Subpar Spatula
Banned
Can you articulate why Jayne Poole's rape is better writing than this? How does Jayne Poole's rape make the story better?
More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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Can you articulate why Jayne Poole's rape is better writing than this? How does Jayne Poole's rape make the story better?
A random forgotten character being used as a device to redeem Theon, who is much more important in the books as a pov character or drastically altering one of the protagonists for the same effect...Are you serious?
And that's not even my main issue. My real issue is her even being there at all. The plot is nonsensical and Littlefinger and Sansa are idiots.
Plenty of eyes were batted. People got tired and complained about the consecutive episodes of Theon getting tortured since they quickly stopped adding anything to the plot.
I really hope manage to give time to Sansa's reaction to this trauma the same way they've looked at how Theon was affected by the horrible things that happened to him. She doesn't need to be broken by it or anything like that, but the show needs to actually acknowledge that it was a new level of horrible that happened to her and not just have it be another thing on the list.
Dude Abides
Banned
Story session for season 6:
"Hey guys, we have to have a way to get the audience to hate Ramsay Bolton to set up the payoff when we have him killed in some brutal way.
Uh, we've already shown him doing pretty horrible stuff.
Yeah, but our audience is pretty fucking dumb. We really need to drive home how awful he is or they won't whoop and cheer when he's killed. I know, let's have him rape Sansa on their wedding night!
But we've done the whole rape thing before.
I know, but we've got the audience adopting her POV now. If he rapes her they'll really hate him.
But we've been showing her as playing along with this scheme to ingratiate herself to the BOltons only to turn on them later. Wouldn't it make more sense for her to play along with this as well?
Who's gonna talk about that at the office on Monday? Nope. It's gotta be rape. And to make it better, we'll have her act like she doesn't expect it for some reason.
Why? Is she an idiot? Everyone knows what's supposed to happen on a wedding night.
Whatever. Our audience won't care. And we'll make Theon watch and show him crying as she wails. That way they'll know that there is still some Theon inside of Reek, and also set up his role in the inevitable revenge fantasy against Ramsay.
This all seems a bit ham-fisted. Couldn't we just have Ramsay order him to stay in the room, and end with the door closing on all three of them and her looking scared?
How many times do I have to tell you? OUR AUDIENCE IS DUMB. Subtlety is fucking lost on them. Plus, I want people to be talking about this on Slate on Monday."
I have some shocking news for you: some people dislike things for different reasons. Crazy, I know.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all...ments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/
This link does a good job of addressing the arguments against this scene, particularly about whether the rape scene was narratively justified (it was), whether it even *needs* to be narratively justified (it doesn't), and whether or not the rape was all about Theon (it wasn't).
I never said your reason for disliking the scene was not legitimate. I said it was not relevant to the thread.
This link does a good job of addressing the arguments against this scene, particularly about whether the rape scene was narratively justified (it was), whether it even *needs* to be narratively justified (it doesn't), and whether or not the rape was all about Theon (it wasn't).
I never said your reason for disliking the scene was not legitimate. I said it was not relevant to the thread.
People have been elaborating all over the thread about this.
tl;dr
1) people were not "ok" with those either.
2) people are talking about story, not mere acts. Rape, murder and torture are bad, everyone not a psycho agrees, people are arguing the validity of its use in the storytelling, as well as how good are the writers dealing with these topics.
Quoting myself, read this link and let me know if it does anything to address your point #2
WrenchNinja
Member
It doesn't.
"More to the point, this criticism is incoherent. If we already know that Ramsay is a sadist, then wouldnt it have been terrible writing to have him suddenly and without cause start acting of character by not raping Sansa?"
Article is dumb. No one is complaining it doesn't make sense for Ramsay to do what he did. Nowhere in the article does it mention how moronic it is that she agreed to marry Ramsay. She has no plan other than "Avenge them." and "make Ramsay yours", which she admitted she has no idea how to do, and it seems to be the case. An army is currently already on the way to kill Roose and Ramsey. Littlefinger says they have a bigger army, Stannis is a great commander, they'll probably win. Okay, that's great then. It doesn't make the slightest bit of sense that Sansa would put herself in danger to do something that's already going to happen without her.
It comes off as the show runners wanted Sansa to be in that scene for the outrage it would cause not because it made any sense.
