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[PeskyToaster]

Sex was different back then. Tightly governed as inheritances, land, and titles were on tje line. Although the work is fictional it is emulating medieval Europe and the marriages between the upper class weren't volintary, loving affairs and so most consummations weren't either. Sure, many weren't as cruel and weird as Ramsay but he's a psycho who hunts people. He's done plenty equal to this sort of thing in the show without the outrage.

 

[Allforce]

I knew this would get it's own thread eventually.

I can promise there won't be a single rape scene after this. They got their media attention last time, but you can't do it more than twice.

Isn't this like the 9th or 10th rape scene so far in 4 1/2 seasons? I can think of at least 5 off the top of my head and I know there's more.

 

[Future]

Sansa's quite obviously not enjoying it this scene, and while she does not outwardly say no, she is quite obviously scared and being forced into the scenario. It's a rape in all but name.

It's clear she doesn't want to. But she's sacrificing herself willingly. It sucks to watch sure, but she clearly knew what the marriage would lead to. And she did not make an attempt to avoid anything.

 

[DodgyGeezerFella]

This is a world in which, only last week, someone said they hung somebody's husband in a tree, then raped the wife underneath the body, then almost flayed her when she brought him the resulting baby.

This outrage just seems to be because its to a character people are rooting for, far worse has happened in the show.

 

[PhoenixDark]

How should that scene have been handled? What would have been more true to the characters?

Ramsay roughly ripping off Sansa's clothes as she and Reek realize what's about to happen, a close up on Sansa holding in tears (as the undressing continues), and then fade to black. The end. And then next episode we would see a clearly abused, frightened but strong Sansa continuing whatever plot D&D are planning. There will always be complaints about television shows and this subject but I guarantee you there would be significantly fewer with this approach.

There's a part in an earlier book where Arya runs into a woman who is so damaged that the only word she can say is "no." As a reader you don't know what happened to the woman...and yet you do know. My problem with D&D is that they seem to view that type of stuff and think "well, let's show why she only says no." The audience is smart enough not to have to be shown that shit. But handling it more subtle wouldn't give them the shock moments they clearly rely on. It's clear they have little faith in the audience, hence why we get shit like that. Or Dorne from Sunday and all the other forced action beats the show creates.

 

[Newt]

It's a TV show, lol. It's fantasy.

 

[fallengorn]

We'll see how it fits in the context of her story, but after all the instances where D&D inserted rape when there previously weren't in the source, it just left a really bad impression.

 

[Random Painted HIghway]

Oh, how nice of you McCaskill. Meanwhile there were 3 cases of alleged rape with Mizzou football, one being verified, and she goes on local radio here in St. Louis to offer support for Mizzou time and time again.

She has become quite an insufferable media wh...wait, I can't use that word can I....

 

[cwmartin]

AV Club reviewer Myles McNutt said it better than I could:


-source

Not to completely stretch across the narrative field (and it's bad enough this scene wasn't in the book, annoying a LOT of the book readers), but when you look at Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo who is tragically raped then gets her revenge in the 'sweetest' fashion.

That's certainly an interesting point. But you are not watching a show about rape revenge. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo had an entire storyline crafted in part about the revenge of rape. GoT does not.

 

[wenis]

This is a world in which, only last week, someone said they hung somebody's husband in a tree, then raped the wife underneath the body, then almost flayed her when she brought him the resulting baby.

This outrage just seems to be because its to a character people are rooting for, far worse has happened in the show.

Bingo

That's certainly an interesting point. But you are not watching a show about rape revenge. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo had an entire storyline crafted in part about the revenge of rape. GoT does not.

You don't know that yet tho. They're completely changing the story and without spoiling anything I have a feeling where they're going with all of this. We just don't know the resolution to this. Evil shit happens in game of thrones, but evil shit is also eventually dealt with in fucked up manners and a release of tension and anger for the viewer. The show is not great, but if anything they've gotten that formula down over the years.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

And

Spoiler

hiding after using a double

wouldn't be "interesting"? The hell is with these dudes?

