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[Sadist]

It's also telling how in the midst of the oppressing bleakness that was Ultimatum, the Spider-Man tie-in was all about hope and Jonah realizing what a fucking dick he's been by trying to stomp on a selfless Spider-Man to make himself feel better.

Really made me appreciate his character to as opposed to the cartoonish 616 version who keeps shitting on him despite being shown firsthand time and time again he's a hero.

Ha, I was about to post that particular moment. The Spider-Man tie-in is the only thing worth a damn in Ultimatum. Now there's a 1610 character I wanted to replace the 616 version with. Too bad he died pre-incursion

Also, my favourite moments with Jameson; well about him technicly

Edit: Yes @ Memento Mori, JJJ

 

[Memento Mori]

Ha, I was about to post that particular moment. The Spider-Man tie-in is the only thing worth a damn in Ultimatum. Now there's a 1610 character I wanted to replace the 616 version with. Too bad he died pre-incursion

He actually got better and then ran off with MJ. Oh you meant JJJ didn't you?

 

[DeathyBoy]

Well as Bendis actually wrote the best storyline in the Ultimate Universe, Bendis seems like he wanted to do cool stuff. Sad to hear about Millar being al depressing. Allthough I'm still disappointed about how he ended Ultimate Spider-Man two months ago. Very weird.

It's baffling they didn't have Bendis writing Ultimate X-Men...

 

[Sou Da]

This was pretty obvious, which is why I previously referred to Millar as a sociopath. Ultimate Spider-man was fantastic - a proper reboot for the modern age, while Ultimates was basically "let's make the iconic heros assholes and psychopaths and incestual" and Ultimate X-men, while fun, was "let's take the X-men and slam their faces into the cement over and over and over again while fucking with your favorite characters".

How did X-men end? Last I saw they were in the desert

Ha, I was about to post that particular moment. The Spider-Man tie-in is the only thing worth a damn in Ultimatum. Now there's a 1610 character I wanted to replace the 616 version with. Too bad he died pre-incursion

You don't want Slott writing that JJ trust me

 

[DeathyBoy]

How did X-men end? Last I saw they were in the desert

Was this before Ultimatum? Because after that shitstorm it good again, and Bendis had Kitty Pryde punching out Galactus.

 

[Sou Da]

Was this before Ultimatum? Because after that shitstorm it good again, and Bendis had Kitty Pryde punching out Galactus.

After. I think it was All new Ultimate

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Not sure it's been discussed yet, but there's this great article that covers the history of the Ultimate universe. What made it great, what made it fail. A couple of creators were interviewed, but Loeb refused if there were questions about Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/05/secret-history-of-ultimate-marvel.html

Especially thought this was a cool bit of insight:

"Marvel Comics — the superhero-comics company that had invented the Avengers, Spider-Man, the X-Men, and countless other icons"

Yes, Marvel invented those characters. The sprung ring out of the fuckin' air the Marvel logo was hanging around one day.

 

[Sadist]

You don't want Slott writing that JJ trust me

Oh yeah.

Current JJJ in Slott's is garbage. Same old same old. Just as stupid as the Black Cat thing.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think Ultimates sort of worked (until 3 onward, obviously), because it took a more realistic approach to characters for a while. Hulk in the 616 isn't really a monster, he's just called that as a legacy. Ultimate Hulk was a fucking monster. Captain America doesn't really have old-fashioned beliefs in the 616. In Ultimates, you have a soldier from 60 (now 70) years ago acting somewhat like you'd expect a soldier from that time period to act. Aggressive, loud and cock sure. Tony Stark was this lovable billionaire genius in the 616 (until Civil War). How many billionaires have you read about that weren't complete douchebags? That's Tony in the Ultimate. Natasha is actually a spy. Pym being a wife beater was definitely a low blow, but his insecurities mirror pretty perfectly the mindset of an abusive piece of shit. Pietro is "cocky" in the 616, but not really, right? He occasionally is sort of arrogant. In the Ultimates, you sort of hated him.

Now, Ultimates 3 just turned on the grossness, but 1+2 were pretty good. USM was still better and X-Men just sucked on toast.

