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[ivysaur12]

Why not wait until we see the conclusion of the matter before forming full-throated opinions?

No reason at present to assume it won't add to her character development. Every time you type or quote someone saying the word, "assume" you need to understand it just makes people more annoyed. Let it play out and offer your critique after the final stanza has played out. Otherwise, you just look like someone who has paused a movie a room full of people are watching in the middle to go on a long diatribe about something that may not even be an issue by the end.

Again -- I've stated why I have no faith in the showrunners to execute said plan, why I think the narrative structure of Game of Thrones makes such a thing unlikely, why I would be pleasantly surprised if such a thing did happen yet also my annoyance that "rape" would be the thing that turns Sansa into a STRONG character.

She willingly put herself into a situation where she would be raped by this awful human being. You can ask yourself what it says about her character that she would be willing to do that, knowingly having a choice to even go back to Winterfell. You could ask how these self-destructive acts could shape her character down the line, not too different to how Cersei may have been hardened by her years with Robert Baratheon. One of the show's major themes is the fluidity of power and subjugation. Her forcing herself into this game is going to have an affect on her as a character, we just need to see how it's going to play out.

What was her choice, though? What happens if Sansa says no? I can't imagine her living much longer. It's not like she's between "well, I can stay in the North and maybe get my kingdom back if I marry this man" or "I flee and be safe!" since, at this point, there's nowhere to go. She didn't really make a choice as much as confirm the only option that she had.

Which, again -- why put the wedding this early in the season? I'm dubious on whether this will actually be dealt with in the next few episodes, so it comes across, at least now, as an excuse to have something HORRIBLE happen to Sansa that I'm worried will never be dealt with.

 

[Ferrio]

Again -- I've stated why I have no faith in the showrunners to execute said plan, why I think the narrative structure of Game of Thrones makes such a thing unlikely, why I would be pleasantly surprised if such a thing did happen yet also my annoyance that "rape" would be the thing that turns Sansa into a STRONG character.

What if she doesn't change at all?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

And at some point, it isn't interesting to watch. Characters will no arc and no agency and not even a sliver of desire for agency make boring and bad TV.

This is the dilemma though. I'd argue that intersecting all these characters at Winterfell (the Boltons, Sansa, Theon, Brienne/Pod) will, in the end, make for much better tv than all these characters having separate, barely related arcs.

But as a consequence (though I don't think it was inevitable) a character we love went through something awful. Is it more important to tell what you think is a better story or is it more important to avoid showing characters we like go through awful things?

 

[Wreav]

I don't buy into all the trope talk for this particular scene.

• Ramsey had just told Sansa that he "wants her to be happy". Up to this point, Sansa has not witnessed first hand his cruelty, only what she can see of it through Theon.
• Sansa, like so many Starks, overplayed her hand and put herself in a defeating situation, and is now paying the price for it.
• There are implied ramifications for having had Theon witness it.

The scene was the boldest possible underlining of who Ramsey really is for Sansa, and served to show her how utterly fucked she is in this marriage, no pun intended.

 

[Mesoian]

What if she doesn't change at all?

What if she gets worse/weaker/becomes trivial?

 

[SummitAve]

What if she gets worse/weaker/becomes trivial?

Or what if she was already strong?

 

[MikeyB]

Unless people are mad that it was boring and predictable, there's no reason to be mad. The show has set the rules already, this rape scene is a blip at best compared to what has happened before in the show.

That's fair. The show has had dick in a box, brutal murders, burning alive, and the perpetrator of this crime is a guy whose family flag is a person skinned alive.

Losing collective shit about this is a reflection of a current (and good) obsession with gender issues rather than the show doing something unusual.

I'm guessing that this may not have been an issue if the rest of the season was full of more interesting and important events or more likeable characters.

 

[Kinyou]

Again -- I've stated why I have no faith in the showrunners to execute said plan, why I think the narrative structure of Game of Thrones makes such a thing unlikely, why I would be pleasantly surprised if such a thing did happen yet also my annoyance that "rape" would be the thing that turns Sansa into a STRONG character.

Though it wouldn't be what prompts her to turn into a strong character, would it? More like an obstacle she has to face on her way to power. Her character change clearly happened previously and that she's willing to go through with something like this only shows it.