That article is awful.
We already know IT IS about Theon because that is the catalyst for him saving her. His reaction that night is very important. It's about Theon redeeming himself and being freed of Ramsay. At best Sansa survives just yet another psychotic protector and manages to learn something this time? I feel like that's hoping for too much when she's already suffered Jof, Cersei, Lysa and Ramsay and learned nothing. She may even learn about Petey later on too.
We already know IT IS about Theon because that is the catalyst for him saving her. His reaction that night is very important. It's about Theon redeeming himself and being freed of Ramsay. At best Sansa survives just yet another psychotic protector and manages to learn something this time? I feel like that's hoping for too much when she's already suffered Jof, Cersei, Lysa and Ramsay and learned nothing. She may even learn about Petey later on too.
"They could have made it like the books, where its some rando named Jeyne Pool instead of our beloved Sansa Stark. That assumes rape is less horrible if we dont know the victim as well. Morally indefensible."
Article also doesn't understand why people would care more about a major character.
The red wedding was more horrifying to everyone than the baby killing montage. This is normal. People are more angry when something happens to a major character.
That's the reason people are more bothered by this shock value rape than the creasters keep shock value rape.
Article also doesn't understand why people would care more about a major character.
The red wedding was more horrifying to everyone than the baby killing montage. This is normal. People are more angry when something happens to a major character.
That's the reason people are more bothered by this shock value rape than the creasters keep shock value rape.
It is a story about war set in a quasi historical patriarchal medieval setting. Rape and prostitution* are natural by-products of such turmoil. Noble ladies like Sansa being paired off with cruel husbands was not uncommon. Does anyone have outrage for all the times Robert raped Cersie?
I agree that some of the sex in the TV GoT is superficial (aka most Littlefinger in his brothel scenes, sub plot with Ros). Tell me, what story purpose would it serve to show more consensual sex?
How can you call it bad writing when you don't know the outcome of the story plot? It is one moment in Sansa's arc. Yes, she did miscalculate how cruel that Ramsey can be, she is new to being a actual player in the game. But goes through with it anyways.
This Sansa, who is willing marry a man to regain her home while plotting her new husband's downfall is great leap forward in Sansa arc. The innocent girl of the past is now living by Cersie's rules: as a women, she is using the tools she has: her Stark title and her sex as weapons against her foes. No one expects the docile Sansa to be a threat to anyone; she is just a disgraced noble women marrying to live the lifestyle of a lady once more. Littlefinger's entire affair with Lys is also a template for what Sansa is attempting to do- bedding someone he despised in order to gain power and friends.
To be a player in the game, Sansa is going to have to do morally ambitious things. Make alliances, have people killed, kill them herself, trade sex for favors or use it to secure a future heir. It is going to cool to see if she will go the way of Cersie (bitter about life) or find happy place of power like Lady Olenna.
*obviously prostitution can exist outside of war, and does in GoT. IT is after-all the oldest profession in the world. It is job that any women can do to make money.
Resident_UA
Member
It might be terrible writing, but if you start telling writers what to write what's even the pint of having them? It's not like they put positive spin on whole situation. The scene was extremely uncomfortable to watch. There have been plenty of time where GOT glorified murder and torture, but this scene was not glorified at all.
That's what's confusing me so much about this thread. I see why people found this scene repulsive, but it's hard for me to understand why the reactions towards GOT are so... specific. As if this a scene from Enchanted or something...
It doesn't even work from a plot perspective. How would you feel if Arya got raped next season instead of a random whore because it would get people talking?
Resident_UA
Member
But we don't know why writers did this yet. Sure their reasoning might be terrible but we don't know yet. If this was really just to get people talking this would not be happening off screen.
Also if Arya was in arranged marriage they would have to tackle this issue as well. Maybe they wouldn't need to have the scene, but they would need to address it in some way.
Pyramid head
Banned
It was better because it didn't negatively affect both Sansa and Little Finger's characters. This is supposed to be the same Petyr Baylish who has been responsible for setting into motion half the events in the entire series, all without raising an eyebrow. Now all of a sudden, he's taking huge risks, gambling on the outcome of events which he has no control over and hasn't even bothered to do his homework on the other players involved.
Dreams-Visions
Member
At some point I think people are going to realize that you're talking past each other.
