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[Anarion07]

This is once again assuming that Ramsey marrying and raping someone (Sansa or otherwise) is a central component of the plot.

Putting Sansa at Winterfell is a colossal change. They clearly aren't bound by what happens in the books anymore.

Of course it is part of the plot?
The marriage is.
Thus is the wedding night.
Knowing Ramsay, it would be ludicrous to think it would be all flowers and butterflies.
Just read the article. All of it.

 

[ultron87]

Of course it is part of the plot?
The marriage is.
Thus is the wedding night.
Knowing Ramsay, it would be ludicrous to think it would be all flowers and butterflies.
Just read the article. All of it.

I've read the article. Clearly you haven't read the thread of this conversation.

 

[Cybit]

Dany's consummation was explicitly consenual in the books. The fact that she was underage presents problems—but different problems. Jaime/Cersei was consensual in the books. Sansa isn't raped in the books.

"The books have rape, here, let's just throw in a rape in a different scene w/ different character because... why not?"—that shows a real understanding of sexual violence and dedication to depicting it properly. I'm not here to defend GRRM as some kind of paragon of feminism and nuanced sexual politics. I am here to say that you can't hide behind "well, this is fantasy! this is fiction! this is GRRM's world, not ours!" as an excuse for doing whatever you want and telling shitty stories.

...except do you forget the part where after the consummation, Khal rapes her so much that she wants to commit suicide, but instead Dany falls in love with her rapist whose behavior never changes? Yes. Let's stick with that version and see how it goes over. In the TV show they empower her to take charge of the relationship the rest of the way. Kinda think that one works out better for all parties intended.

Even as GRRM put it; Jaime/Cersei is "consensual" in the books because the chapter is written from Jaime's POV. GRRM has said there was definitely room to interpret, even in the books, that might not have been as clear cut and dry if it weren't from Jaime's POV.

Ramsay's wife is raped. You are being pedantic. They changed characters. They did not "add" it. Also, if Sansa gets married in any of the books; there's a very high chance she will be raped (since...marriage consummation is portrayed as rape in both the books and the show for the most part, as a basic subversion of the typical "prince & princess" trope).

Also; they've said that parts of book 6 are in this season. Maybe Sansa will get married in TWoW and this is what happens to her in the book. Then what's the argument?

 

[Kinitari]

I've read the article. Clearly you haven't read the thread of this conversation.

So you feel because they've diverged so much, they don't -have- to include the rape scene? Would you say that, unless they had to, it would be better to not include any rape scenes?

Edit: for reference, when I say "have to" I mean by being bound to the books plot.

 

[Opto]

We should show a female character getting raped every episode. Next week should have Brienne raped. It makes sense, this is a bad world the characters are living in. After that, Cersei again. Dany's in a pretty dangerous place, rape is bound to happen to her. How's that for showing how bad this world is, even the most powerful woman can't stop rape. Of course, it will all be their faults because they put themselves in that situation.

 

[Freshmaker]

Spoiler

jayne pool

didn't go through the same character development that Sansa has. After this scene, it becomes very difficult to notice that sansa is doing this as a choice in order to manipulate events later on, only because the show focused on Theon's reaction.

Using rape as a tool against a character like Sansa was backwards, unnecessary and her reaction was contrary to everything that she went through and her untimely maturity. She should have at least maintained composure during the scene... It's not like Sansa hasn't been in a situation where she was sexually assaulted before. All of a sudden she acts weak and fragile?

She took that time she was dragged off by commoners stoically?

 

[soleil]

Dany's consummation was explicitly consenual in the books. The fact that she was underage presents problems—but different problems. Jaime/Cersei was consensual in the books. Sansa isn't raped in the books.

"The books have rape, here, let's just throw in a rape in a different scene w/ different character because... why not?"—that shows a real understanding of sexual violence and dedication to depicting it properly. I'm not here to defend GRRM as some kind of paragon of feminism and nuanced sexual politics. I am here to say that you can't hide behind "well, this is fantasy! this is fiction! this is GRRM's world, not ours!" as an excuse for doing whatever you want and telling shitty stories.

The impasse between you and a lot of posters like myself is that:

1. You believe the writers can't do whatever they want. I believe they can. Any work of art, be it painting or song or TV show, can do what it wants.

