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[royalan]

??? and?? The murder Eddard Stark developed Arya. What's the issue with the rape of Sana developing Theon?

The execution of Ed Stark was a shocking but fitting end to his character arc and set the tone for the entire series. It established The Game as we know it. That death had an effect on EVERYONE'S character development, and made narrative sense. It is literally the polar opposite of Sansa's rape.

Also, it ended Ed's character on the show, so it's not like he went on to continue being tortured day in/day out like Sansa.

Is any particular violent scene needed? I could list out a dozen things the show has dealt with and come up with a possible alternative. I don't think that's a good argument against it. Also, having characters act because someone else is done wrong is not 'problematic'. Why do you think it is? Virtually every time it's used you're supposed to be incensed that it happened...it is in no way legitimizing or encouraging or making light of the rape. Do you feel that same way about having a character murdered in order to change a different character? If not, then why?

It's problematic when it becomes an incredibly overused way to increase the stakes for female characters and/or "make them stronger."

Again, a lot of people who have a problem with that scene aren't upset merely the rape, but what it means for Sansa's development, and what it says about the writers, that THIS is what they keep coming back to.

 

[Ferrio]

??? and?? The murder of Eddard Stark developed Arya. What's the issue with the rape of Sana developing Theon?

Not to mention Theon is a victim of rape and torture from the exact same man. But fuck him I guess.

 

[Beelzebufo]

The execution of Ed Stark was a shocking but fitting end to his character arc and set the tone for the entire series. It established The Game as we know it. That death had an effect on EVERYONE'S character development, and made narrative sense. It is literally the polar opposite of Sansa's rape.

Also, it ended Ed's character on the show, so it's not like he went on to continue being tortured day in/day out like Sansa.

Wait, how does Ramsay consummating his marriage not make narrative sense?

 

[hendersonhank]

A marriage requires a consummation, but it doesn't need to be immediate as seen with Tyrion.

And as a result, she and Tyrion were never married.

That's my point if you are making the argument that she knows it has to happen? Then you play it as a ultimate test of will, she goes into something she hates, something that is awful but she does it, not by screaming or crying. Again if this had to happen for her plan play it as part of her plan, instead of screaming and crying.

This isn't a superhero comic where just because someone has the willpower to endure something terrible, they suddenly have superhuman powers of composure and pain resistance to go along with it.

 

[Zornack]

The execution of Ed Stark was a shocking but fitting end to his character arc and set the tone for the entire series. It established The Game as we know it. That death had an effect on EVERYONE'S character development, and made narrative sense. It is literally the polar opposite of Sansa's rape.

Also, it ended Ed's character on the show, so it's not like he went on to continue being tortured day in/day out like Sansa.

How is Sansa being raped not fitting? Are we watching the same show?

 

[Lothar]

Nah, Littlefinger ain't lying to her. The only thing he ever wanted was Cat, which is why he saved her daughter (/clone) and is now going to go fuck up the people responsible for her death (the Boltons, I'm sure he'd go for the Freys eventually). He now has a good cover for why his army is marching to Winterfell, and he knows nobody else is gonna do shit because nobody cares about what goes on up north.

He wanted two things: Cat, and then to climb the ladder. Sansa is just another pawn to him. He used her to make an alliance with the Boltons and then get Cersei angry at the Boltons. He doesn't care what happens to Sansa. If he did, he wouldn't have left her there. He would have tried to stop Joffrey from beating her. He might get the Freys and the Boltons but that has nothing to do with whether Sansa lives or dies.

"From the vale" she's not in that super awesome win/win position we talked about, she'd just have to hope for a Stannis win. Obviously she's in a better position to get her revenge as lady of Winterfell, especially if she charms Ramsay which she certainly seems to be doing because he's being as nice as he can to anybody to her.

Nice? You mean you believed his facade?