 

[Blader]

Bolton is from a northern family who betrayed and murdered the Starks and who is currently going around flaying people. The Northerners would most likely support Stannis anyway even if Sansa was in the Vale.

This is a very weak reason to put up with marrying and being raped by a psychopath.

Scenario 1: Stay at vale. Stannis wins. Boltons die. Sansa is never in any danger.

Scenario 2: Stay at vale. Bolton wins. Then propose marriage and do this current stupid suicide assassination mission.

Scenario 3: Marry Bolton without waiting for Stannis because she wants to be raped. Or rather, the writers do. Because it makes no sense for her to decide to put herself there when Stannis is already on his way to kill the Boltons.



Stannis would give her control anyway for the same reason he tried to give control to Jon.

You keep forgetting that this was never Sansa's plan in the first place, it's Littlefinger's. Sansa didn't know she was riding to Winterfell to marry Ramsay until she was there. The whole point is for Littlefinger to have an in where he can assume control of the north no matter who wins the Stannis/Bolton battle.

Waiting for Stannis to arrive and enduring whatever abuse Ramsay doles out in the meantime is how Sansa is choosing to play her part in what is originally not her plan (but advances her own desire for revenge anyway, which is why she chooses to roll with it).

 

[ultron87]

Though it wouldn't be what prompts her to turn into a strong character, would it? More like an obstacle she has to face on her way to power. Her character change clearly happened previously and that she's willing to through with something like this only shows it.

If that's the story they are trying to tell they did an incredibly bad job showing this was a thing she was willing to go through with.

 

[Wreav]

If that's the story they are trying to tell they did an incredibly bad job showing this was a thing she was willing to go through with.

Her choosing to stay and marry is her willingness. Are you daft? She knows the history of the Boltons quite well.

 

[Hex]

You actually see the consequences for a lot of the other brutality or it at least informs the audience of something about the world or the characters. People remember when horrible things like the butcher's boy getting murdered by The Hound happen and hold the characters accountable for it later on. The rapes, so far, have basically just been there as window dressing as "another horrible things that the horrible people do" or get quickly forgotten about.

We do not know what will come of this, Sansa has while going through some bad things escaped pretty much unscathed.
She has always had someone step in one way or another. The Hound, Little Finger, Tyrion or someone else.
And this time, I bet so many were sitting there just waiting for someone to step in again or something to happen to interrupt.
She was still a virgin, she still had all her limbs, was not maimed.
But this time it didn't.
As much as those who only see the rape will never admit it, there was so much at play in the scene and the finality of it happening was huge.

 

[Mesoian]

Or what if she was already strong?

Tune in next week for the next episode of Dragon Ball Z.

 

[AppleMIX]

You keep forgetting that this was never Sansa's plan in the first place, it's Littlefinger's. Sansa didn't know she was riding to Winterfell to marry Ramsay until she was there. The whole point is for Littlefinger to have an in where he can assume control of the north no matter who wins the Stannis/Bolton battle.

Waiting for Stannis to arrive and enduring whatever abuse Ramsay doles out in the meantime is how Sansa is choosing to play her part in what is originally not her plan (but advances her own desire for revenge anyway, which is why she chooses to roll with it).

It's also should be know that Little Finger knows almost nothing about Ramsey.

 

[metalslimer]

It's also should be know that Little Finger knows almost nothing about Ramsey.

Littlefinger knows what kind of person he is.

 

[Corpekata]

It's also should be know that Little Finger knows almost nothing about Ramsey. Little Finger doesn't think he's leaving her with the most evil man in all of westeros.

How could he not know about him? He at the very least knows how Ramsay took Winterfell and what he did there, and we've seen he's pretty well connected, so would likely have a decent picture of him. He might not have been a Bolton at the time but he the acting head of the most powerful family in the north while Roose was away.

 

[mantidor]

I think a lot of the furor has far more to do with our familiarity with the character than any structural or thematic concerns, which is kinda messed up if you think about it, because there is a great deal of brutal rape in the books which have never ever been subjected to this level of outrage.

And I would suspect that this is not because it's not awful but because it's not happening to characters we don't care about or know, a sort of callousness towards the proverbial cannon fodder in the books.

Being more upset about a familiar or central character is not some sort of monstrous thing, it's expected and normal.

Also the writing has several problems, and using rape as a plot device for growth of any character is cheap, those criticisms are just as valid. If they are going that route.