You're not going to convince someone who is hunkering down in their position on this that they're wrong either way.
You're not going to convince someone who is hunkering down in their position on this that they're wrong either way.
Resident_UA
Member
It's also Petyr Baylish who doesn't give a shit about anyone... Not sure what your point is...
But we do know that she was just copy and pasted onto a minor character. They already said in an interview that they did this to give the character more screen time. We know she's becoming a stronger character in the book without the rape.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
There are certainly, I think, lots of different ways they could have gone with the story timeline or otherwise, that could have let us avoid this situation or possibly made for a better story. So don't let it seem like I'm trying to say that the way they've done the story is perfect.
What I dislike about a lot of way that it has been critiqued is that many of the critiques are blanket statements or lazy as they pretend the writing is. Any issues that arise from the way the story has been done this season is less about laziness or incompetence and more from the need to condense plots and characters to fit the format of the show.
Calling it lazy makes no sense when they've essentially had to rewrite a lot of plots.
What I dislike about a lot of way that it has been critiqued is that many of the critiques are blanket statements or lazy as they pretend the writing is. Any issues that arise from the way the story has been done this season is less about laziness or incompetence and more from the need to condense plots and characters to fit the format of the show.
Calling it lazy makes no sense when they've essentially had to rewrite a lot of plots.
Peter Baelish paraded Sansa all over the Vale after she outed herself to all the lords. Sansa is recognized with Baelish by Brienne and Pod before they enter Winterfell and greet the Boltons and the smallfolk. We are supposed to believe Qyburns spy network doesn't catch this? Speaking of spynetworks not working, there is no fucking way Peter didn't know about Ramsay. This guy has gone to crazy lengths to manipulate people from far away. He would never have made them a vital part of his plan without knowin anything.
WrenchNinja
Member
"What's a Ramsay Bolton? What do you mean the entire North knows about him? Why don't I know about him?"
Because reasons
AWizardDidIt
Member
No at best Sansa now has a legitimate claim to Winterfell again and when Ramsey and Roose are killed (either by Stannis's army or internally by the staff of Winterfell "The North Remembers") she now rules over her own home again. Sansa went through this for herself because this was a calculated plan to get her back into a position of power. She grows as a character because she's realizing she can't shy away from the horrors of what someone has to do in this world to secure power. She's now "playing the game" and that requires her using marriage as a weapon.
Now you're reaching. We have to assume that what happened at the end of the last episode will have an impact to Sansa's character, Theon's and potentially shape how the future of the North will play out assuming Sansa decides to act now that she's in this position of power. Everything hinted at in this season and in the last suggests Sansa has greater agency than before and will act on this now that she has it.
World of difference from your example of a rape to a major female character as a throwaway scene just because.
Resident_UA
Member
I don't think what happens in books is relevant to any of this argument.
1. Writers of this episode didn't write books
2. Show is different enough for books not matter anymore
3. It does not matter at all to me (as a viewer) what happened in the books. That context simply does not exist. For all I know she might kill Ramsey in the next episode.
She's legitimate as in she's a wanted criminal who the Lannisters are about to crush? She's the two time wife to traitors to Stannis as well. The Boltons aren't legitimate by any King and neither is Sansa.
She's in such a position of power that she gets bullied by her husband and the kennel masters daughter. Her maid feels so sorry for her she tells her to light a lantern if she needs help. So powerful.
Her worth ends as soon as she has Ramsay Jr.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
This isn't articulating why.
Ah, so you find the scene cheesy and hamfisted but you can't actually describe how it is so you use this scenario? Your statement holds less water now.
Petyr Baylish has been taking huge risks this entire time. Early in the (TV) series he wasn't given much screen time. It's the illusion of grand scheming because you don't see his actions for the most part so we're under the assumption he does it in his sleep. Less is more applies to Petyr because we really use our own imagination to wonder how he did all that.
When I ask for people to articulate I'm not looking for, "Oh, Sansa and Littlefinger are no longer deep". Describe the deep aspects of their characters and how this scene lessens them. Broad strokes do nothing for me. It's like reading a movie review: I get you find the characters enthralling or crappy but tell me why they're crappy.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I agree it doesn't completely make sense but I think it makes some degree of sense if you think about what Ramsay does to people who turn on him. Who close enough to Ramsay to know what he does would be willing to spy on him for Littlefinger?