Here's Iwan Rheon on Ramsay

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-iwan-rheon-on-ramsay-sansa-wedding-night.html

Q: What happened to Ramsay's promise to Littlefinger, "I'll never hurt her"?
Iwan Rheon: He did, yeah! You shouldn't really listen to Ramsay, especially when he's trying to dupe someone. I think that's one of the most interesting things about him, the way he's so good at manipulation, and he's a fantastic actor. He's better than me.

And why can she not make the same marriage proposal from the Vale after Ramsay wins?

And I'm assuming there's more to that scene in the preview that's not included in that gif? Because he's kissing her lol. He's a creepy fucker, but he's kissing her, not knocking her teeth out.

Do you think he's oblivious to her facial expressions and what she feels? That's not really what his character is about.

I don't think you're giving Sansa enough credit here. She can do this. (Well I have a sneaking suspicion Brienne's gonna do something stupid and everything will go to hell, but nobody planned for that).

Do what?

 

[mantidor]

??? and?? The murder of Eddard Stark developed Arya. What's the issue with the rape of Sana developing Theon?

A LOT of things developed Arya, lets not be obtuse now.

I do agree with the sentiment that since we don't really know how it will develop we should reserve judgement, but I also think is safe to assume the writers ended purposefully the episode with such controversial scene to keep people talking, it is shock value and it is exploitative no matter how it's resolved in the future at the end, and it deserves all the shit is getting.

 

[royalan]

How is Sans being raped not fitting? Are we watching the same show?

Yes.

Again, not the rape, the scene itself and how it played out is the problem.

 

[Scrooged]

It's problematic when it becomes an incredibly overused way to increase the stakes for female characters and/or "make them stronger."

Again, a lot of people who have a problem with that scene aren't upset merely the rape, but what it means for Sansa's development, and what it says about the writers, that THIS is what they keep coming back to.

How does overusing it (which I don't think it is generally) make it problematic? You'll need to give some details here, because there are literally hundreds of tropes that writers use in stories. Every single show or movie has many of the same tropes. The one I mentioned about having a character die to give motivation to other characters is one of them. Why isn't that a problematic trope?

 

[GameGuru59]

The execution of Ed Stark was a shocking but fitting end to his character arc and set the tone for the entire series. It established The Game as we know it. That death had an effect on EVERYONE'S character development, and made narrative sense. It is literally the polar opposite of Sansa's rape.

Also, it ended Ed's character on the show, so it's not like he went on to continue being tortured day in/day out like Sansa.



It's problematic when it becomes an incredibly overused way to increase the stakes for female characters and/or "make them stronger."

Again, a lot of people who have a problem with that scene aren't upset merely the rape, but what it means for Sansa's development, and what it says about the writers, that THIS is what they keep coming back to.

There have been about 3 rapes in GOT (4 if you count the rape and murder of what's his name's sister). While there have been a huge amount of deaths. How are they continually coming back to it? They're not coming back to it any more than death at all. Let alone torture, which is shown in much greater detail throughout the series.

 

[fallen_dawn]

Again, a lot of people who have a problem with that scene aren't upset merely the rape, but what it means for Sansa's development, and what it says about the writers, that THIS is what they keep coming back to.

The reason why I dislike this argument is that we don't know where Sansa's development is going from here. I'm reserving judgement on whether this was harmful to her development until we see how the rest of the season plays out. As soon as Sansa was committed to marrying Ramsay, there was practically no other way the scene could have played out.

I'm hoping that in the next eps we can see how Sansa deals with her situation. In the past she hasn't really been able to do much about where she is. If she takes control of her character, rather than passively sitting back, it will show that the character has developed. I feel like it is silly to say that a whole lot of character development has being thrown out simply because she was raped. It doesn't make her any less of a character.

 

[royalan]

How does overusing it (which I don't think it is genrally) make it problematic? You'll need to give some details here, because there are literally hundreds of tropes that writers use in stories. Every single show or movie has many of the same tropes. The one I mentioned about having a character die to give motivation to other characters is one of them. Why isn't that a problematic trope?