 

[Parallax]

I think Ultimates sort of worked (until 3 onward, obviously), because it took a more realistic approach to characters for a while. Hulk in the 616 isn't really a monster, he's just called that as a legacy. Ultimate Hulk was a fucking monster. Captain America doesn't really have old-fashioned beliefs in the 616. In Ultimates, you have a soldier from 60 (now 70) years ago acting somewhat like you'd expect a soldier from that time period to act. Aggressive, loud and cock sure. Tony Stark was this lovable billionaire genius in the 616 (until Civil War). How many billionaires have you read about that weren't complete douchebags? That's Tony in the Ultimate. Natasha is actually a spy. Pym being a wife beater was definitely a low blow, but his insecurities mirror pretty perfectly the mindset of an abusive piece of shit. Pietro is "cocky" in the 616, but not really, right? He occasionally is sort of arrogant. In the Ultimates, you sort of hated him.

Now, Ultimates 3 just turned on the grossness, but 1+2 were pretty good. USM was still better and X-Men just sucked on toast.

stark was a dick long before civil war

 

[WanderingWind]

stark was a dick long before civil war

As much as any superhero, really. But Civil War was his definite heel turn and so many of his arc sense have been trying to correct that. But he's never really acted like an over-privileged, wealthy dude with a suit of armor should until Ultimates.

I mean, the movie even sort of cribbed from his ultmiates portrayal. "Genius, billionaire, playboy philanthropist" is definitely Ultimate Stark. Hell, if it wasn't for Reed, he'd be the biggest dickhead in the Ultimates lineup.

 

[Toa TAK]

Ultimates 3 was fantastic.

Well as Bendis actually wrote the best storyline in the Ultimate Universe, Bendis seems like he wanted to do cool stuff. Sad to hear about Millar being al depressing. Allthough I'm still disappointed about how he ended Ultimate Spider-Man two months ago. Very weird.

Yeah, it just seems so random and the conclusion doesn't feel earned at all. What a bummer compared to the previous line before MMUSM.

 

[WanderingWind]

No matter what book is posted, somebody will call it fantastic. Ultimates 3 is one of the top 5 worst mainstream comics ever published and has rightfully taken its place as a blight on the entire industry by nearly everybody.

 

[Gambit 1138]

I think Ultimates sort of worked (until 3 onward, obviously), because it took a more realistic approach to characters for a while. Hulk in the 616 isn't really a monster, he's just called that as a legacy. Ultimate Hulk was a fucking monster. Captain America doesn't really have old-fashioned beliefs in the 616. In Ultimates, you have a soldier from 60 (now 70) years ago acting somewhat like you'd expect a soldier from that time period to act. Aggressive, loud and cock sure. Tony Stark was this lovable billionaire genius in the 616 (until Civil War). How many billionaires have you read about that weren't complete douchebags? That's Tony in the Ultimate. Natasha is actually a spy. Pym being a wife beater was definitely a low blow, but his insecurities mirror pretty perfectly the mindset of an abusive piece of shit. Pietro is "cocky" in the 616, but not really, right? He occasionally is sort of arrogant. In the Ultimates, you sort of hated him.

Now, Ultimates 3 just turned on the grossness, but 1+2 were pretty good. USM was still better and X-Men just sucked on toast.

I'd argue 616 stark is a bigger asshole than Ultimate Stark. This is even brought up in Ultimate End. Ultimate Stark was always portrayed as gentlehearted but a little arrogant and egotistical on the outside.

 

[Toa TAK]

No matter what book is posted, somebody will call it fantastic. Ultimates 3 is one of the top 5 worst mainstream comics ever published and has rightfully taken its place as a blight on the entire industry by nearly everybody.

Even ...Sin's Past?

 

[WanderingWind]

I'd argue 616 stark is a bigger asshole than Ultimate Stark. This is even brought up in Ultimate End. Ultimate Stark was always portrayed as gentlehearted but a little arrogant and egotistical on the outside.