Not to mention the criticism about the adaptation itself. They are combining two characters that make no sense.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Littlefinger knows what kind of person he is.

He damn sure does. And you know what? He spent give a single fuck. Just another pawn to move on the board.

 

[AppleMIX]

Littlefinger knows what kind of person he is.

How could he not know about him? He at the very least knows how Ramsay took Winterfell and what he did there, and we've seen he's pretty well connected, so would likely have a decent picture of him. He might not have been a Bolton at the time but he the acting head of the most powerful family in the north while Roose was away.

he says it right here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_V8210JoCo

Unless you have evidence to say he's lying.

 

[Red Comet]

I think the scene had its intended effect, which was to be disturbing. It would be problematic if it was treated flippantly or if it's effects on Sansa were downplayed. Time will tell how they handle it.

 

[Ramma2]

It's also should be know that Little Finger knows almost nothing about Ramsey.

lol their flag is a man with his skin peeled off. Everyone in the 7 kingdoms knows what kind of family the boltons are.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

How could he not know about him? He at the very least knows how Ramsay took Winterfell and what he did there, and we've seen he's pretty well connected, so would likely have a decent picture of him. He might not have been a Bolton at the time but he the acting head of the most powerful family in the north while Roose was away.

No one alive besides Reek and Ramsay knows who burned and pillaged Winterfell, everyone believes it was the work of the fleeing Iron Men. Roose says as much to Robb back in S2 or 3.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't buy into all the trope talk for this particular scene.

• Ramsey had just told Sansa that he "wants her to be happy". Up to this point, Sansa has not witnessed first hand his cruelty, only what she can see of it through Theon.
• Sansa, like so many Starks, overplayed her hand and put herself in a defeating situation, and is now paying the price for it.
• There are implied ramifications for having had Theon witness it.

The scene was the boldest possible underlining of who Ramsey really is for Sansa, and served to show her how utterly fucked she is in this marriage, no pun intended.

You just listed two tropes

Rape to prove ultimate evil: Trope
Rape to motivate a male character to act: Trope

 

[Opto]

She willingly put herself into a situation where she would be raped by this awful human being. You can ask yourself what it says about her character that she would be willing to do that, knowingly having a choice to even go back to Winterfell. You could ask how these self-destructive acts could shape her character down the line, not too different to how Cersei may have been hardened by her years with Robert Baratheon. One of the show's major themes is the fluidity of power and subjugation. Her forcing herself into this game is going to have an affect on her as a character, we just need to see how it's going to play out.

So getting raped is her fault.

Wow.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Littlefinger knows what kind of person he is.

I mean, he should, but the writers have stated that he actually doesn't know.

Which is odd I think but there it is.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Scene was OK. I would put pregnant woman stabbing to be the highest of cruel in this show.

 

[The Silver]

lol their flag is a man with his skin peeled off. Everyone in the 7 kingdoms knows what kind of family the boltons are.

Roose Bolton sure, everyone knows what he's like.

Ramsey? the bastard who was suddenly given a name? Who knows.

 

[Cybit]

It doesn't sit well with me, especially because we almost never see the emotional fallout for the survivor. Contrast that with the SOA comparison I made earlier, that handled rape so much better than GoT has ever done (I can't believe I'm giving that show praise for its depiction of sexual assault, but here we are).

If we were actually enraging with these characters on what it means to be a survivor, than that's a whole different beast. But we're not.

The reason I suspect this one might be different is that it's a deliberate character change by D&D as opposed to just an interpretation of already existing moments. Also; I do think S5 and onward are going to be different because this is the first season where I think they know they're going to pass the books, and they're working from general plot awareness as opposed to following the books directly.

I do think something will happen with Sansa, and it will probably not be what we expect. My guess would be that the producers know something goes south between Sansa and LF in TWOW from Martin, and this is them precipitating that event without necessarily having the details.

How is Sansa 'levelling up' due to a spot if rape preferable to having her become a stronger person sans rape? It's cheap and lazy.

It is preferable to what the books had, which was a minor character created to be raped for Theon's leveling up only.

 

[Foggy]

What was her choice, though? What happens if Sansa says no? I can't imagine her living much longer. It's not like she's between "well, I can stay in the North and maybe get my kingdom back if I marry this man" or "I flee and be safe!" since, at this point, there's nowhere to go. She didn't really make a choice as much as confirm the only option that she had.