And usually when shows lean too heavily on tropes, especially overused tropes that rely on racial assumptions or women being treated as sex objects to help adjacent male characters learn lessons, those shows get criticized for lazy, unimaginative writing.

Let's not pretend this only happens with rape scenes. Tell a boring, meandering, repetitive story where your characters go through the same experiences over and over again, and eventually your story gets criticized, regardless of how "shocking" you try to make it.

There have been about 3 rapes in GOT (4 if you count the rape and murder of what's his name's sister). While there have been a huge amount of deaths. How are they continually coming back to it? They're not coming back to it any more than death at all. Let alone torture, which is shown in much greater detail throughout the series.

Last I checked, Game of Thrones is a show about war.

 

[Maxim726X]

Yes.

Again, not the rape, the scene itself and how it played out is the problem.

So... If it was merely implied you'd be okay with it?

 

[Beelzebufo]

He wanted two things: Cat, and then to climb the ladder. Sansa is just another pawn to him. He used her to make an alliance with the Boltons and then get Cersei angry at the Boltons. He doesn't care what happens to Sansa. If he did, he wouldn't have left her there. He would have tried to stop Joffrey from beating her. He might get the Freys and the Boltons but that has nothing to do with whether Sansa lives or dies.



Nice? You mean you believed his facade?

Here's Iwan Rheon on Ramsay

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-iwan-rheon-on-ramsay-sansa-wedding-night.html

Q: What happened to Ramsay's promise to Littlefinger, "I'll never hurt her"?
Iwan Rheon: He did, yeah! You shouldn't really listen to Ramsay, especially when he's trying to dupe someone. I think that's one of the most interesting things about him, the way he's so good at manipulation, and he's a fantastic actor. He's better than me.

And why can she not make the same marriage proposal from the Vale after Ramsay wins?



Do you think he's oblivious to her facial expressions and she feels? That's not really what his character is about.



Do what?

He obviously cares about Sansa. He left her because if he didn't, he'd be getting her and himself in trouble with the iron throne. He didn't stop Joffrey from beating her because jthen he would have died. Instead he bided his time and killed Joffrey later! I don't think you understand most of what happens in this show.

Ramsay still hasn't been violent to Sansa, at least not comparable to how he treats everyone else. Obviously Sansa isn't crazy about him, but this dudes an angel compared to how book Ramsay treats his wife. And he never kissed Reek, he flayed him. Like the dudes a total price don't get me wrong, but he's treating Sansa really nicely.

The marriage wouldn't work from the vale because then there would be no marriage lol. And I think Brienne will try to (and might succeed in) killing Stannis. Just a guess though. Brienne's whole arc for a little while now has been "I'm slowly becoming friends with Pod while making everyone worse because of my own idiocy".

Yes.

Again, not the rape, the scene itself and how it played out is the problem.

Youre refusing to share with us how you think it should have played out instead.

 

[Verger]

I can't believe people are rioting over this. I wasn't even sure Sansa was being de facto raped since they were just married and she didn't visibly resist being taken. I figured she was just... unhappy about the current circumstances. The scene was just so tame - there's so little to become actually desensitized to. I guess Theon's reactions are supposed to be the giveaway?

In any case, I'm getting sick of this outrage culture targeting arts for a platform. Rape happens. Should we stop depicting it or excising it from expression all together, no matter how tastefully depicted, on behalf of feminists?

Same thing. I was expecting (not that I wanted it to be) some kind of Brutal rape scene with her being beaten, tied up or otherwise physically forced harshly. What I saw was her being lied down and the rest is off screen. To me it looked like she willingly allowed it even though she probably hated the idea (and don't twist this to say I think it is not rape). But that sounds like something that most women have to do to survive in this harsh world, especially when they get married to scum.

 

[Zornack]

Last I checked, Game of Thrones is a show about war.