I think he's definitely become a bigger douche since Civil War, but I don't recall him being that was prior to his Ultimates portrayal. I mean, more so than any other superhero with decades of backstory. Then again, Iron Man isn't exactly my favorite comic, so I mostly know him from his Avengers (the comic) persona, which I'm pretty familiar with. Maybe he's a bigger douche in his solo series. Prior to the Ultimates, he was Dudley Do Right In a Can on the Avengers.

Even ...Sin's Past?

1. Identity Crisis
2. Ultmates 3/Ultimatum
3. One More Day
4. Sin's Past
5. Dark Knight Strikes Again

 

[googleplex]

Was this before Ultimatum? Because after that shitstorm it good again, and Bendis had Kitty Pryde punching out Galactus.

To be fair... It was a severely weakened and starved Galactus in the wrong universe vs a insanely powered up Kitty Pride on Giant man juice.

 

[Sou Da]

Ultimates 3 was fantastic.



Yeah, it just seems so random and the conclusion doesn't feel earned at all. What a bummer compared to the previous line before MMUSM.

Between this and LOK is your gimmick terrible taste?

 

[Parallax]

As much as any superhero, really. But Civil War was his definite heel turn and so many of his arc sense have been trying to correct that. But he's never really acted like an over-privileged, wealthy dude with a suit of armor should until Ultimates.

I mean, the movie even sort of cribbed from his ultmiates portrayal. "Genius, billionaire, playboy philanthropist" is definitely Ultimate Stark. Hell, if it wasn't for Reed, he'd be the biggest dickhead in the Ultimates lineup.

no, the crossing was his heel turn, and like everything with stark, they just retconned it away. same with armor wars. dude has been an asshole for a long time

 

[googleplex]

no, the crossing was his heel turn, and like everything with stark, they just retconned it away. same with armor wars. dude has been an asshole for a long time

So has cap. Cap has been a complete douchebag since the Civil War. And he only got worst in this newest event.

Cap, Iceman and Storm have all turned into total assholes lately.

 

[The Silver]

So has cap. Cap has been a complete douchebag since the Civil War. And he only got worst in this newest event.

Cap, Iceman and Storm have all turned into total assholes lately.

that's what happens when you end up on the wrong side of #Cyclopswasright

 

[Squire]

So has cap. Cap has been a complete douchebag since the Civil War. And he only got worst in this newest event.

Cap, Iceman and Storm have all turned into total assholes lately.

Oh, I know. What with his not wanting to sacrifice infinite lives to save only 616, his wanting to hold heroes to the same level of accountability as he would anyone else, his giving Stark a beating he had had coming for years.

Real asshole, that Rogers.

 

[Parallax]

So has cap. Cap has been a complete douchebag since the Civil War. And he only got worst in this newest event.

Cap, Iceman and Storm have all turned into total assholes lately.

i dont think theyve retconned away rogers assholishness though

 

[googleplex]

Oh, I know. What with his not wanting to sacrifice infinite lives to save only 616, his wanting to hold heroes to the same level of accountability as he would anyone else, his giving Stark a beating he had had coming for years.

Real asshole, that Rogers.

And never once did he EVER come up with an alternative or a plan. All he did was get in the way of mother fuckers that were ACTUALITY trying to solve the problem and in the end accomplish nothing

And don't even get me started on AvX!

Fuck Captain America.

 

[Parallax]

And never once did he EVER come up with an alternative or a plan. All he did was get in the way of mother fucker there were ACTUALITY trying to solve the problem and in the end accomplish nothing

And don't even get me started on AvX!

Fuck Captain America.

too bad a member of those groups knew there was no way to succeed. they did all the dirt for literally no reason.

 

[shadyspace]

Yeah. I sure would have liked if just one other character would have asked Steve, "Well, what else should we be doing, genius?"

 

[googleplex]

too bad a member of those groups knew there was no way to succeed. they did all the dirt for literally no reason.

irrelevant. The fact is they were trying and actually working the problem. Steve didn't do shit but be an old cantankerous asshole.

 

[WanderingWind]

Yeah. I sure would have liked if just one other character would have asked Steve, "Well, what else should we be doing, genius?"

They did, and his answer was "lol I dunno, but I'm in a comic book, so we'll think of something."