2. It is shitty writing. That's definitely a matter of opinion and your criteria for what makes it shitty seems to change with every post to work around other people's responses to previous posts of yours.

 

[jtb]

No shit, it's my opinion. Dangling the threat of rape in my face is boring, tired storytelling.

...except do you forget the part where after the consummation, Khal rapes her so much that she wants to commit suicide, but instead Dany falls in love with her rapist whose behavior never changes? Yes. Let's stick with that version and see how it goes over. In the TV show they empower her to take charge of the relationship the rest of the way. Kinda think that one works out better for all parties intended.

Even as GRRM put it; Jaime/Cersei is "consensual" in the books because the chapter is written from Jaime's POV. GRRM has said there was definitely room to interpret, even in the books, that might not have been as clear cut and dry if it weren't from Jaime's POV.

Ramsay's wife is raped. You are being pedantic. They changed characters. They did not "add" it. Also, if Sansa gets married in any of the books; there's a very high chance she will be raped (since...marriage consummation is portrayed as rape in both the books and the show for the most part, as a basic subversion of the typical "prince & princess" trope).

Also; they've said that parts of book 6 are in this season. Maybe Sansa will get married in TWoW and this is what happens to her in the book. Then what's the argument?

I'm not being pedantic, you're just missing my point entirely. The fact that rape is treated as an interchangeable part shows the weight (or utter lack thereof) that you ascribe to the experience and act and the clumsiness of Weiss/Benioff's writing regarding the issue. I would just personally like my storytelling to care a little bit more about their characters and the decisions they make about them.

I guess as long as the victim falls in love with their rapist and there's a 1:1 ratio of Book to TV Show rapes at the end of the day, it's all good.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

This is once again assuming that Ramsey marrying and raping someone (Sansa or otherwise) is a central component of the plot.

Putting Sansa at Winterfell is a colossal change. They clearly aren't bound by what happens in the books anymore.

In the books it is. *Spoilers for stuff from books and show*

Spoiler

Sansa getting married to Ramsey is pretty much carbon copy from the book. To solidify the Boltons hold on the north. Granted how Sansa got to that point compared to Jeyne is different. So yes, it's central to the plot. The raping? Again, it's central to the plot. In the book, Ramsey makes Theon join in. We see it from Theons point of view in the book, and he's against it. In the show, he just watches. Either way, this is the straw that will break the camels back, Jeyne/Sansa will ask Theon for help(Maybe Sansa won't) in private later on, and Theon finds a way to get out. Atleast in the book, Theon gets out Jeyne with some help. It remains to be seen if it will be the same in the show.

So yes, there is a reason for the rape to exist in the story, for the story of these 2 characters atleast.

 

[meltingparappa]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me.

Not invalidating what you're saying, but that's a weirdly hipster stance to take on fictional sexual violence.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Not invalidating what you're saying, but that's a weirdly hipster stance to take on fictional sexual violence.

Ha, true. Right now Mad Men's on my mind, and the rape/misogynistic scenes in that were just handled with so much more respect for the topic and the characters involved. GOT is just coming off lazy and derivative here. I like dark shit like what happened to Sansa, but it just doesn't have any impact when it's been done so much already.

 

[Anarion07]

So yes, there is a reason for the rape to exist in the story, for the story of these 2 characters atleast.

Thank you.

 

[Kinitari]

Ha, true. Right now Mad Men's on my mind, and the rape/misogynistic scenes in that were just handled with so much more respect for the topic and the characters involved. GOT is just coming off lazy and derivative here. I like dark shit like what happened to Sansa, but it just doesn't have any impact when it's been done so much already.

