More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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NickFire
Member
Stick to the Friday the 13ths then. They are full of females whose obstacles are exactly the same as the men's. Or Izombie. Her obstacle is she's a zombie. Or any other show without rape. But if you choose to watch GoT, you should expect lots of rape and other depraved things.
I don't have an issue with this because rape shouldn't be portrayed in the show (though I definitely think it could have been more tastefully handled), I mostly just think it was terrible character development, and they just used rape as a tool to get that precious 'shock value' the show seems to be obsessed with.
Sansa's arc seemed to be that she was learning to play the game, including manipulating men. Now she not only gets raped by her new husband, but he humiliates her in front of the man she thinks killed half her family. A large chunk of my problems with the scene would be gone if Sansa had asserted that Theon had to leave, and she had managed to preserve some small scrap of her dignity. As it is they just undid all of her character development since Season 2, soley for the purpose of furthering Theon's arc.
And putting that aside, the idea Littlefinger would do this to Cat's daughter is so ridiculous. And it's ridiculous that the Boltons would rebel against the crown. But hey, doesn't matter if characters act in a way that makes sense as long as we can get a shocking rape scene in.
Sansa's arc seemed to be that she was learning to play the game, including manipulating men. Now she not only gets raped by her new husband, but he humiliates her in front of the man she thinks killed half her family. A large chunk of my problems with the scene would be gone if Sansa had asserted that Theon had to leave, and she had managed to preserve some small scrap of her dignity. As it is they just undid all of her character development since Season 2, soley for the purpose of furthering Theon's arc.
And putting that aside, the idea Littlefinger would do this to Cat's daughter is so ridiculous. And it's ridiculous that the Boltons would rebel against the crown. But hey, doesn't matter if characters act in a way that makes sense as long as we can get a shocking rape scene in.
Pyramid head
Banned
How is Sansa 'levelling up' due to a spot if rape preferable to having her become a stronger person sans rape? It's cheap and lazy.
afternoon delight
Member
Sounds to me exactly like the mentality that leads to 'objectionable content' censorship.
And my response is that I'm a little sick of the big thing that has to be a catalyst for a woman is her rape.
Even when dealing with the emotional fallout (which most don't), it's a tired device.
How on earth do you think she could of managed that?
Yes she's grown, but I don't see how character growth has suddenly given her pull in the universe.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
He's the exact same character, and she still has the exact same problem - he just wants to plow her from behind, she brings the variety and romance to their bedroom after a while.
But yes, he's more gentle the first time, there's quite a bit of foreplay they don't show in the TV show.
what a click bait title.
Did she not already go through with a marriage to the son of the man who killed her mother and brother, the uncle of the man who killed her father?
At what point does this moronic retread of a storyline exemplify her being stronger?
TO QUOTE ME:
Alright, I'm out. I wanted to have a good discussion (which a lot of you had!), but "lol don't watch" is where I draw the line.
This has had a lot of repercussion specially because people have been following the show for five years, back when the actress was 13 years old. People have grown with her and her character, that plus the complete change in her story arc and people are going to be obviously upset.
How do you know it's a catalyst or device if the next episode hasn't aired and this doesn't happen in the books?
The bedding that proceeds a wedding has been a reoccurring issue throughout the series. They could just go about whatever business or other plan and never mention or call back to this again
You've just used an example which reinforces the point people are trying to make against the scene.
Irreversible spent the entire film dealing with the fallout of rape.
Fenderputty
Banned
I do t really get this "women get raped as a catalyst trope" thing.
Maybe I just don't watch a ton of TV, but I don't see rape scenes often enough for me to consider this a common trope.
Maybe I just don't watch a ton of TV, but I don't see rape scenes often enough for me to consider this a common trope.
And how GoT deals with this scene's aftermath we know because...?
We're making assumptions based on the way they've dealt with the subject in the past where it was either forgotten or used as scene dressing. I would love to be surprised by them handling it well.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I think a lot of the furor has far more to do with our familiarity with the character than any structural or thematic concerns, which is kinda messed up if you think about it, because there is a great deal of brutal rape in the books which have never ever been subjected to this level of outrage.
And I would suspect that this is not because it's not awful but because it's not happening to characters we don't care about or know, a sort of callousness towards the proverbial cannon fodder in the books.
Yeah somebody bolded that line for me, as I missed it the first time.
Already said that isn't really acceptable in any form.
excelsiorlef
Member
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory
More focused on backstory but it's a trope.
This is my favorite one btw
Yup. And the fact the format of the show, with its massive cast and scale, isn't really ideal to address the character implications of such a scene.
Okay, but plenty of things were used as "scene dressing" in that sense. I mean, it's a fucking violent world and really bad things happen to almost anybody. If you use the idea of "properly" handling this rape scene as a benchmark, was there anything horrible happening to anyone in the whole series that was dealt with "properly" in that sense? If not, why even expect rape being the exception?
That's my idea on the matter. It was fucked up.
The show this season is a mess, irregardless of the changes, it seems weaker than prior.
Let me amend:
What does this accomplish for Sansa, narratively? Again, I haven't seen the last 4 episodes, but I'm struggling to think of an answer, given where this season has been and the ways in which the show has dealt with rape in the past, I'm not expecting this to actually contribute to some sort of arc for Sansa because she's already as kicked down as she can be at the moment. And that's just a micro concern, not even a macro concern about the laziness of using rape as a catalyst for change.