Also, until recently he was nothing but the bastard of a house of secondary importance. It is feasible that perhaps he wasn't considered someone important enough to use resources on.
And we have no idea how extensive Qyburn's spy network is, but given his status until recently perhaps he doesn't have agents high up enough in the Vale.
AWizardDidIt
Member
She's a suspected criminal wanted by a house that has next to 0 power anymore as evidenced by the fact that King's Landing essentially is lost to a fringe fundamentalist group.
Sansa doesn't work with any knowledge of Stannis or what he is doing.
The Boltens ARE legitimate because they were proclaimed to be wardens of the north.
The way that the showrunners worked this is allowing for Sansa to make a power grab on her own without anyone else just giving her Winterfell. It's actually the best way her arc could have progressed because she's now being given actual agency as a character. Yes, her consummation night is horrible, but it's a sacrifice she takes absolutely willingly even after that chick tells her full well the monster Ramsey is.
How does it not work from plot perspective? What do yp think Sansa should have done instead of marrying Ramsey?
I would feel just as bad for the random whore as I would for Arya. Likely worse, cause Arya has been training to kill those who cross her. Random whores have no plot armor to keep them safe and alive. If Arya were to be raped, it would suck in the moment. But it likely step in her overall arc.
I felt worse for Jenye Poole in the books than I do for Sansa who took her place in the show. Jeyne, Sansa's closest friend had been forced into prostitute by Littlefinger. She was turned into Fake Arya and sold to secure Bolton's claim over the North. She has been beaten, raped, forced into bestiality and threeways, with no hope of rescue for months. She no noble lady like Sansa who can call banners. Jenny's family is dead. She had nobody with power waiting in the wings to help her (Littlefinger, Brienne). Winter has arrived; the idea that Stannis could take Winterfell is laughable. Her only hope is Theon/Reek.
Jeyne's fate is way sadder that Sansa. While the attack is horrible, Sansa is enduring it with an end goal in mind. Jenye has no future; she is a pawn of the nobility with no agency of her own.
Boltons were the second biggest house of the North, considering Baelish is a nobody, he doesn't have the luxury of only keeping tabs on Great Houses. Ramsay is seen flaying people who surrendered for display, he hunts women in large fields outside, he parades Theon Greyjoy as a broken man in public.
Qyburns spy network is supposed to be comparable to Varys'. They have spies in Essos...
It's relevant because the show is an adaptation of the books and their reason for adapting certain scenes helps to shed light on what their goals are.
We really wanted Sansa to play a major part this season, Benioff said. If we were going to stay absolutely faithful to the book, it was going to be very hard to do that. There was as subplot we loved from the books, but it used a character thats not in the show.
From this, you can gleam that they put sansa in the place of a minor character not because they had alternate end game direction they wanted to take her but just because they wanted her to play a major part and they liked the subplot of Ramsay having a helpless victim that Theon felt sorry for.
Well I doubt that in the middle ages the "standard" was some nice romantic sex after the 4th date or something.
Very few things are "standard" in this book/show, not just sex. It's a world plunged in constant war and chaos after all.
Qyburn doesn't really have a spy network. He didn't walk into NSA: Kingslanding and tell the spies he was in charge. In fact he spends most his time in his lab working on zombie Mountain that he probably has no idea what is going on outside his door. His appointment is supposed to show how incompetent Cersei is.
I didn't believe Baelish when he said he didn't know who Ramsay was. I know creators or producers have said he was being honest but sometimes what is portrayed is up to the actor and on screen the text is saying he knows nothing but the subtext in the delivery and body language is screaming that he knows everything.
Baelish has took many a risk relying on others. Trusting Lysa to kill Jon Arryn and having her send a letter to Cat, laying the assassination attempt of Bran on Tyrion, brokering a deal between the Tyrells and Lannisters, trusting Dontos to carry out his plot. Trusting Sansa not to rat him out to the Vale Lords. It isn't his ability to manipulate people, it is his ability to adapt himself to be what people need.
Buddha Beam
Banned
How is it bad writing? "Because it didn't happen in the books" is not a valid answer.
I'm getting pretty tired of people saying," This is just bad writing!" when they haven't even seen next week's episode or how this will all play out. If anything, it's really indicative of good writing precisely because it can elicit such a strong reaction about a character people care about.