Have there really been that many rapes in the series? I feel like for the setting, if anything, they've been sort of light on sexual abuse.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Is forced masochism the same as forced rape? The storyline has it that Sansa agreed to this match and sex is part of a wedding night. The on was the unwilling participant in that situation. And if nothing else it's to continue the development of a truly hateable character. What will be interesting is if Sansa continues to grow despite this

GOT is playing a lot with the boundaries if sexual morality this season and it is keeping the show on people's lips

 

[Shamrock7r]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

I don't think there is much of a discrepancy. The male leads get shit on just as much as the female leads in this show. The story progression of Brienne, Sansa, Arya, Cersei, and Daenerys are all fairly unique

 

[Opto]

Is forced masochism the same as forced rape? The storyline has it that Sansa agreed to this match and sex is part of a wedding night. The on was the unwilling participant in that situation. And if nothing else it's to continue the development of a truly hateable character. What will be interesting is if Sansa continues to grow despite this

GOT is playing a lot with the boundaries if sexual morality this season and it is keeping the show on people's lips

I agree, rape doesn't happen in a marriage. If she didn't want to be forced upon, she wouldn't have done this.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't think there is much of a discrepancy. The male leads get shit on just as much as the female leads in this show. The story progression of Brienne, Sansa, Arya, Cersei, and Daenerys are all fairly unique

It's not about getting shit on as much as it's about who that shitty treatment is impacting. I can see Sansa growing from this, but it's so irritating to know we're going to be watching "she rose above her rape" again.

 

[MutFox]

I still don't get why scenes like this can't be shown?

Where do people want to draw the censorship line?
Isn't it a good thing things like this are shown, shows how vile it is?
Even being off screen has caused this commotion.

 

[Dr Prob]

None of those recaps complain one iota about changing Sansa's story at the end of S4 and in any of their recaps through S5. In fact, from Grantland's recap itself.

All of that is to say I was generally OK with the change of Sansa going to Winterfell to marry Ramsay when it was revealed. The somewhat convoluted book version of the arc, in which the bride is a tertiary character (the daughter of a former Stark loyalist) who is forced to pretend to be Arya, is great but just too unwieldy for television. The show’s version also had the plus of providing more emotional stakes — obviously! — for the characters, the story, and the viewers. Theon now has a real opportunity for redemption. Or he could possibly sink to heretofore unplumbed depths of debased subservience and shame. Sansa moves to the center of the story rather than being shunted aside doing this and that in the Vale, where nothing much but politicking and the manipulation of grain prices is going on.

As I said upthread, I'm willing to wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement, but c'mon now. You can't refute his claim that the author of a piece had an issue with something by deleting the portion of said piece where the author went on to have an issue with something:

All of that is to say I was generally OK with the change of Sansa going to Winterfell to marry Ramsay when it was revealed. The somewhat convoluted book version of the arc, in which the bride is a tertiary character (the daughter of a former Stark loyalist) who is forced to pretend to be Arya, is great but just too unwieldy for television. The show’s version also had the plus of providing more emotional stakes — obviously! — for the characters, the story, and the viewers. Theon now has a real opportunity for redemption. Or he could possibly sink to heretofore unplumbed depths of debased subservience and shame. Sansa moves to the center of the story rather than being shunted aside doing this and that in the Vale, where nothing much but politicking and the manipulation of grain prices is going on. Any book reader — or even show watcher — understood the danger for Sansa and knew full well where her relationship with Ramsay logically would go. I expected what happened to be awful. What I didn’t expect was the seemingly slapdash and unthinking way that the show arrived at that place.

And he goes on from there (not going to quote the whole thing, it's here).

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I still don't get why scenes like this can't be shown?

Where do people want to draw the censorship line?
Isn't it a good thing things like this are shown, shows how vile it is?

It's not about censorship. It's just asking them to try harder. It's a common problem when men are writing for women.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

I agree that using rape lazily as a plot device is bad, but to what degree should they avoid showing sexualized violence in a world where sexualized violence (especially in marriage) is normalized?

I get that it upsets people (including myself) but should we scuttle uncomfortable topics to the background and pretend that it wouldn't happen?

This is a bigger topic, but as much as using rape as a lazy way of giving women revenge motives is awful, backgrounding it and pretending like it doesn't happen is pretty bad as well.

 

[MutFox]

It's not about censorship. It's just asking them to try harder. It's a common problem when men are writing for women.

What should have changed?

