could easily tell you they're setting something up that will be gratifying for the viewer and a cathartic release for all the evil Sansa has had to endure.

It's a show. You don't like it, stop watching it.

 

[Jarmel]

The books already have enough rape without the show adding in more.

 

[Kuroyume]

For all the people confused as to why there's an outcry, you would need to understand that from a book reader's point of view, D & D are just handling things really badly and this scene specifically pretty much ruined this character's story arc in terms of where she is in the book compared to the show.

Spoiler

In the book she's becoming a manipulative, power hungry player of the game, as shown by the recently released TWOW chapter. Making her a pawn again like the show has undoes a lot of that.

That's not what this outrage is about though... I mean I'm sure some of the voices out there correspond to what you're saying but those voices have been complaning since season 1. This is a bigger outrage than usual.

This is more about the act of rape being on the show, period. To me the ourtage over that is just frustrating to deal with. I just want to know how these people can forgive the murder, mutiliation, torture of which has been a hallmark of this show but then react like this to the act of rape? Why is the killing of men and children okay, but rape is taboo? And then you have people brining up Theon having his genitals removed to suggest there's hypocricy over this outrage, and you have these idiots out there shutting down any sort of discussion about Theon and turning this into an MRA thing. So what do we take away from this? That rape can't be incorporated into any sort of fiction ever from now til the end of time, but killing is totally OK?

Fact is Ramsay is a monster. In the book a total monster. And we finally saw something close to book Ramsay on the show this past week. It's perfectly in line with his character. I don't like the idea of Sansa getting raped. And that's both from the perspective of a book purist and someone who doesn't like seeing good people hurt, but to say that a show shouldn't incorporate rape is too me a load of shit.

The books already have enough rape without the show adding in more.

Show barely shows any of these things. Show barely has any of the torture in the books. Show is totally watered down.