What I take away from all of this is that Littlefinger has no idea how to handle psychopaths. He let one of his prostitutes be murdered by Joffery, thinking sex would calm him down. Then he underestimated how fucking mental Ramsay truly is.
They have 0 power because Cersei Lannister has schemed to gain some and it is currently working in her favor?
Sansa doesn't work period. She hasn't don't anything.
The Boltons are finished. They can't be Wardens when no King recognizes them.
Sansa is not doing shit. She is rightly fleeing Winterfell with Theon after that wedding night.
Qyburn is master of whisperers and yes, he gets intel from spies. Not sure where you got mixed up. This isn't even secret stuff. Baelish and Sansa showed no discretion at all.
Trusting Lysa? he manipulated her most of her life, she hated her husband. And none of the other things you mentioned were even risky or things he did without knowing shit about the person.
Then again, the show Baelish openly threatens Cersei for no reason and lets Varys know he's every bit as capable as him, not in fact the amiable useful guy. He even killed Lysa without a scapegoat.
Dude Abides
Banned
I did describe it, actually. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Well the show shouldn't be censored but it also shouldn't be inmune to critics. My personal problem is that the show ended with this scene, so regardless of the outcome it was used as shock value to get people talking, it's kind of cheap.
At first I was like "well, that was expected", then when the shit hit the fan and the scene even got headlines in local newspapers (and I live in freaking Brazil) I saw clearly the writers intentions. I will hold judgement of the scene storywise, at first I thought it was unnecessary and gratitous but people have pointed out we still don't know how the story will develop and they are right, but it was a cheap shot of the writers either way.
Daenerys was sold off to an unwanted marriage she didn't want and has since become a conqueror and commander of an army. Shifts in power happen over time in this series to every character, both for good and bad. Tyrion's gone from Hand of the King to a man who committed patricide and fleeing the country and family he grew up with. Joffrey went from a prince to becoming king for a time until he was poisoned at his wedding. Oberyn's gone from winning the fight and getting the answers he wants to being tripped up and having his head caved in.
She also might get pregnant but who's to say she doesn't pull a Cersei and drinks moon tea to deny Ramsey a child and wait it out in the hope that Stannis takes over? In TV GOT pace, Stannis army will be at Winterfell in no time
AWizardDidIt
Member
Cersei hasn't gained ANY power for House Lannister, she's just stirring up shit in King's Landing so that her rivals are being disposed of. She's actually working against herself because it's only a matter of time until her plan backfires on her and her son who everyone kinda knows is born of incest. Somehow I think the fundies are going to get to her and poor Tommen soon enough.
Sansa consciously made the choice to marry Ramsey. That took incredible strength from her because she knew what situation she was stepping into.
The Boltens are recognized by the laws of the land as Wardens of the North. Tywin made it so and signed it in the King's name. It's as official as any of the House's standings in the Kingdom.
Stop pretending to know what happens from this point forward. You don't know what the plot going forward is. Even if she does flee from Winterfell, she's still now officially recognized as a legitimate ruler of it should the Boltens be killed. She can come back and reclaim her seat after whatever happens there and it will be officially recognized as hers by all of the realm.
Resident_UA
Member
I don't see how this changes anything. I still don't know if she is going to kill Ramsey in the next episode. We don't know what will happen since this is not in the books.
I really don't know how else to explain this to you. It's not like they changed the show just so this scene would happen...
Lol, not even Littlefinger knew what she was stepping into, as they made a point to mention by saying he didn't know Ramsay.
She didn't need to marry Ramsay and be raped for this to happen.
Lol. So the traitors daughter who killed Joffrey and married 2 traitors owns the North despite having no power because her dead traitor husband says so. If she's lucky, yes she will get the North, if not briefly at Stannis' leave. Probably after being forced to marry once again. Then Rickon will appear and kick her off.
That hinges on Ramsay dying and what Stannis decides to do with her. At the moment Sansa is powerless and waiting to be rescued.Daenerys was sold off to an unwanted marriage she didn't want and has since become a conqueror and commander of an army. Shifts in power happen over time in this series to every character, both for good and bad. Tyrion's gone from Hand of the King to a man who committed patricide and fleeing the country and family he grew up with. Joffrey went from a prince to becoming king for a time until he was poisoned at his wedding. Oberyn's gone from winning the fight and getting the answers he wants to being tripped up and having his head caved in.