Meanwhile, Namor's under the table trying to rub one out over the one time Sue looked at him. Fuck the Illuminati too. Cyclops would have figured that shit out in a heartbeat, but Prof gave the gem to the wrong guy.

 

[Coriolanus]

He was never a parody. He just sucked.

MH laid out how misguided almost every step of his existence has been pretty cleanly.

Not quite. Dude's got a book called Paramilitary Christmas Special and he was rejected by heaven and hell, which is obviously taking the piss at the revolving grave nature of most superheroes.

The problem with 90's lobo, which is generally what most of his fans like, is that due to the way the characer is built, he cannot interact with nearly all other players. Have Lobo walking around on Earth? Either supes kicks him out or you're gonna see an ocean of blood forming quite quick because, as mentioned, Lobo's a legit pyschopath.

Then you've got the problem that Lobo is generally depicted as as strong and even more durable than Supes, and the mess is complete. Can't have him tag teaming anyone since he's too likely to backstab and kill them with impunity. Can't have him hanging around earth because murderous overpowered psychopath that does it for the lulz. Can't do anything but the occasional solo book taking the piss, really.

Lobo is a deadpool that can't be stopped, can't lose, and truly does not give a single fuck about anyone or anything else. Besides space dolphins and his bike because reasons.

He's unworkable.

So has cap. Cap has been a complete douchebag since the Civil War. And he only got worst in this newest event.

Cap, Iceman and Storm have all turned into total assholes lately.

Cosmic Cap was pretty dang noble (aside from how he handled Starbrand). Then he came back to earth for good, infinity ended, and all the shit started.

 

[shadyspace]

They did, and his answer was "lol I dunno, but I'm in a comic book, so we'll think of something."

Meanwhile, Namor's under the table trying to rub one out over the one time Sue looked at him. Fuck the Illuminati too. Cyclops would have figured that shit out in a heartbeat, but Prof gave the gem to the wrong guy.

He was given the opportunity to and all he did was chow down on a phoenix egg.

 

[Parallax]

irrelevant. The fact is they were trying and actually working the problem. Steve didn't do shit but be an old cantankerous asshole.

no it isnt, someone held back information that there was nothing that could be done. was steve being an old dick? no doubt. but the illuminati werent doing a damn thing to better there chances, and one of them knew it the whole time.

 

[PsychBat!]

Between this and LOK is your gimmick terrible taste?

Pretty sure it's not a gimmick.

 

[Squire]

too bad a member of those groups knew there was no way to succeed. they did all the dirt for literally no reason.

I think almost all them knew, honestly. Knew it had next to know real faith whatsoever.

Yeah. I sure would have liked if just one other character would have asked Steve, "Well, what else should we be doing, genius?"

That would require they actually respect him. But they don't and he recognizes it, too.

 

[MHWilliams]

that's what happens when you end up on the wrong side of #Cyclopswasright

Preach.

Not quite. Dude's got a book called Paramilitary Christmas Special and he was rejected by heaven and hell, which is obviously taking the piss at the revolving grave nature of most superheroes.

The problem with 90's lobo, which is generally what most of his fans like, is that due to the way the characer is built, he cannot interact with nearly all other players. Have Lobo walking around on Earth? Either supes kicks him out or you're gonna see an ocean of blood forming quite quick because, as mentioned, Lobo's a legit pyschopath.

Then you've got the problem that Lobo is generally depicted as as strong and even more durable than Supes, and the mess is complete. Can't have him tag teaming anyone since he's too likely to backstab and kill them with impunity. Can't have him hanging around earth because murderous overpowered psychopath that does it for the lulz. Can't do anything but the occasional solo book taking the piss, really.

Lobo is a deadpool that can't be stopped, can't lose, and truly does not give a single fuck about anyone or anything else. Besides space dolphins and his bike because reasons.

He's unworkable.

Pretty much. 90's Lobo is an Elseworlds character at best. People hate the New 52 Lobo, but that guy? He can interact with the rest of the DC universe.

He was given the opportunity to and all he did was chow down on a phoenix egg.

Which, knowing Hickman, will probably be integral to the entire return.

 

[shadyspace]

Which, knowing Hickman, will probably be integral to the entire return.