Which, again -- why put the wedding this early in the season? I'm dubious on whether this will actually be dealt with in the next few episodes, so it comes across, at least now, as an excuse to have something HORRIBLE happen to Sansa that I'm worried will never be dealt with.

She could have gone on a boat ride just like Tyrion did. I don't know, she could have done anything. She was protected and it's not like Littlefinger intimated that he was going to kick her to the curb. I'm certain there's a reason for doing it and it's not because Littlefinger forced her to. She put herself in that situation after Littlefinger laid it out for her, she knew what was coming, and she did it despite the incredible emotional distress of just being around the man. That's a lot of agency. That says something about her character. How she reacts to the complete ordeal, including multiple(I'm assuming) rapes, is going to shape a character. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this can shape her character in many different ways. I mean, go a ahead and be dubious about when and how it's going to happen but skepticism is a world away from outrage.

 

[AppleMIX]

lol their flag is a man with his skin peeled off. Everyone in the 7 kingdoms knows what kind of family the boltons are.

Almost all of Westeros believes the Bolton's stopped flaying ages ago.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Being more upset about a familiar or central character is not some sort of monstrous thing, it's expected and normal.

Also the writing has several problems, and using rape as a plot device for growth of any character is cheap, those criticisms are just as valid. If they are going that route.

Not to mention the criticism about the adaptation itself. They are combining two characters that make no sense.

Combining these two characters makes perfect sense. We don't have to like it or think it's the right decision but given who the character is supposed to be in the books, Sansa makes sense as a substitute.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Normally I'd laugh and say that GRRM claims another victim but

Spoiler

t

Spoiler

hat shit wasn't even in the books, at least with not that character. The hell D&D?

He's been teasing for years now about this.

It's gonna be on the next book.

 

[RedShift]

Almost all of Westeros believes the Bolton's stopped flaying ages ago.

Littlefinger is expected to be a bit more discerning than just believing what 'almost all of Westeros' believes.

 

[UrbanRats]

Again -- I've stated why I have no faith in the showrunners to execute said plan, why I think the narrative structure of Game of Thrones makes such a thing unlikely, why I would be pleasantly surprised if such a thing did happen yet also my annoyance that "rape" would be the thing that turns Sansa into a STRONG character.

I didn't have a big problem with the scene (although it felt sort of redundant and useless, but that's thanks to a redundant and bidimensional character like Ramsey) and, though i'm curious where they're going with it, that would be just about the lamest and most boring direction to take.

Don't know if GoT writers are better than that, we've seen some hilariously bad moments throughout the seasons, but i'm gonna stay optimistic about it.

Personally i think the biggest impact on Sansa's character may be on her relationship with Littlefinger, which wasn't really that clear, how much she trusted the guy, and how much she was just going along to gain some future leverage.
I think this may change things, because she seems to make a choice to submit herself to the "torture" of what marrying Ramsey entailed, in past episodes, yet she was visibly surprised when Ramsey told her to remove her clothes, in this one.

It's not really clear whatever the fuck is going on in Sansa's head, and what level of awareness for the world she lives in she has.
Not sure if it's due to bad writing, or because things are about to unravel in unexpected ways.

I did think people expecting her to have made a 180° turn, when she dyed her hair, were being delusional though.

 

[TCRS]

watched the episode today because of spoilers fucking everywhere. I was planning on watching it tomorrow with a nice dinner. anyway that scene was difficult but I don't get the outrage. It makes perfect sense in the fucked up shock value show they created.

It is preferable to what the books had, which was a minor character created to be raped for Theon's leveling up only.

Winds of Winter spoiler? well fuck me timbers, getting spoiled everywhere. almost past caring now.

Tune in next week for the next episode of Dragon Ball Z.

lol

 

[Hex]

Hey look, a female piece not hating it.
They exist though I think we are supposed to think that every female is outraged.
Linked from Westeros

 

[AppleMIX]

Littlefinger is expected to be a bit more discerning than just believing what 'almost all of Westeros' believes.

To be fair, I think they only started flaying recently(at least in public).

 

[Futureman]

I think there's such a vocal reaction because the show seems to have such broad appeal. Like almost everyone I know watches it.