Rape is a massive part of war.

And GoT isn't a show about war, it's a show about political power struggle and fantasy. And it's brutal. And in that world rape fits thematically as a common occurrence.

 

[Cybit]

I could see that.

It's just an..interesting? subtext I feel is going through? Feel like it is being danced around because that discussion will lead to a very angry and emotional conversation.

I guess something about how people are more disgusted by Ramsay having sex with his wife than him flaying Theon or any of the other bad things that happen in this show.

More or less. I'll be less nice than you and say "Ramsay raping Sansa" versus "stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach" or "slitting the throat of a baby"

 

[excelsiorlef]

??? and?? The murder of Eddard Stark developed Arya. What's the issue with the rape of Sana developing Theon?

Because rape of a woman as means to develop or inspire a male character is an old hat

 

[Scrooged]

And usually when shows lean to heavily on tropes, especially overused tropes that rely on racial assumptions of women being treated as sex objects to help adjacent male characters learn lessons, shows get criticized for lazy, unimaginative writing.

Let's not pretend this only happens with rape scenes. Telling a boring, meandering, repetitive story where your characters go through the same experiences over and over again, and eventually your story gets criticized, regardless of how "shocking" you try to make it.

Again, you're assuming it was only for Theon. Why do you think this? The scene focused on both characters.

Were you this upset or bothered by Theon's torture last season? He had his balls cut off....just for the amusement of another character. Yet now we're supposed to be outraged that he may become better because of what happened to Sansa?

 

[Maxim726X]

Because rape of a woman as means to develop or inspire a male character is an old hat

... Are we watching the same show?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Because rape of a woman as means to develop or inspire a male character is an old hat

But Reek's not a man, not truly.

I guess this an improvement over the books then? In the books Jayne pretty much exists for exactly what you describe, at least in the show Sansa is being strong in her own right.

 

[Ferrio]

Because rape of a woman as means to develop or inspire a male character is an old hat

How bout a male character that suffered rape and torture from that exact same person albeit magnitudes worse? This isn't exactly joe blow witnessing a rape and coming to the rescue.

 

[Speevy]

Sansa leaving King's Landing has nothing to do with her well being, and everything to do with a valuable political figure being underutilized.

Whether Sansa belongs to the Vale or Winterfell, the point is that she holds a family name that can be bartered for position.

Littlefinger used Olenna Tyrell's concern for her own granddaughter's well-being as an excuse to kill Joffrey, which freed Sansa up to be his meal ticket.

Remember that Littlefinger originally brokered the deal that brought the Tyrells from the corpse of Renly Baratheon to the gates of King's Landing to defeat Stannis Baratheon. Out of that he gained his current titles.

Now he's potentially rallying the Vale and the greatly weakened Lannisters against Roose Bolton, who already can't hold his own lands. The only ally he has is Walder Frey, and Walder Frey won't risk anything unless he knows Roose can win.

Littlefinger is essentially betting on everyone at Sansa's expense, and her victory is not in overcoming Ramsay, but in stopping his devious machinations before they cause another war.

 

[royalan]

Rape is a massive part of war.

And GoT isn't a show about war, it's a show about political power struggle and fantasy. And it's brutal. And in that world rape fits thematically as a common occurrence.

So, then where are all the violent male rape scenes then? Last I checked, that was also a harsh reality of war. (Not that male rape is something I actually want to see on the show).

Game of Thrones is a show about war, and as such death has been used as a plot tool in all sorts of ways, bringing all sorts of consequences and routes of salvation to the characters. Rape so far on the show has really only been used one way, so this isn't a good comparison at all.

 

[Ferrio]

So, then where are all the violent male rape scenes then? Last I checked, that was also a harsh reality of war. (Not that male rape is something I actually want to see on the show).

Theon.

Varys also talked about his. I know of another character in the book too.