Uh in the books

Spoiler

it's kind of a major plot point that Tyrion made a point of not raping Sansa, and that she basically gets through the entire mess relatively unscathed while the rest of her family was killed or missing.

Jeyne Poole wasn't a "double" to help someone hide, she was being forced to pretend to be Arya and forced into marriage and rape. None of this was OK, and I don't think it should have been in the book either, especially the explicit gross scene, but changing all of it to be Sansa just so her character is less "boring" is especially gross. Trying to "spice up" a female character by having her raped is just awful.

 

[darscot]

I actually thought it didn't fit at all. All Theon wants is a chance at redemption, At times you hate him but you know somewhere in there there is something good left. He would have acted. No chance for redemption now so I'm not sure what they are going to do with his character.

 

[Brakke]

"Rage" though? Those politician comments and that Mary Sue piece are pretty level-headed. People more repulsed than angry.

It's a show. You don't like it, stop watching it.

That's literally what is happening.

 

[jiggles]

Even though she certainly didn't assent, I'm not entirely sure the depiction in the show wasn't one of consent.

 

[NekoFever]

It's a pretty superficial reading of the material to say, "It's Game of Thrones so what did you expect?"

It's a brutal world, yes, but deaths and terrible events rarely happen just because. It's a routine thing that people die when they try to play the game of thrones without being ruthless and unscrupulous. That's kind of the point.

 

[Captain.Falafel]

Well there are your problems right there. This doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. At some point they sat down and said "Hey you know what? We should totally have Sansa go to Winterfell get raped by Ramsay!"

You can argue all you want about how it makes sense given the story they've written for the show (which I will agree with, 'cause if you fall into a lion's den then the lions will kill you) or how the show is the show and the books are the books (which does not make it immune from criticism but is a valid point to consider) but the fact remains that this was their decision.

I think this is one of the issues here. Separate from the over-the-top tumblr-esque easily outraged folk, just looking at it in the context of the show it seemed particularly gratuitous. Yes, there have been untold amounts of horrible, dark, twisted things happening in the world of the show. But, for the most part, I'd argue that they usually were doing either one of two things: 1. staying true to the source material (as far as i know, I only go off what the actual book readers have said) or 2. Furthering the story.

This scene falls into a bizarre grey area. By all accounts, this doesn't occur in the books. Fine. We've practically caught up with the source material now and increased divergences were inevitable. But did it further the story? Not in my eyes. We were given a season of Ramsay's depravity with the constant torture scenes. It's been beyond well-established that he is one of the more, if not the most, despicable character in the entire story. Was this a necessary addition to the show? One might argue that it's depicting how, despite his words to Littlefinger about not hurting her, he's going to treat Sansa. But you could equally argue that that was the entire point of the scene at the dinner table when he suggests that Theon give her away at the wedding. And I'd venture to guess that there's plenty more mistreatment coming Sansa's way from him anyway, just like we had to watch torture scene after torture scene last time around.

I'm not offended at the rape or its depiction. But I do question its necessity. It just seemed gratuitous to me.

 

[Warm Machine]

The only time the show has sickened me is when a character got his head crushed by another mans hands.

The last episode you could see coming a mile away. Drama needs conflict to work. If everyone just got along and they were not cruel and backstabbing there wouldn't be a show. As with everything in GoT, it will circle back.

 

[Corpsepyre]

It's the fifth season. FIFTH season. What are people expecting by now? Honey and gardens? It's Game of Thrones, and something like this should be expected. Just be glad the showrunners didn't do what happened in the books with a particular character that gets married to Ramsay. People.

 

[J-Rod]

It wasn't the depiction of sexual violence that bothered me as much as it felt like a reversal of Sansa's progression. After she played the lords of the vale, had a bit of a transformation in how she carries herself, came under the master player's tutelage, and even went as far as changing her appearance to bonk the audience over the head with it all, they go right back to same thing we've had for in the past 5 seasons, Sansa hell porn. I'm not throwing a fit over it or threatening to stop watching the show (not that anyone would give a fuck if I did), but it does get less entertaining and a bit tiresome, and I don't see anything wrong with viewers saying as much if that's how they feel.