She also might get pregnant but who's to say she doesn't pull a Cersei and drinks moon tea to deny Ramsey a child and wait it out in the hope that Stannis takes over? In TV GOT pace, Stannis army will be at Winterfell in no time
The quote I posted says that they did. "There was a subplot from the books that we loved." The subplot of Ramsay raping a girl to change Theon.
Balish is Lord Paramount of the Trident (aka not a nobody- he is the Lord of Harrenhall). His spy network is still in full swing, but your right, it doesn't reach everywhere. His knowledge of the happening in the North tend to be sketch. Until recently, the Bolton's were not a great house. And Roose has been very secretive over the year's. Likely, he was acting on information from the Lannister-Frey dealings.
What the viewer knows and what the general public of Westros knows are vastly different. Roose has keep the gossip of his bastard son's hobbies to a minimum. The Bolton's of the past are known for flaying, not Roose. Ramsey is heavily rumored to be deviant, but talk is mute due to fear of reprisal. To outsiders, Ramsey is like Joffery. People knew his was bad, just not how bad.
Time frame makes it that Qyburns network is no where as robust as Varys or Littlefingers. He only recently got royal permission and funds.
Vary has agents in Essos because he is from Essos. And has served Aerys, Robert, and Cersie. Time and connections has made his network vast. Qyburns not Essos, nor has served any major house as a spy master until now.. But he was once part of the Citadel and the Masters. He has a small network of connections, just in different places.
Each of your arguments is very questionable and they only make sense if they all hold up together, and maybe not even then.
The Boltons were not the second biggest house in the north, that's the karstarks and it seems to me that maybe even that dude at the twin towers was more powerful. Baelish is not a nobody, and I don't see what that as to do with anything?
It would be very impressive if Baelish was able to know that a dude named snow was hunting women in moat caitlin, it seems to me that even his own father didn't know about it. This is the fucking middle ages, where it takes a month to go from the capital to Winterfell, Baellish doesn't have any magical powers. We're in the fifth season and noone south of the north (the wall?) still has any clue that a fucking army of zombies is marching on them. I suppose he's probably heard something about the flaying of the greyjoy army, but so what? The flayed man is on their banners, it doesn't necessarily means that Ramsay in particular is a psychopath.
And even if we granted you all of this, Baelish could still plan to give Sansa to a psychopath, why the fuck not?
A for sansa I'm not convinced either, she was revealed to the 2 or 3 biggest families in the veil, and these people hate the lannisters' guts. I don't see how the new guy's network could be compared to Varys' in any way. Vary has been at it for what, 30 years?
Rap. The true menace to society
Yoda
Member
I don't think the outrage is warranted purely based on context. If you object to the depiction at all then you should also object to the depiction of murder (which is worse) on the same principal. Yet this show does it left and right without much as a second thought and never gets any flak? Could it be because were "OK" with people getting mutilated, executed, beheaded, etc... but rape is much less common we perceive something is wrong? For anyone who agrees with the notion that depicting rape in an entertainment sense is WORSE than depicting murder I'd like to hear the arguments.
Note: from a creative standpoint in the show I found the rape scene counter to Sansa's development of agency and thought it derailed such. In that sense it shouldn't have happened, but the mere idea of rape = not allowed when we implicitly condone far worse?
Note: from a creative standpoint in the show I found the rape scene counter to Sansa's development of agency and thought it derailed such. In that sense it shouldn't have happened, but the mere idea of rape = not allowed when we implicitly condone far worse?
He is the Master of Whispers but Varys didn't leave him a rolodex of spies. He has the title so he can be on the small council because Cersei trusts him. He has contribute no intelligence of any note to Cersei.
Setting up Tyrion was a huge risk. It could have backfired spectacularly. What if Tyrion avoids Catelyn and arrives in the capital and is arrested by Eddard. The whole plan could have backfired in spectacular fashion.
The scene where Baelish threatens Cersei is a well thought out scene. She comes to him needing his knowledge, his spies and he takes the opportunity to see how far he can push her and assess her reaction. She is not as callow as he thought. That is a calculated risk as when she asks a favour he knows he is not expendable. He even gauges his expendability first by enquiring about her relationship with Varys.
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