 

[Speevy]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

All the women who have been raped, kidnapped, or murdered, but not merely to make another character upset

-Dany - Raped because Khal Drogo is a barbarian brute, but no additional character was concerned over this.
-Catelyn Stark - Politically motivated, wife/mother of a traitor
-Sansa Stark - Politically motivated, daughter of a traitor
-Ros - Littlefinger gave her to Joffrey
-Shae - She betrayed Tyrion and tried to kill him.
-Septa Mordane - Killed because she probably fought those who were about to take Sansa and Arya.
-Tansy - Former lover for Ramsay, killed for sport.
-Doreah - Killed because she betrayed Dany
-Ygritte - Killed because she fought the Night's watch
-Lysa - Killed because she threatened Sansa Stark
-Talisa - Killed because she married Robb


As for the many raped characters, no one was upset when Cersei, Craster's wives,etc. were raped.

So I don't think that rings true at all.

I can't think of one example where a character kills a woman just to get back at another character. It's all politics.

 

[Ri'Orius]

We should show a female character getting raped every episode. Next week should have Brienne raped. It makes sense, this is a bad world the characters are living in. After that, Cersei again. Dany's in a pretty dangerous place, rape is bound to happen to her. How's that for showing how bad this world is, even the most powerful woman can't stop rape. Of course, it will all be their faults because they put themselves in that situation.

No, clearly nobody should ever get raped, hurt or otherwise denied agency. Cersei and Stannis should work out their differences over a cup of tea, the slave masters and the Boltons should see the error of their ways and devote their lives to feeding the poor, and the white walkers should descend from the north dressed in red suits to give presents to all the children.

 

[Opto]

No, clearly nobody should ever get raped, hurt or otherwise denied agency. Cersei and Stannis should work out their differences over a cup of tea, the slave masters and the Boltons should see the error of their ways and devote their lives to feeding the poor, and the white walkers should descend from the north dressed in red suits to give presents to all the children.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm talking about how I need this world to be shown how bad it is.

 

[Cybit]

No shit, it's my opinion. Dangling the threat of rape in my face is boring, tired storytelling.

I'm not being pedantic, you're just missing my point entirely. The fact that rape is treated as an interchangeable part shows the weight (or utter lack thereof) that you ascribe to the experience and act and the clumsiness of Weiss/Benioff's writing regarding the issue. I would just personally like my storytelling to care a little bit more about their characters and the decisions they make about them.

I guess as long as the victim falls in love with their rapist and there's a 1:1 ratio of Book to TV Show rapes at the end of the day, it's all good.

GRRM, when he was writing the books, has made that sort of a point, though. There's a NYTimes article that is linked multiple times in this thread, but the gist of it is that in typical medieval-fantasy type stories, how the women are treated is usually handled with baby gloves. Either everything works out fine for the women, or they never bother to show what would really (from GRRM's view) happen in that kind of situation. In modern media, any instance of rape is shown as a Giant Big Freaking Deal, that galvanizes the story and the heroine / hero / henchman to repent his ways / etc (see: Law & Order SVU, for instance). Or they're about to be raped, and hero comes in to save the day at the last second. The threat of sexual violence is used very often as a trope.

Martin's point/subversion of that is that in a "realistic" medieval-fantasy world, no one would give a flying two craps about rape; because women are property / treated terribly. The concept barely exists in Westeros, and probably only as a function of power hierarchy (if someone did it to someone higher on the noble chain of command). It would happen all the time, and twice on Sunday. Which is why the story treats it so nonchalantly; because the universe the show is in treats it nonchalantly (and the story is told purely through POV, so the story and the universe are inseparable in this case.) The idea that something so brutal and vile and soul-crushing as rape would happen...basically all the damn time is supposed to be one of the shocking and thought-provoking parts of the series. The idea that humanity is the biggest monster in a world full of legitimate monsters (Westeros).

I'll steal a quote from Marcotte's take - italics are the point she is responding to

There doesn’t have to be any rape in the series! This is fantasy fiction, not history, and you can just choose to never have any rape in it.

Mary Sue’s wretched freak-out over this epitomizes this argument, saying bluntly, “rape is not a necessary plot device.” Well, no. Nothing is a necessary plot device. In fact, you don’t have to tell stories at all. Or only tell stories about some things and not others.