I don't watch it because I don't really enjoy the middle ages fantasy setting and I can't really stand media that leans so heavily on depicting violence.

 

[Dennis]

Hey look, a female piece not hating it.
They exist though I think we are supposed to think that every female is outraged.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/05/19/the_rape_scene_on_sunday_s_game_of_thrones_was_necessary_and_sansa_deserves.html?wpsrc=fol_tw"]Linked from Westeros[/URL]

Your link is broken.

 

[curlyfriski]

Trashy exploitative show remains trashy, exploitative.

 

[Kinyou]

So getting raped is her fault.

Wow.

That's not what he said at all. But she did know what she was getting into when she agreed to marry him. That they wouldn't drink a cup of tea during their wedding night was obvious. That she was still willing to get married says something about her character and how much she has changed since season 1.

 

[RedShift]

He's been teasing for years now about this.

It's gonna be on the next book.

Spoiler

Ramsey raping Sansa will almost 100% not be in the next book.

Littlefinger possibly, but even then probably not.

TWOW Preview Chapter

Spoiler

Her relationship with her likely future husband seems to be very different. He's a bit of a jerk but she seems to have the upper hand in their relationship.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Littlefinger is expected to be a bit more discerning than just believing what 'almost all of Westeros' believes.

I have to agree. He is one of the most well-informed men in all the 7 kingdoms. But if the writers said he didn't know....he didn't know. So I wonder if he'll ever find out and what might happen? Whether he knew or not, he certainly presented himself as well prepared to drop Sansa for Cersi to get the keys to the North. In the end, I see no reason to believe he wouldn't let her suffer and die to get himself closer to the Iron Throne. So even if he had known, I don't really think he would have done anything differently. He has not shown that he cares about anyone but himself and his own ambitions. Such is the mettle of a man who spent his time as a pimp.

That's not what he said at all. But she did know what she was getting into when she agreed to marry him. That they wouldn't drink a cup of tea during their wedding night was obvious. That she was still willing to get married says something about her character and how much she has changed since season 1.

No, she really didn't. I'm about 99% sure she thought the stories about him were made up by his little lover to scare her away. And she was so blinded by hate for Theon, she didn't see what it could mean for her own safety and livelihood.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

So getting raped is her fault.

Wow.

It's a means to an end. From her perspective, she's performing her wifely duties. It's certainly rape, but it's made quite clear that she's allowing it to happen.

I mean, he should, but the writers have stated that he actually doesn't know.

Which is odd I think but there it is.

Even Robb and Theon who spent their whole adolescent lives up north had never heard of Ramsay Snow. Roose kept him hidden his whole life. His first job as an official envoy of the Boltons is when Roose gave him the simple task of freeing a castle being held by 30 men; he turned it into a massacre just for the evlulz and to make everyone hate Theon more.

Obviously his ex-gfs and enemies don't tell stories.

 

[Jenov]

Trashy exploitative show remains trashy, exploitative.

But it's oh so fun to watch!

 

[Arthr2ShdsJcksn]

Trashy exploitative show remains trashy, exploitative.

Well, it worked for Shakespeare.

 

[MHWilliams]

Hey look, a female piece not hating it.
They exist though I think we are supposed to think that every female is outraged.
Linked from Westeros

OMG, people have different ideas and women aren't a monolith! OMG, people who didn't like the scene are also men!

That doesn't make sense with how I approach the world!

 

[excelsiorlef]

Hey look, a female piece not hating it.
They exist though I think we are supposed to think that every female is outraged.
Linked from Westeros

Cool?

I mean congrats you found a woman.

 

[UrbanRats]

It's a means to an end. From her perspective, she's performing her wifely duties. It's certainly rape, but it's made quite clear that she's allowing it to happen.

You're assuming this, right? Because watching the episode, she looked like she was absolutely caught by surprise, by having to "lay" with Ramsey.
I don't think she's playing some long game there, to be honest.

 

[THRILLH0]

The problem with the scene is that it doesn't serve the story in any way. We know Sansa's life is a burning tire fire. We know Ramsay is a sadistic psychopath.

The fact that Sansa isn't raped in the books makes it even worse. The writers have changed things up in such a way that the equivalent scene from the book isn't necessary but they made the conscious decision to put it in. It was a rape for the sake of rape and that's why it's a terrible scene.