Of course. But it was kind of funny in context with the entire universe falling apart.

 

[labaronx]

no, the crossing was his heel turn, and like everything with stark, they just retconned it away. same with armor wars. dude has been an asshole for a long time

Stark was a total asshole in Armor wars

 

[googleplex]

no it isnt, someone held back information that there was nothing that could be done. was steve being an old dick? no doubt. but the illuminati werent doing a damn thing to better there chances, and one of them knew it the whole time.

So I guess you missed the part where they tried the cosmic cube, explored moving everyone off planet, sent Hank pym into the multiverse and even almost injured Reed's son trying to find a solution.?

Yes they literally tried everything all while bring hunted by Cap. Captain America is a single mined asshole when he thinks he's right. The only way they even got him to stop and listen was to turn the tables and basically capture him.

Seriously fuck Cap.

 

[guek]

irrelevant. The fact is they were trying and actually working the problem. Steve didn't do shit but be an old cantankerous asshole.

Steve tried to hold them accountable and was mind wiped for it. That was the only reason he joined the illuminati in the first place, to be a voice of sensible reason for the common man. While I think Steve had a far too large ax to grind with Tony by the conclusion of Time Runs Out, I can't blame the guy. Once they started contemplating destroying Earths, Steve knew they'd ultimately follow through with it. And the second he voiced dissent, they erased his memory and then manipulated him and the rest of the Avengers while they tried to work on the "real" problem. Steve became too obsessed with bringing them to justice but ultimately, the illuminati brought all that ire onto themselves. Too much was at stake for the fate of the multiverse to be left in the hands of five people.

I totally agree with Blue Marvel in these panels:

The illuminati should have turned themselves into shield and then try to work out a great solution involving everybody. Stuff like the raft being kept secret, I can understand...but everything else? Nah, man. Cap was right.

 

[Squire]

Fuck Cyke. Fake, try-hard revolutionary that wouldn't have done a goddamn thing with Xavier's gem. It belonged in the hands of an intellectual and that's where it went.

If not though, you can bet Cyke would be the very last pic.

 

[Toa TAK]

1. Identity Crisis
2. Ultmates 3/Ultimatum
3. One More Day
4. Sin's Past
5. Dark Knight Strikes Again

I can get behind this, actually. Minus U3.

Between this and LOK is your gimmick terrible taste?

Don't bring Kuvira into this.

 

[guek]

Fuck Cyke. Fake, try-hard revolutionary that wouldn't have done a goddamn thing with Xavier's gem. It belonged in the hands of an intellectual and that's where it went.

If not though, you can bet Cyke would be the very last pic.

I seriously don't understand the love Scott gets from some people. I haven't liked how he's been written since Schism. Had Xavier given him the gem, he'd have probably turned down the offer from the illuminati to join, pretend like he didn't have the gem, and then try to use it for some dumb fuckery that would blow up in his face.

 

[googleplex]

Steve tried to hold them accountable and was mind wiped for it. That was the only reason he joined the illuminati in the first place, to be a voice of sensible reason for the common man. While I think Steve had a far too large ax to grind with Tony by the conclusion of Time Runs Out, I can't blame the guy. Once they started contemplating destroying Earths, Steve knew they'd ultimately follow through with it. And the second he voiced dissent, they erased his memory and then manipulated him and the rest of the Avengers while they tried to work on the "real" problem. Steve became too obsessed with bringing them to justice but ultimately, the illuminati brought all that ire onto themselves. Too much was at stake for the fate of the multiverse to be left in the hands of five people.

I totally agree with Blue Marvel in these panels:



The illuminati should have turned themselves into shield and then try to work out a great solution involving everybody. Stuff like the raft being kept secret, I can understand...but everything else? Nah, man. Cap was right.

1. Yes, they made a world destroying bomb but none of them had the heart to use its save Namor. Exactly what do they need to be held accountable for?

2. Turn themselves in to shield for what? The crime of trying to save all of creation? Fuck shield too while we're at it.

 

[guek]

1. Yes, they made a world destroying bomb but none of them had the heart to use its save Namor. Exactly what do they need to be held accountable for?