And that’s fine, if that’s your taste. There are lots and lots of fantasy stories that don’t have rape. I recommend Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, which are both interesting and narratively complex and totally rape-free. Rape is not necessary to the stories they are telling, which are more traditional fantasy stories where the good guys always win, evil is always defeated, and the existing social systems are more or less just and correct.

That isn’t, however, the story that Game of Thrones is telling. Game of Thrones is telling a different story, one that explores the way that patriarchal systems that are often romanticized in fantasy would play out if they were more realistic. It’s one that is critical of the social systems in its world, holding them out as unjust and violent. And, like murder and war and poverty, rape is one of the consequences of that world.

I totally get not wanting to spend your time in a narrative that has a critical edge like that. A lot of the time, I am stressed out and just want to pour a glass of wine and watch The Flash, a show that has a black-and-white morality and takes an uncritical view of the social systems of its world. But I don’t want every show to be The Flash. There’s room for shows that ask harder questions.

Also, one thing she said that really stuck out to me with regard to this thread

We don’t need to see rape to know it’s terrible.

Technically, we don’t need stories that make us feel feelings at all to intellectually understand what feelings are. I don’t need happy stories to know, intellectually, that happiness is good. I don’t need tragic stories to know that sadness is bad. I don’t need stories of death to know that death sucks. I could go on forever.

Art isn’t about appealing to your intellectual knowledge of things. It’s about reaching you on a deeper, more emotional level. And the fact that a lot of people still expect things like the last minute daring rescue—or assume that being raped makes a character weak—shows that while they may intellectually know that rape is wrong, they haven’t really haven’t grappled with what rape is, what it does to people, and what is so wrong about it. Art, even art that makes you profoundly uncomfortable—hell, especially art that makes you profoundly uncomfortable—can drive those arguments home.

As I said upthread, I'm willing to wait and see how this plays out before passing judgement, but c'mon now. You can't refute his claim that the author of a piece had an issue with something by deleting the portion of said piece where the author went on to have an issue with something:

And he goes on from there (not going to quote the whole thing, it's here).

Yeah, he has a problem with the execution; but the point trying to be argued was that moving Sansa into the story arc itself was what people were upset about, not the rape. That's why I ended the quote where I did - to show that the anger wasn't about Sansa taking Jeyne's place in the story arc. Their anger is primarily based on the execution / other things. See below quotes:

Are you seriously under the assumption that the mainstream outrage over the episode is based on concerns about the story progression?

It is. Deadspin, Vanity Fair, Grantland, AV Club, all the major recaps shit on those decisions. And these are recaps by people who follow the show regularly, who are fans of the show. Like, this isn't some crazy conspiracy of internet SJW's who want to take away GOT's oh-so-precious rape."

 

[soleil]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

I don't think the fact that Theon got upset means that Sansa's rape was there JUST to get him upset. Seems like false dichotomy for people to say that if it shows a man being affected then the focus is not on the woman. The focus can be on the woman and everyone who cares about her, and in this case Theon is emerging as Sansa's most likely ally at Winterfell.

 

[Chuck Norris]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

Blatantly untrue

How do Danerys, Cersei, Margery, Melisandre, the Sand Snakes etc fit in with your description?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

A lot of this discussion is the usual expected (gross) stuff when a show just has too much rape in it. But I wish more people were just as bored of it as a plot device as me. It's wild how many different stories the dudes on this show get, including all sorts of different types of violence to further plot, but most of the leading women are just getting raped, kidnapped, or murdered to make another character upset.

More leading men have been murdered than women, by a long shot. More leading men kidnapped, too - I can't actually think of any leading women who've been kidnapped at all off the top of my head. I guess Arya a few seasons ago, but she escaped more or less under her own initiative so it wasn't to make another character upset. Sansa was held captive, I suppose.

I just don't think what you've said is true.

 

[Cybit]

I don't think the fact that Theon got upset means that Sansa's rape was there JUST to get him upset. Seems like false dichotomy for people to say that if it shows a man being affected then the focus is not on the woman. The focus can be on the woman and everyone who cares about her, and in this case Theon is emerging as Sansa's most likely ally at Winterfell.

I think it's also an artifact from folks going between the books and the show. In the books, Jeyne's purpose is absolutely purely for Theon's character growth. Since Sansa incorporated Jeyne's storyline in the show; it's valid to be worried it will be only for Theon. But I think they're basically combining what will probably be TWoW's Sansa arc with Theon's typical arc (Book 4/5) in one go.