 

[Beelzebufo]

So, then where are all the violent male rape scenes then? Last I checked, that was also a harsh reality of war. (Not that male rape is something I actually want to see on the show).

Game of Thrones is a show about war, and as such death has been used as a plot tool in all sorts of ways, bringing all sorts of consequences and routes of salvation to the characters. Rape so far on the show has really only been used one way, so this isn't a good comparison at all.

It was like the entirety of Season 3. Everyone got sick of that Theon stuff real fast.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

AV Club reviewer Myles McNutt said it better than I could:


-source

Not to completely stretch across the narrative field (and it's bad enough this scene wasn't in the book, annoying a LOT of the book readers), but when you look at Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo who is tragically raped then gets her revenge in the 'sweetest' fashion.

My memory is foggy, but has the show (or book) ever dealt with male rape?

Think it was implied that Theon was raped while being tortured? I don't exactly remember...

 

[royalan]

Think it was implied that Theon was raped while being tortured? I don't exactly remember...

He was nearly raped for trying to escape, but was then saved by Ramsey in disguise in one of his traps.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Sansa leaving King's Landing has nothing to do with her well being, and everything to do with a valuable political figure being underutilized.

Whether Sansa belongs to the Vale or Winterfell, the point is that she holds a family name that can be bartered for position.

Littlefinger used Olenna Tyrell's concern for her own granddaughter's well-being as an excuse to kill Joffrey, which freed Sansa up to be his meal ticket.

Remember that Littlefinger originally brokered the deal that brought the Tyrells from the corpse of Renly Baratheon to the gates of King's Landing to defeat Stannis Baratheon. Out of that he gained his current titles.

Now he's potentially rallying the Vale and the greatly weakened Lannisters against Roose Bolton, who already can't hold his own lands. The only ally he has is Walder Frey, and Walder Frey won't risk anything unless he knows Roose can win.

Littlefinger is essentially betting on everyone at Sansa's expense, and her victory is not in overcoming Ramsay, but in stopping his devious machinations before they cause another war.

While this is all true, I think it's unfair to discount Littlefinger's feelings for Cat. It's basically what motivated him to do everything he does. He honestly tries to protect Ned in court for Cat's sake, but Ned and Joff sort of ruin that. I don't think it's a coincidence that his first target is someone who's been repeatedly hurting the Stark family (including Cat), followed by the people who stabbed Robb in the chest, and likely next would be Walder Frey himself if I had to guess.

He wants to own the world too of course, but he only wants power in the first place because his lack of power and influence kept him from marrying Cat.

#PetyrHeartthrob

He was nearly raped for trying to escape, but was then saved by Ramsey in disguise in one of his traps.

... And then was raped and tortured for the rest of the season lol

 

[ultron87]

Again, you're assuming it was only for Theon. Why do you think this? The scene focused on both characters.

Were you this upset or bothered by Theon's torture last season? He had his balls cut off....just for the amusement of another character. Yet now we're supposed to be outraged that he may become better because of what happened to Sansa?

People quickly got sick of the "let's torture Theon for 5 episodes in a row" crap too. (Here's myself on the subject.) Once those scenes stopped showing the audience anything new about the characters involved and was just torture for torture's sake it got pointless and tiring. Based on how they've handled rape in the past I expect things are going to go the same way here.

 

[excelsiorlef]

AV Club reviewer Myles McNutt said it better than I could:


-source

Not to completely stretch across the narrative field (and it's bad enough this scene wasn't in the book, annoying a LOT of the book readers), but when you look at Lisbeth Salander from The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo who is tragically raped then gets her revenge in the 'sweetest' fashion.

My memory is foggy, but has the show (or book) ever dealt with male rape?

The quote about how 3 of the female main characters have been raped in this show is fucked. Especially since what? 2 of them aren't in the books?

 

[Naughty_Doge]

I find it very amusing how attached people become to a fictional universe. The desire to escape real life is hilarious sometimes.

Hmmm...