 

[SummitAve]

We already know Sansa has no control over her situation. We already know Ramsay is a terrible person. We already know Theon is tortured. This scene does not drive character development any further, it's for pure shock value.

What? It's been established by Littlefinger that Sansa indeed has power and control. Her realizing this is why she goes through with the wedding night even though danger is obvious and apparent. We know she has an out, but she hasn't opted to use it yet because she no longer wants to be a passive player.

 

[fuzzyset]

Anyone who was/is "shocked" by this scene just haven't been paying attention to Game of Thrones. Disturbed? Unsettled? Sure. Between the Tyrell plot in that episode and the final scene, I felt terrible after the episode, but I was in no way shocked.

It (hopefully) serves an unknown narrative direction for Sansa (likely using her sexuality to her advantage as the other female leads have), and clearly served to demonstrate Theon's regret and realization of everything he's done to contribute to the downfall of the Starks.

 

[Kinyou]

That's certainly an interesting point. But you are not watching a show about rape revenge. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo had an entire storyline crafted in part about the revenge of rape. GoT does not.

And the whole story line in girl with the dragon tattoo actually felt a whole lot more unnecessary to me. I guess it tells us what kind of person Lisbeth is, but that it was so completely removed from the actual plot was very weird to me. Including this scene with Sansa made narrative wise more sense to me.

 

[MushroomSamba]

It's clear she doesn't want to. But she's sacrificing herself willingly. It sucks to watch sure, but she clearly knew what the marriage would lead to. And she did not make an attempt to avoid anything.

This is the way I saw it, too. She knew this was coming and is putting up with it the best she can. It was basically the goal Littlefinger set upon her since they returned to Winterfell...marry Ramsey, then wait for an opportunity to take revenge once she's part of their House. She's basically doing what she can to survive until that point, and this is yet another step for her to endure.

 

[Future]

Ramsay roughly ripping off Sansa's clothes as she and Reek realize what's about to happen, a close up on Sansa holding in tears (as the undressing continues), and then fade to black. The end. And then next episode we would see a clearly abused, frightened but strong Sansa continuing whatever plot D&D are planning. There will always be complaints about television shows and this subject but I guarantee you there would be significantly fewer with this approach.

There's a part in an earlier book where Arya runs into a woman who is so damaged that the only word she can say is "no." As a reader you don't know what happened to the woman...and yet you do know. My problem with D&D is that they seem to view that type of stuff and think "well, let's show why she only says no." The audience is smart enough not to have to be shown that shit. But handling it more subtle wouldn't give them the shock moments they clearly rely on. It's clear they have little faith in the audience, hence why we get shit like that. Or Dorne from Sunday and all the other forced action beats the show creates.

To be fair they handled it more subtly than they could have. I think they had to show Ramsey's craziness on display and some of her reaction to rally up certain emotions for the viewer

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I have to admit I was surprised at the outrage. This is the same character that

Spoiler

cut a dudes dick off and turned him into his own personal slave, and who's father just one episode prior told him the story about how he raped his mother under the hanging corpse of her husband

. Him doing depraved and disturbing shit is sort expected.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

What? There was already rape with

Spoiler

Cersei

a while back.

What's new with this?

 

[Ambient80]

Well there are your problems right there. This doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. At some point they sat down and said "Hey you know what? We should totally have Sansa go to Winterfell get raped by Ramsay!"

You can argue all you want about how it makes sense given the story they've written for the show (which I will agree with, 'cause if you fall into a lion's den then the lions will kill you) or how the show is the show and the books are the books (which does not make it immune from criticism but is a valid point to consider) but the fact remains that this was their decision.

