More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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The Silver
Member
GoT isn't and has never been the type of show to shy away from showing brutal heartwrenching scenes.
They didn't shy away from showing Dany getting raped, a pregnant women getting stabbed in the stomach, a man torturted until he's unrecognizable,etc. It's ridiculous to think the show would suddenly change at this point and not show such a monumental character moment for the participants.
nelsonroyale
Member
That is a pretty fascinating reaction actually...it might say something
Dude Abides
Banned
I doubt it's going to be very important to her character development. Probably was just inserted to make the revenge fantasy more satisfying when Ramsay inevitably gets his.
nelsonroyale
Member
Sounds like it is more getting into the mind of the writers and going out of her way to justify their direction...In no way did any of that refute how poorly scripted the whole scenario is...This issue isn't whether Ramsay would have raped her if she was under his power...it is the idea that their idea of developing her character as a 'player of the game' is to marry her worst enemy and wait to be 'rescued' by Stannis...Its shit.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You have no idea that that is what will actually happen, though. For all we know, Sansa could poison Ramsay and raise Winterfell against Roose under the banner the North Remembers. This sounds like naysaying based on what you think will happen rather than what actually has happened so far.
You assume that that is what is going to happen just to fit whatever preconceived notion you have. The previews suggest different, either way you're not going to know that at this moment.
GameGuru59
Banned
Yeah, that.Article said:
Beat me to the punch. There's a counter to that exact point in the article...but that would mean that it would have had to been read.
Le_Samourai
Banned
Good post.
that we are heartless rape approving brutes?
Night Angel
Member
I haven't actually seen this season so I don't really feel qualified to comment on it, but that article oscillates between absolute and relative morality so often I had trouble finding a consistent point in it. Is the author arguing that the scene is trying to deconstruct the morality of its setting or that it is trying to give it to the audience as-is? I can't tell.
Night Angel
Member
Whynotboth.jpg
Well then the issue shouldn't be the rape, but the wedding but we're not arguing about that.
It is though. That is the story the showrunners chose to have (in lieu of directly adapting the books...which would have her aimlessly wandering around for a season). If you want to say the decision to marry the two is bad; that's a completely different argument altogether. But that's not the part people are generally complaining about.
The thread titleand most of the outrage is not against the deviating storyline. A huge part of the outraged people doesn't even know about the book storyline, I suppose
The article takes down some bad arguments, doesn't with others. Whatever. In addition to the Theon thing, I disagree with her about ignoring precedent. Of course precedent matters. This is serialized entertainment; this rape occurred within a larger story with previous rapes of main characters. If she thinks that the previous botching of rape shouldn't be taken into consideration when discussing this show's sexual politics, that's ridiculous.
nelsonroyale
Member
I don't presume that is going to happen...that is the scenario that LF basically set out for her.
Also, on Sansa's strength...there are different types of strength. The strength to endure...sure, that is one type of strength. There are other types of strenth though. The strength to excercise influence and agency...to shape the world around you and to influence others. To be active, to be a player...she has shown very little of that, and she has been thrown in with the sharks...It is not the type of plan a clever man would have come up with unless LF indeed just sees her as another part of the game he has no particular care for.
She also writes from the premise that the series constantly subverts expectations...I don't agree with that for me personally. Impact factor is always going to diminish. Martin goes the other way rather than not, so that in itself has become something of a predictability. I disagree that he shows the world as is...he has a penchant to focus on the sordid and degraded. For instance, how many happily married couples does he focus on having sex? And those that he has, usually end up in a grizzly...That is the way that he roles. I am fine with that, but it hardly reflects the world as is. It is a subset and selective nonetheless. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it is still a partial view and his perogative.
Because they seem to be mutually exclusive. The former would imply authorial agency where the latter suggests the authors are washing their hands of it all as though the result were inevitable.
Suppose I'll just have to get around to watching it and come to my own conclusion.
The series does start out with a knight in shining armor throwing a kid out a window, and the main hero being killed in the first season. If you have not read the books, let me assure you that the subversion of expectations continues. All the way through.
It really isnt.
But when the series creates the expectation—like you say, right from the get go—that this is dark and edgy, is the dark and edgy stuff really subversive? I think it's pretty obvious and if you're still being shocked by things that happen in the series post-Ned dying, I don't really know what to say.
Game of Thrones is decent trashy exploitation fiction; it's not more than that and it's never wanted to be more than that. I don't know why she puts it in a separate "genre" from the Flash; they're both pop fantasies. Empty calories.
Game of Thrones is decent trashy exploitation fiction; it's not more than that and it's never wanted to be more than that. I don't know why she puts it in a separate "genre" from the Flash; they're both pop fantasies. Empty calories.
It isn't a different argument. If the storyline they chose for Sansa inevitably requires this rape to take place they are responsible for that result. They weren't just like "Lets put Sansa at Winterfell!" *three weeks later* "Well this story is naturally progressing to a rape. Thanks dynamically evolving story we have no control over!" *hand dusting off motion*
Shamrock7r
Member
Are you seriously under the assumption that the mainstream outrage over the episode is based on concerns about the story progression?