 

[Ferrio]

Blatantly untrue

How do Danerys, Cersei, Margery, Melisandre, the Sand Snakes etc fit in with your description?

Sand Snakes got worse treatment this episode than Sansa. Not really, but god damned...

Spoiler

did they fuck that up. Least I hope they weren't that incompetent in the book.

 

[Night Angel]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm talking about how I need this world to be shown how bad it is.

Your posts are ridiculous to the point where you seem like a parody account.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I don't think the fact that Theon got upset means that Sansa's rape was there JUST to get him upset. Seems like false dichotomy for people to say that if it shows a man being affected then the focus is not on the woman. The focus can be on the woman and everyone who cares about her, and in this case Theon is emerging as Sansa's most likely ally at Winterfell.

I dunno, Sansa seemed pretty upset too because she was crying and whimpering audibly at the end of it. To think that Sansa being raped was only for Theons development, is well..ignorant.

Your posts are ridiculous to the point where you seem like a parody account.

Yeah it's usually best to ignore Opto, if you're looking for a meaningful conversation.

 

[soleil]

I think it's also an artifact from folks going between the books and the show. In the books, Jeyne's purpose is absolutely purely for Theon's character growth. Since Sansa incorporated Jeyne's storyline in the show; it's valid to be worried it will be only for Theon. But I think they're basically combining what will probably be TWoW's Sansa arc with Theon's typical arc (Book 4/5) in one go.

I see. Yeah I haven't read the books at all so my perspective is just based on the show. I assume the show is written to stand on its own... so I feel like people who read the books should try to divorce the two in their head when judging the purpose/value of one particular scene.

I dunno, Sansa seemed pretty upset too because she was crying and whimpering audibly at the end of it. To think that Sansa being raped was only for Theons development, is well..ignorant.

Right. I was saying basically that.

 

[Shamrock7r]

It's not about getting shit on as much as it's about who that shitty treatment is impacting. I can see Sansa growing from this, but it's so irritating to know we're going to be watching "she rose above her rape" again.

We've seen this theme play out before once with a major character (Daenerys), and once with minor characters (Caster's daughters). I think we've seen far more instances of "rose above" scenarios when dealing with deaths, beatings, family issues, politics, etc. These themes have repeated themselves over the seasons. I don't necessarily think it's overdoing it, because in this setting, these struggles are essentially every day norms for the characters in this world.

 

[Opto]

GRRM, when he was writing the books, has made that sort of a point, though. There's a NYTimes article that is linked multiple times in this thread, but the gist of it is that in typical medieval-fantasy type stories, how the women are treated is usually handled with baby gloves. Either everything works out fine for the women, or they never bother to show what would really (from GRRM's view) happen in that kind of situation. In modern media, any instance of rape is shown as a Giant Big Freaking Deal, that galvanizes the story and the heroine / hero / henchman to repent his ways / etc (see: Law & Order SVU, for instance). Or they're about to be raped, and hero comes in to save the day at the last second. The threat of sexual violence is used very often as a trope.

Martin's point/subversion of that is that in a "realistic" medieval-fantasy world, no one would give a flying two craps about rape; because women are property / treated terribly. The concept barely exists in Westeros, and probably only as a function of power hierarchy (if someone did it to someone higher on the noble chain of command). It would happen all the time, and twice on Sunday. Which is why the story treats it so nonchalantly; because the universe the show is in treats it nonchalantly (and the story is told purely through POV, so the story and the universe are inseparable in this case.) The idea that something so brutal and vile and soul-crushing as rape would happen...basically all the damn time is supposed to be one of the shocking and thought-provoking parts of the series. The idea that humanity is the biggest monster in a world full of legitimate monsters (Westeros).

I recall in the books (this occurs at a time already shown in the show)

Spoiler

Stannis castrated his own soldiers (there were like, five?) who raped wildling women during the battle at the wall.

And I don't think this kind of justice being pushed came out of the blue, so there has to be some sort of moral thread throughout the country in regards to rape.