2. Turn themselves in to shield for what? The crime of trying to save all of creation? Fuck shield too while we're at it.

They made the bombs. They created a scenario which led to the Cabal going on a mass genocide. And that first Earth? They're totally responsible for blowing it to shit, even if Namor pulled the trigger. At the time, they all recognized they wanted to use those bombs as intended but didn't want to take responsibility for it. And then when Namor pulls the trigger, they STILL don't want to take any responsibility for their actions. All of the Illuminati's mistakes have always been built around the notion that they know best for the planet. It's NEVER worked out for them.

But Tony, especially, was the biggest douche, which is why Steve was so pissed by the end. Tony knew all along it was almost certainly a lost cause and still didn't see fit to involve the world at large or anyone but himself on the pretense of "buying time." Time for what? None of it mattered. It's not like the Avengers wouldn't have opted to deal with the Builders. The only thing the Illuminati accomplished was building the raft and limiting their scope and resources in dealing with a multi-universal problem. And maybe they ultimately would have had to destroy that first Earth anyway, but they as group of self appointed gods had no right to make that decision by themselves.

 

[Coriolanus]

Right.

let us get some things straight.

The illuminati made one major, humongous, ungodly fuckup, all others being irrelevant.

They told Vic to get bent.

Fact is that, the way the story was structured, several elements were needed for Vic, our true god and savior, to carry out his/MM's plan. These elements, chiefly, were:

1. Tchalla accidentally stumbling upon an incursion.
2. Steve stopping the Builder Armada.
3. Illuminati building the bombs.
4. Namor actually using the bombs.

That they mindwiped Steve is irrelevant, he'd actively antagonize the other points. That they built the bombs is irrelevant, they needed to be built. That Namor had the balls to use the bombs is irrelevant, 616 would've died sooner if he hadn't AND he got UN backing for their continued use (at which point steve also got told to get bent by the whole world).

One should keep in mind that the reason the rest of the world were hunting the illuminati wasn't because they saved za worudo, but because they were trying to stop the cabal.

Oh but the Cabal was cruel and whatever the fuck. Yes, and they did what needed to be done. In order to save trillions, they actively killed hundreds or thousands. Aside from the people on the earths that they personally murdered, Thanos, Namor and company have saved more people (or prolonged their life) than any other characters in the history of Marvel and unwittingly ensured that some form of reality could be saved.

Vic needed the extra time afforded by the incursions, and used it well. Every player in the illuminati did a lot to ensure that. Every player in the Cabal did a lot to ensure that. Every single incursion that 616 faced mattered.

No one gets to judge the Cabal. They went public, got support, and did what they had to do. With sprinkles on top, since you might as well enjoy your work.

 

[Sadist]

How's this;

Everyone is an asshole. Steve does have the right to be mad as hell when the Iluminati mindwiped him, but his grudge went way overboard when he lost his super soldier serum. But it all came from being left behind and having no info whatsoever on all the shit going down. He was always in the loop, but being left in the dark? Oh no you didn't. The Iluminati are dummies as well. They always aks Namor to tag along and in the end they always disagree with the guy. It's always the same.

 

[Parallax]

So I guess you missed the part where they tried the cosmic cube, explored moving everyone off planet, sent Hank pym into the multiverse and even almost injured Reed's son trying to find a solution.?

Yes they literally tried everything all while bring hunted by Cap. Captain America is a single mined asshole when he thinks he's right. The only way they even got him to stop and listen was to turn the tables and basically capture him.

Seriously fuck Cap.

who isnt a single minded asshole when they think they are right though? certainly not everyone in the illuminati right? the problem is that they didnt realize that they were playing a game they couldnt win, and were too arrogant to go for help until it was too late. tony could have told them that they couldnt win, and to mostly focus their efforts on trying to secure the survival of humanity, but when did that come up?

 

[Coriolanus]

who isnt a single minded asshole when they think they are right though? certainly not everyone in the illuminati right? the problem is that they didnt realize that they were playing a game they couldnt win, and were too arrogant to go for help until it was too late. tony could have told them that they couldnt win, and to mostly focus their efforts on trying to secure the survival of humanity, but when did that come up?