You're right. The writers were scheming on the best way to get Sansa raped because well they're sick fucks? The situation sucks, no one likes what happened to her but modifying the storyline cause you don't like the result is childish.
Well, this is where the show's troubled history with depicting sexual violence comes into play, isn't it? It's ironic that you say modifying the storyline because you don't like the result is childish when the creators of the show literally modified three storylines to add rape. What would you call that?
It is. Deadspin, Vanity Fair, Grantland, AV Club, all the major recaps shit on those decisions. And these are recaps by people who follow the show regularly, who are fans of the show. Like, this isn't some crazy conspiracy of internet SJW's who want to take away GOT's oh-so-precious rape.
They didn't modify the story to add rape. Rape was in the story, they condensed storylines and characters which is something they've done since the beginning of the show. Now if that's your issue, fine..stop watching the show... it's not going to follow the books. Even if we went with the books, someone got raped even worse from what I hear... is that any better?
I'm not under any assumptions about anyone else. This is one of the problems I have with it. I also have concerns that they're just going to follow up on it as badly as they did the other rape storylines, but we'll see how that plays out.
I for sure didn't say that.
They weren't scheming for anything. But they purposefully made many decisions that led to this so you can't wash the writer's hands of it by saying "that's what the characters would've done!"
They didn't modify Dany's storyline (in fact, they made it much, much less worse than the books); they interpreted a rough consensual encounter from Jaime's POV to be a little less consensual from a neutral POV, and they stuck to the story from the books (and changed characters) in the third one; mind you, toning it down significantly from the depravity of the books.
Mind you, they've been combining main characters with side characters since Season 1, and Sansa's story is them wandering around the world doing nothing in the books.
Seriously people; if you have not read the books, stop commenting on what was "added" and what wasn't. The TV series treats women arguably much better than the books do. (Especially Dany in the first book and Ramsay's wife in the later books)
None of those recaps complain one iota about changing Sansa's story at the end of S4 and in any of their recaps through S5. In fact, from Grantland's recap itself.
Most places were actually happy with the change to Sansa's story and the usurping of Jeyne Pool's character into Sansa at the end of S4 / beginning of S5. Because the arc in the books accomplishes very little than to possibly set up something big in TWoW...which isn't out yet.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
This is the central question. If they thought that this direction for the story which brought a ton of characters to Winterfell was the best way to write the story, then should they scuttle that just because something bad happens to a character that the audience likes? That is a big question for writers of all kinds---do you avoid taking the characters in a direction that you find interesting, good, or true to them just because you want to avoid dealing with content that might be upsetting or controversial?
Of course the writers are responsible for what happened. But I think it's likely that the scene happened less because "we need a rape scene" and more because once the decision was made to condense these characters into one place that this was a likely outcome given the characters involved.
What were you more upset and horrified by? The baby killing montage in Season 2 episode 1 or the Red Wedding?
This is my memory of the scene as well. I've only ever compared scene by scene with the book and show and there is a big difference with how Dany's wedding night went.
That is part of my issue here. I realize rape can be a plot mechanic but it just does nothing for Sansa's development to me. She's been a victim for years, and I had hoped she was finally being allowed to move away from this. I apparently was wrong. To me it seems to move her backwards from a storytelling perspective. Of course, who knows what will happen next week? Maybe this was just what she needed to make her strong. /s
Dany's consummation was explicitly consenual in the books. The fact that she was underage presents problems—but different problems. Jaime/Cersei was consensual in the books. Sansa isn't raped in the books.
"The books have rape, here, let's just throw in a rape in a different scene w/ different character because... why not?"—that shows a real understanding of sexual violence and dedication to depicting it properly. I'm not here to defend GRRM as some kind of paragon of feminism and nuanced sexual politics. I am here to say that you can't hide behind "well, this is fantasy! this is fiction! this is GRRM's world, not ours!" as an excuse for doing whatever you want and telling shitty stories.
"The books have rape, here, let's just throw in a rape in a different scene w/ different character because... why not?"—that shows a real understanding of sexual violence and dedication to depicting it properly. I'm not here to defend GRRM as some kind of paragon of feminism and nuanced sexual politics. I am here to say that you can't hide behind "well, this is fantasy! this is fiction! this is GRRM's world, not ours!" as an excuse for doing whatever you want and telling shitty stories.
This is once again assuming that Ramsey marrying and raping someone (Sansa or otherwise) is a central component of the plot.
Putting Sansa at Winterfell is a colossal change. They clearly aren't bound by what happens in the books anymore.
But why do these sorts of things have to have... Meaning? Why can't the brutal meaninglessness of it have merit? I think the fact that it upset so many people with the argument that basically boils down to, "it doesn't empower Sansa" highlights why it's such a "meaningful" scene.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I get why people say this but storytelling doesn't have to be (and probably shouldn't be) linear.
Just because she's becoming stronger doesn't mean that it follows that she is no longer going to be victimized. A constant upward trajectory with no bumps along the way was never going to happen in this show.
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