 

[Speevy]

I feel like this rape stuff has overshadowed how bad the sand snakes plot is.

Why haven't they written articles calling for all four actresses playing these characters to be fired?

I am outraged.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Right. I was saying basically that.

I was responding to the post you quoted, but just misclicked the quote. I was agreeing with you, basically.

 

[Night Angel]

I feel like this rape stuff has overshadowed how bad the sand snakes plot is.

Why haven't they written articles calling for all four actresses playing these characters to be fired?

I am outraged.

Yeah, the sand snakes are objectively terrible.

 

[Opto]

I



Yeah it's usually best to ignore Opto, if you're looking for a meaningful conversation.

I'm agreeing with you! This show needs to show rape

 

[Shamrock7r]

I recall in the books (this occurs at a time already shown in the show)

Spoiler

Stannis castrated his own soldiers (there were like, five?) who raped wildling women during the battle at the wall.

And I don't think this kind of justice being pushed came out of the blue, so there has to be some sort of moral thread throughout the country in regards to rape.

Based on the books, In the world of Westeros, by and large it seems rape goes unpunished. Publicly it's frowned upon and there are laws against it, but it's one of those things that a lot of people, no matter your familial ties and where you land on the hierarchy, do and seemingly get away with. Stannis is the exception, as he is a pretty no nonsense dude.

 

[Cybit]

I recall in the books (this occurs at a time already shown in the show)

Spoiler

Stannis castrated his own soldiers (there were like, five?) who raped wildling women during the battle at the wall.

And I don't think this kind of justice being pushed came out of the blue, so there has to be some sort of moral thread throughout the country in regards to rape.

Stannis is one of the few "good" (relatively speaking) guys in GoT - and it actually I think sort of points out how GRRM used that specific punishment for that specific crime to delineate a good guy.

 

[Solideliquid]

I agree, rape doesn't happen in a marriage. If she didn't want to be forced upon, she wouldn't have done this.

Wait...

 

[Ferrio]

Stannis is one of the few "good" (relatively speaking) guys in GoT - and it actually I think sort of points out how GRRM used that specific punishment for that specific crime to delineate a good guy.

He wouldn't of done the same thing if it was their wedding night though.

 

[Speevy]

Does anyone remember this scene? It's actually more graphic than what happens to Sansa Stark.

Janos Slynt grabs a newborn baby and cuts its throat, then holds it by the leg as he goes around drowning and stabbing children.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I recall in the books (this occurs at a time already shown in the show)

Spoiler

Stannis castrated his own soldiers (there were like, five?) who raped wildling women during the battle at the wall.

And I don't think this kind of justice being pushed came out of the blue, so there has to be some sort of moral thread throughout the country in regards to rape.

Wasn't it more because they weren't married to them. And

Spoiler

he gave them a choice between castration and marrying the wildlings

 

[Damerman]

She took that time she was dragged off by commoners stoically?

no, and she shouldn't have been. I'm saying that after being exposed to these horrid experiences, it's kind of jarring to see her go from someone who agreed to marry Ramsey, to wailing when consummation comes around. I have no doubt that her screaming gave Ramsey satisfaction and she knows that it would... why would she give him that satisfaction?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I recall in the books (this occurs at a time already shown in the show)

Spoiler

Stannis castrated his own soldiers (there were like, five?) who raped wildling women during the battle at the wall.

And I don't think this kind of justice being pushed came out of the blue, so there has to be some sort of moral thread throughout the country in regards to rape.

If it's intended to follow medieval European conceptions of rape and sexual relations, then under Roman law, which most of Europe still followed until at least the late Middle Ages, raptus, which had the literal meaning of "carrying off by force", was applied to having sex with a woman against the will of the person under whose authority she lived. Having sex with her against her will wasn't even considered. The concept of rape within marriage is a modern one - a woman was literally the property of her husband or father in the era.

I think Stannis punished his men because he intends to lead a wildling army south of the wall (don't worry, it's happened in the show at this point). It's difficult to do that when your current men are acting in a way that would alienate the wildlings.

There's an interesting article on the evolution of how society (meaning men for most of history) perceived rape written by Zoë Eckman here.

 

[Speevy]

Stannis isn't a good guy. He's a total badass though.