Valeria.

Coincidentally, she also told them that they could not win. Fat lot of good that did.

 

[guek]

Right.

let us get some things straight.

The illuminati made one major, humongous, ungodly fuckup, all others being irrelevant.

They told Vic to get bent.

Fact is that, the way the story was structured, several elements were needed for Vic, our true god and savior, to carry out his/MM's plan. These elements, chiefly, were:

1. Tchalla accidentally stumbling upon an incursion.
2. Steve stopping the Builder Armada.
3. Illuminati building the bombs.
4. Namor actually using the bombs.

That they mindwiped Steve is irrelevant, he'd actively antagonize the other points. That they built the bombs is irrelevant, they needed to be built. That Namor had the balls to use the bombs is irrelevant, 616 would've died sooner if he hadn't AND he got UN backing for their continued use (at which point steve also got told to get bent by the whole world).

One should keep in mind that the reason the rest of the world were hunting the illuminati wasn't because they saved za worudo, but because they were trying to stop the cabal.

Oh but the Cabal was cruel and whatever the fuck. Yes, and they did what needed to be done. In order to save trillions, they actively killed hundreds or thousands. Aside from the people on the earths that they personally murdered, Thanos, Namor and company have saved more people (or prolonged their life) than any other characters in the history of Marvel and unwittingly ensured that some form of reality could be saved.

Vic needed the extra time afforded by the incursions, and used it well. Every player in the illuminati did a lot to ensure that. Every player in the Cabal did a lot to ensure that. Every single incursion that 616 faced mattered.

No one gets to judge the Cabal. They went public, got support, and did what they had to do. With sprinkles on top, since you might as well enjoy your work.

All of what you listed as irrelevant were only so in hindsight. That doesn't make any of it right. But yes, they absolutely should have involved Doom. Even if they hadn't gotten the world at large involved, a course of action I could understand and stand behind, they still should have told more people. They lucked out in the end but who is to say it couldn't have gotten there a different way? And if they had ended at the same conclusions, at least they'd know they got there together rather than fragmented and at each other's throats. Doom saved them all but the Illuminati didn't even know they were helping him to begin with.

 

[MHWilliams]

I seriously don't understand the love Scott gets from some people. I haven't liked how he's been written since Schism. Had Xavier given him the gem, he'd have probably turned down the offer from the illuminati to join, pretend like he didn't have the gem, and then try to use it for some dumb fuckery that would blow up in his face.

Cyke is the dude that deals with the reality he's given. And the fact that he gets crap while people will defend the Illuminati, Scarlet Witch, Wolverine, Cap, or whatever, is simple randomness.

Schism? I've already gone over why he's 100 percent right, but let me restate it: Mutants live in a fictional universe predicated on conflict, those who don't fight or know how to defend themselves will inevitably die. Full stop, in every case. Phoenix shit? Bro had Cable for the future telling him how everything would work not out if the Avengers had their way. AvX? You don't come to my house with an army and demand I hand over a child, no questions asked, especially after you were incognito over my people's most horrible genocidal events when you should've been there protecting them. Or when I know acquiescing to your demands means the death of the world. Xavier's death? Scott will take that L and has - which is odd, because no one hated Wolverine over being brainwashed and killing Northstar or Jean for annihilating an entire planet - and everyone kicked Xavier out years ago for enslaving Danger.

Marvel Now? What has Scott really done? Saved mutants? That's what the X-Men are supposed to do. Punked the Avengers? So? Aired a legitimate grievance on TV? Talked to an Omega-level mutant instead of bombing him into oblivion? What has he actually done that's evil?

Seriously, people hate him, but it's over nothing more than not coloring inside the lines.

 

[Parallax]

Valeria.

Coincidentally, she also told them that they could not win. Fat lot of good that did.

that kinda proves my point in a way though. noone in the illuminati would have taken no for an answer and continued going alone until they literally couldnt. neither would steve and he tried to strongarm everyone into going along his way, which was fucking retarded. and everyone who just had all this shit fall into their laps are sitting wondering why they werent consulted as if they dont have a stake in the game.