No, I highly doubt that's what they sat down and said and were just done with it just like that. Stop over simplifying the situation to try to make a point. You're looking at this in a vacuum, without any idea where or how.this fits into her story. We have no idea where Sansa's story is going now, and she may very well get some extreme revenge even this season. Or, she could have her throat cut next episode and that'll be that. No one knows. Personally, I have no doubt that there was a pretty clear reason for all this happening. We just haven't seen it yet. Also, doesn't GRRM basically give his blessing for everything, or did he give that up?

 

[Eighty Deuce]

What? There was already rape with

Spoiler

Cersei

a while back.

What's new with this?

Nobody likes Cersei

Edit- if this outrage forces HBO to follow the source material and stop deviating from the books I can get behind it.

 

[trips]

They're not going to stop until every female character is raped, are they? #prayforarya

 

[Sh1ner]

We already know Sansa has no control over her situation. We already know Ramsay is a terrible person. We already know Theon is tortured. This scene does not drive character development any further, it's for pure shock value.

Same argument could be made for Ramsay in the books when he rapes Jayne Poole and has Reek involved whilst he laughs his ass off. Is it for shock value? We know he's a villain, theon is a victim, Jayne to become a victim just like everyone else comes near Ramsay.

What about all the times when Joffrey tortured Sansa mentally and physically? How he beat the whores off screen when they were sent to please him in any way possible?

Rape gets a special exemption on tv without realising this is a world where rape, murder, mutilation, ownership of slaves is common in the world.

AV Club reviewer Myles McNutt quoted in this thread by Dice// has it right. If in the next ep if Sansa needs to show how fucked up she is after what happened to her. What's worse I expect this to continue as Ramsay never stopped torturing Theon as he enjoyed tormenting him until Reek began to accept the loss of his fingers as shown in earlier of this season.

I expect the same to happen to Sansa in the show. I await more outrage next week.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

This is a show that had a montage including babies being slaughtered. For Christ's sake, this backlash is so weird.

 

[wenis]

"Rage" though? Those politician comments and that Mary Sue piece are pretty level-headed. People more repulsed than angry.



That's literally what is happening.

Then good. I hope they stick to it, but I doubt they will. Ya know? People want to talk a big game about this and that, but as soon as they're out of the zeitgeist or people stop caring and listening to them they'll go back to the show and maybe they'll get offended again or have the right gif to post or something. People are fickle.

 

[MHWilliams]

People saying they're done with GOT over other stuff this season: normal.

People saying they're done with GOT over an extra rape scene the writers decided to give Sansa: OUTRAGE CULTURE.

 

[cubicle47b]

I don't have a lot of faith in David and Dan moving forward. They've made (mostly) poor decisions when deviating from the books and they will be completely out of source material soon. This season isn't worth paying an HBO subscription for.

Personally, I found Theon's torture scenes more difficult to watch.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

Littlefinger told her that she didn't have to and she certainly did not feel threatened or pressured by Littlefinger. She knew what she was getting herself into. This is a sacrifice this character felt was worth making.

Littlefinger knew exactly what he was doing. He has an amazing talent in moving people in the direction he needs them to move.
It was like in Season 1 after Ned resigns as Hand. He's packing up, telling Jorrey (sp?) to get the girls ready, on his way out at that moment. Littlefinger immediately swoops in, as he knew that if Ned left that his

Spoiler

long con would fail

. All he simply does is plant an idea in Ned's mind. Ned could have easily said "fuck it", left with the kids, and the entire story changes dramatically. He knew exactly what to say to continue Ned's involvement, just as he knew exactly what to say to convince Sansa to carry on.

 

[The Lamonster]

This is a show that had a montage including babies being slaughtered. For Christ's sake, this backlash is so weird.

Western culture has always been more than okay with violence but sex and nudity is still very taboo.

 

[Kuroyume]

People saying they're done with GOT over other stuff this season: normal.

People saying they're done with GOT over am extra rape scene the writers decided to give Sansa: OUTRAGE CULTURE.

Yeah?

 

[Patriots7]

Littlefinger fully gives her an out and says they'll turn around right there if she doesn't want to go through with it. She steels herself, you see her demeanor change, and she decides to do it.