 

[Maxim726X]

People quickly got sick of the "let's torture Theon for 5 episodes in a row" crap too. Once those scenes stopped showing the audience anything new about the characters involved and was just torture for torture's sake it got pointless and tiring. Based on how they've handled rape in the past I expect things are going to go the same way here.

This was a 5 second scene.

Theon's torture spanned across multiple episodes, and had a lot of air time.

 

[royalan]

People quickly got sick of the "let's torture Theon for 5 episodes in a row" crap too. Once those scenes stopped showing the audience anything new about the characters involved and was just torture for torture's sake it got pointless and tiring. Based on how they've handled rape in the past I expect things are going to go the same way here.

Thank you.

I went from thinking that the torture was deserved comeuppance for the horrible and traitorous things Theon had done up to that point, to thinking "WHY are we back to this!? This show has 58464635368493632 characters that are all DOING SOMETHING, and they never have any time to show any of it as it is! WHY is this The Theon Torture Porn Hour!?" every time his scenes came up.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Thank you.

I went from thinking that the torture was deserved comeuppance for the horrible and traitorous things Theon had done up to that point, to thinking "WHY are we back to this!? This show has 58464635368493632 characters that are all DOING SOMETHING, and they never have any time to show any of it as it is! WHY is this The Theon Torture Porn Hour!?" every time his scenes came up.

I think we can all agree with that

It just has nothing to do with what we're discussing really.

 

[ultron87]

This was a 5 second scene.

Theon's torture spanned across multiple episodes, and had a lot of air time.

And that five second scene, just like the back half of "let's torture Theon!" didn't show us anything new about anyone and is unlikely to dramatically alter any of the character's trajectories from paths they were already set on. Thus, it is bad story telling.

 

[GameGuru59]

People quickly got sick of the "let's torture Theon for 5 episodes in a row" crap too. Once those scenes stopped showing the audience anything new about the characters involved and was just torture for torture's sake it got pointless and tiring. Based on how they've handled rape in the past I expect things are going to go the same way here.

Yes that was tiring (though I would argue they were good at displaying how broken Theon was at the end of it all). But the rapes aren't 5 episodes in a row. They're spread pretty evenly throughout the series. I can sort of understand how one would be more sensitive to it if you're more sensitive to rape as a concept (as in it offends your sensibilities more for whatever reason), but to say they're overusing it as a useless story trope is a bit much. Every rape in the story, except maybe the one perpetrated by Jamie, leads to meaningful and contextual development of the victim character.

 

[Ferrio]

And that five second scene, just like the back half of "let's torture Theon!" didn't show us anything new about anyone and is unlikely to dramatically alter any of the character's trajectories from paths they were already set on. Thus, it is bad story telling.

Theon scenes showed us exactly why he isn't theon anymore. That wasn't just torture, that was total destruction of a man's psyche and character. Such a dramatic transformation needs explaining.

 

[Maxim726X]

And that five second scene, just like the back half of "let's torture Theon!" didn't show us anything new about anyone and is unlikely to dramatically alter any of the character's trajectories from paths they were already set on. Thus, it is bad story telling.

It did show us something new... Now Sansa has all the reason in the world to drive a knife into his chest, or to aid someone else who wishes to.

It also gives Theon and Sansa a potential partnership later this season to achieve that very goal

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

He was nearly raped for trying to escape, but was then saved by Ramsey in disguise in one of his traps.

Books or show? Thought it was implied rape in the books during the torture? Nothing concrete, just implied. Maybe I should go for a re-read... Haven't watched the show past S2 either...

 

[Beelzebufo]

And that five second scene, just like the back half of "let's torture Theon!" didn't show us anything new about anyone and is unlikely to dramatically alter any of the character's trajectories from paths they were already set on. Thus, it is bad story telling.