And if we're only depicting a rape in order to develop a male character, come the fuck on.
This. A thousand times this.
Also worth mentioning is that I am quite exhausted with the characters continued victim-hood.
And rape as plot development is icky. More than most crimes, rape holds a 'special' place in the collective psyche.
Exploiting that position as these writers continue to do is VERY lazy.
Couldn't agree more. The snorefest of the pacing with Daenerys' plotline is a far worse offense.
You haven't seen the last 4 episodes? Get the fuck outta here with this baseless contextless nonsense then...
Do you just watch a show to watch bad things happen to characters with no resolution?
In don't think it means you should accept it, after all can you always just stop watching the show. It's just the explanation why the show is like it is.
Sure tons were dealt with properly!
Cersei murdering bastards (including children) told us a lot about Cersei's devotion to protecting her kids and also drove Gendry's plot forward by getting him out of King's Landing.
Ned died as the inevitable result of his character arc, set expectations for the story as a whole, and was the driving force for basically the rest of the series. We've seen basically every character react to and process it. Same thing with the Red Wedding.
Can Crusher
Banned
Incredibly tame scene, the outrage is pure nonsense.
No one is mad about it's relative tameness or lack thereof.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Who's to say her story arc is to be stronger? Sometimes your story arc is getting stabbed in the uterus.
Sansa was raised to be a submissive, baby-bearing wife to a dashing young Lord.
She has no particular skills outside of knitting and singing and being pretty. And now she knows how to lie.
Being stronger does NOT mean becoming a spunky Disney princess (I almost lol'd at the suggestion that she force Ramsay to leave Theon outside. Fucking how?). I've seen posters in the no spoiler thread complain when Dany feeds people to her dragons, crucifies or beheads slavers and murderers, or when she makes the unilateral decision of marrying for peace rather than love. Dany is a powerful person. She makes decisions that get people killed every day. Sansa has no power. Her decision to go along with the wedding to Joff, the wedding to Tyrion, and her decision to reveal herself at Winterfell, are exercising the only power she has had so far; being a suitable bride from a powerful family that demands loyalty from a rather large swath of land. If she didn't have her name, Ramsay would turn her into hamburger within a week. Being his bed slave is exercising power - if Stannis fails, her having his children gives her power over the North.
It's not progressive, but that's life in the middle ages.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
So...how did people react to the the Khal Drogo and Dany rape scene in season 1?....
This was a lot less explicit in comparison.
Or Craster's Keep where a man kept his daughters to rape and father their children. Or is that all okay because we don't get to hear their cries?
This was a lot less explicit in comparison.
Or Craster's Keep where a man kept his daughters to rape and father their children. Or is that all okay because we don't get to hear their cries?
And at some point, it isn't interesting to watch. Characters will no arc and no agency and not even a sliver of desire for agency make boring and bad TV.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Why not wait until we see the conclusion of the matter before forming full-throated opinions?
No reason at present to assume it won't add to her character development. Every time you type or quote someone saying the word, "assume" you need to understand it just makes people more annoyed. Let it play out and offer your critique after the final stanza has played out. Otherwise, you just look like someone who has paused a movie a room full of people are watching in the middle to go on a long diatribe about something that may not even be an issue by the end.
And you've seen neither the conclusion of this season nor their plan for her in future seasons. So why are you speaking about this episode as if this is a series finale post mortem?
It's incredibly boring to watch you just sort of imagine the ending them lecture based on what you see in your head.
She willingly put herself into a situation where she would be raped by this awful human being. You can ask yourself what it says about her character that she would be willing to do that, knowingly having a choice to even go back to Winterfell. You could ask how these self-destructive acts could shape her character down the line, not too different to how Cersei may have been hardened by her years with Robert Baratheon. One of the show's major themes is the fluidity of power and subjugation. Her forcing herself into this game is going to have an affect on her as a character, we just need to see how it's going to play out.
Can Crusher
Banned
Unless people are mad that it was boring and predictable, there's no reason to be mad. The show has set the rules already, this rape scene is a blip at best compared to what has happened before in the show.
I think he means the last four of the season, not the previous four that just aired?
In real life too
Yeah, I'm all caught up.
It's not really what I said, so no.
I used the term "properly" in quotation marks because of what I assumed was meant by this.
How do you determine what future actions are at least partly due to this? How explicit do these hints have to be?
Bolton is from a northern family who betrayed and murdered the Starks and who is currently going around flaying people. The Northerners would most likely support Stannis anyway even if Sansa was in the Vale.
This is a very weak reason to put up with marrying and being raped by a psychopath.
Scenario 1: Stay at vale. Stannis wins. Boltons die. Sansa is never in any danger.
Scenario 2: Stay at vale. Bolton wins. Then propose marriage and do this current stupid suicide assassination mission.
Scenario 3: Marry Bolton without waiting for Stannis because she wants to be raped. Or rather, the writers do. Because it makes no sense for her to decide to put herself there when Stannis is already on his way to kill the Boltons.
Stannis would give her control anyway for the same reason he tried to give control to Jon.
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