She did not have an out. Littlefinger would have abandoned his scheme after it was already arranged? Then the Bolton's would have known and been able to use the fact that Littlefinger has Sansa against him. She never had an out, and as poorly done as that scene outside Moat Cailin was done, she had no option available to her.
Did Littlefinger tell her when she was safely in the Vale? Before he had arranged the wedding? He didn't even tell her where they were going until she realized it.

Character arcs don't have to be linear progressions upwards or downwards. Sansa can continue to gain agency and progress towards being a more proactive character despite this scene. It doesn't "ruin" anything. In fact, it's likely that this will spur her towards even more action.

I hate this mindset. Women don't need to be raped to grow stronger. That's horrifyingly cliche and lazy writing.
She's been physically and psychologically assaulted for four seasons. This scene and this plot did not have to happen. But even if they did feel the need to include it, there are numerous ways they could have shown it that would not have resulted in this backlash. Every book reader knew what was going to happen the moment that we heard they were sending her to Winterfell.
But her rape is being used to advance someone else's character development. Jesus Christ.
But the show has done a shit job with Sansa for 5 seasons, so I don't even know why I expected anything more.

 

[The Adder]

So it's fine if she gets raped, so long as we don't have to be there with her?

It serves the narrative better, and has the added bonus of not seeming like they added a rape scene for the sake of adding a rape scene.

Let me put it this way. Scenes, especially scenes that can be perceived as being gratuitous, should either be moving the narrative forward, or providing information to the audience about the characters. If a scene does neither of these things, it is fluff, filler, or just plain gratuitous.

As you yourself said, Sansa married Ramsay Bolton. What does including that scene tell us about the characters that we don't already know? It doesn't inform us on any previously unobserved, or under observed, aspects of either Bolton or Sansa, or even Theon. It's just a scene of those three characters in a situation doing exactly what you'd expect those characters to do.

Having it implied and unspoken leaves it as the other shoe, waiting to drop. We can all assume what happened, and we're almost certainly right. But what if we're not? It leaves a sliver of hope that can later be crushed with a gut-punch in the story, or, if they wanted to (obviously they didn't), it leaves us expecting the obvious, only for the rug to be pulled out from under us.

Actually having the scene in there serves no purpose but saying "HEY, YOU KNOW HOW OBVIOUS IT IS THAT BOLTON'S GOING TO RAPE SANSA? HERE'S BOLTON RAPING SANSA!"

 

[soleil]

For all the people confused as to why there's an outcry, you would need to understand that from a book reader's point of view, D & D are just handling things really badly and this scene specifically pretty much ruined this character's story arc in terms of where she is in the book compared to the show.

Spoiler

In the book she's becoming a manipulative, power hungry player of the game, as shown by the recently released TWOW chapter. Making her a pawn again like the show has undoes a lot of that.

Haven't read any of the books, but I am not sold that being raped somehow means you're a pawn and that you can't become power hungry.

 

[Zoille]

I am outraged at the spoiler in the title. Thanks for that.

 

[I_D]

People do realize that pre-arranged marriages pretty much always begin with rape, right?

What are the chances that two strangers will actually love each other at first sight, and consummating the marriage will not be rape?

That's just how medieval times were. The real outrage should be aimed toward the places that STILL do this shit today.

 

[LevelNth]

And yet it's not seen "on page." I can't think of a reason why anyone would depict that scene. It could have been handled much better. But any type of subtlety is thrown out the window on this show.

Totally, our history shows us how subtle the Middle Ages was in all things. Why the show would depict a time like that as brutal, shocking and devoid of the social morals and ideals we have today is just strange.

 

[The Cowboy]

This is a show that had a montage including babies being slaughtered. For Christ's sake, this backlash is so weird.

Forgot this one, i was thinking its weird because we got to see Theon be tortured, then seduced and strait afterwards castrated - but yes there was an entire sequence in which we got to see babies and children murdered (did either of these scenes get such a backlash?).

I think the scene with Sansa was horrific, but i have no issue at all with it in the realm of the shows universe - this is the type of thing i expect considering all we have seen.