I wouldn't say that. It showed us that Sansa is truly committed to her goal with the Boltons, if nothing else. In the past few episodes we've had her accepting the plan, seeing the horrors of Winterfell under the Boltons, and then she conquered her fears (the bath scene) and now this happens. It's a good end to the little arc she's had, now we just need to wait for Stannis to show up (or Littlefinger? Travel is weird in this show).

Like so it's:
Intro > Horros > Conquering those Horrors

In three episodes, instead of:
Captured/Torture > Torture > Torture > Torture > Torture/Reek

 

[Ferrio]

Books or show? Thought it was implied rape in the books during the torture? Nothing concrete, just implied. Maybe I should go for a re-read... Haven't watched the show past S2 either...

He was raped in the show, period. He may not of been penetrated, but that was rape.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

He was raped in the show, period. He may not of been penetrated, but that was rape.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure he was castrated right? Honestly I think the writers are kinda lazy in this stuff. Just shock shlock.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

The Dorne scene should be the focus of any outrage from last episode.

 

[The Silver]

The Dorne scene should be the focus of any outrage from last episode.

for me it's Tommen being a punk bitch, makes me miss the Joff

 

[Ferrio]

The Dorne scene should be the focus of any outrage from last episode.

I seriously thought there was going to be outrage because the female warriors were laughably bad. Embarrassingly so.

 

[Lothar]

He obviously cares about Sansa. He left her because if he didn't, he'd be getting her and himself in trouble with the iron throne. He didn't stop Joffrey from beating her because jthen he would have died. Instead he bided his time and killed Joffrey later! I don't think you understand most of what happens in this show.

I made a mistake by saying "If he cared, he wouldn't have left her." What I should have said was "If he cared, he wouldn't have put her there at all." He obviously doesn't care about Sansa because he's putting her in danger. It's hard to know what Littlefinger's true feelings are because he's always lying, but I think most would agree with me and say he doesn't care.

Ramsay still hasn't been violent to Sansa, at least not comparable to how he treats everyone else. Obviously Sansa isn't crazy about him, but this dudes an angel compared to how book Ramsay treats his wife. And he never kissed Reek, he flayed him. Like the dudes a total price don't get me wrong, but he's treating Sansa really nicely.

He can't flay Sansa. The north wouldn't like it and wouldn't accept him. We've seen a few minutes of Ramsay after he dropped the facade once he was married. Those few minutes led to these 24 pages and a RW type reaction. Calling BS on treating her nicely.

The marriage wouldn't work from the vale because then there would be no marriage lol.

She would leave the Vale if he accepted. It would make more sense to see if he won before proposing and putting herself in danger. (Still wouldn't make much sense. Still would be stupid as fuck.) Stannis might do her work for her.

And I think Brienne will try to (and might succeed in) killing Stannis. Just a guess though. Brienne's whole arc for a little while now has been "I'm slowly becoming friends with Pod while making everyone worse because of my own idiocy".

My "Do what?" was about Sansa. You said Sansa can do it. Do what? Wait? Have sex?

 

[a Master Ninja]

Do we really consider that Cersei and Jaime scene rape? They banged in a tower while visiting Winterfell with the King. Later, Cersei forced herself on Jaime, he initially resists, and they banged on that table right after talking to their dad. Later still Jaime forced himself on Cersei, she initially resists, and they banged at their sons funeral. In the context of their previously depicted sexual encounters, they are sexual thrill seekers and they get off on having risky, incestuous sex at wildly inappropriate times.

 

[Scrooged]

People quickly got sick of the "let's torture Theon for 5 episodes in a row" crap too. (Here's myself on the subject.) Once those scenes stopped showing the audience anything new about the characters involved and was just torture for torture's sake it got pointless and tiring. Based on how they've handled rape in the past I expect things are going to go the same way here.

Yeah, I'm sure people complained, but the reaction now is on a whole different level. And really, Theon has been through more shit than anyone else on the show.

 

[Speevy]

Alfie Allen is the best actor on the show. I'd watch him in any scene.