 

[Tuck]

Rape happens.

It shouldn't happen, but it does. Especially in a world like Game of Thrones, which is super violent and not nearly as civilized as ours. Though I don't watch the show, I doubt it portrayed the scene as a good thing.

 

[pantsmith]

Ramsay roughly ripping off Sansa's clothes as she and Reek realize what's about to happen, a close up on Sansa holding in tears (as the undressing continues), and then fade to black. The end. And then next episode we would see a clearly abused, frightened but strong Sansa continuing whatever plot D&D are planning. There will always be complaints about television shows and this subject but I guarantee you there would be significantly fewer with this approach.

There's a part in an earlier book where Arya runs into a woman who is so damaged that the only word she can say is "no." As a reader you don't know what happened to the woman...and yet you do know. My problem with D&D is that they seem to view that type of stuff and think "well, let's show why she only says no." The audience is smart enough not to have to be shown that shit. But handling it more subtle wouldn't give them the shock moments they clearly rely on. It's clear they have little faith in the audience, hence why we get shit like that. Or Dorne from Sunday and all the other forced action beats the show creates.

Sure, but she still ends up raped. Is there something to be said for us being there with her, and sharing her trauma? I thought they gave us enough to be horrified, but not enough to feel exploitative.

I don't have the right answer, but this conversation is helpful in getting closer to one.

 

[AngryMoth]

What are the viewership numbers like for GoT these days? I stopped watching towards the end of season 4 due to lack of interest / fear of tWoW spoilers.

Sansa gets married to Ramsey? Wth

 

[bengraven]

I'm trying hard to wait and see what comes of this in Sansa's arc, but I am just sick of this show using Rape as a narrative tool. It's honestly disgusting and lazy. And every time the writers are confronted with it (like with Cersei and jaime's scene last year) they're all like "Wha? Rape? Naaah!"

They could've done a million things with Sansa in that wedding night scenario, but they went with the most lazy and offensive. It honestly felt like a shock for shock's sake to me.

You should probably stay away from modern day dark fantasy novels. Especially Peter V. Brett and excepting Robin Hobb.

 

[Dice//]

It's a TV show, lol. It's fantasy.

I think it's way too simple to say that art doesn't imitate life and life doesn't imitate art to ANY even if a small extent. Rape should definitely not be trivialized, but GoT often does for the same of shock value or whatever else and to play on easy feelings of the audience with a quick directional addition (this instance not even being in the book and an addition for the sake of it). A fade to black would have been enough, but they went for the whole thing.

 

[gutshot]

I think this is one of the issues here. Separate from the over-the-top tumblr-esque easily outraged folk, just looking at it in the context of the show it seemed particularly gratuitous. Yes, there have been untold amounts of horrible, dark, twisted things happening in the world of the show. But, for the most part, I'd argue that they usually were doing either one of two things: 1. staying true to the source material (as far as i know, I only go off what the actual book readers have said) or 2. Furthering the story.

This scene falls into a bizarre grey area. By all accounts, this doesn't occur in the books. Fine. We've practically caught up with the source material now and increased divergences were inevitable. But did it further the story? Not in my eyes. We were given a season of Ramsay's depravity with the constant torture scenes. It's been beyond well-established that he is one of the more, if not the most, despicable character in the entire story. Was this a necessary addition to the show? One might argue that it's depicting how, despite his words to Littlefinger about not hurting her, he's going to treat Sansa. But you could equally argue that that was the entire point of the scene at the dinner table when he suggests that Theon give her away at the wedding.

I'm not offended at the rape or its depiction. But I do question its necessity. It just seemed gratuitous to me.

I think the necessity of the scene was to have a shared moment of horror between Theon and Sansa. Something that would cause her to feel sympathetic towards him and spur her towards planning an escape together. Given her treatment of him earlier in the episode, it seems likely the writers felt they needed an event like this to turn their relationship. You could argue that something like this was not necessarily needed for their alliance to occur, but I do think that that is the reason they put it in the show.