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[Josh7289]

I never thought this was a good idea.

You should not be entitled to a refund because of your subjective reaction to a piece of entertainment. If the product doesn't work, or perform as advertised, or is faulty in some way, it is consumer rights to be compensated for being misled.

It is not consumer rights to demand a refund for a piece of entertainment you didn't enjoy. "No refund for content" is a thing for a reason. When you pay for entertainment you are not paying to see if you like it or not.

The "no questions asked" policy is the problem.

I'm inclined to agree. If a game works fine and wasn't falsely advertised, then I'm hesitant to say that a customer deserves a refund just for not liking the game after playing it, in the same way that a customer can't expect a refund for a movie ticket just because they ended up not liking the movie after sitting there and watching it through for two hours.

Valve has reserved the right to revoke refund privileges from customers who abuse it, though, so I guess we'll have to see how this plays out.

 

[Archaix]

What do you mean? If the game wasn't purchased through Steam then I'm pretty sure you can't get a refund for it. Every transaction is saved on your account so they and you know what you have bought, when, for what and how long you played it.

That's what I meant by obvious answer. Steam clearly has a record of your transactions, they aren't just going on the honor system here. The idea that somebody would get a key from a source outside Steam and then get a refund (at full price, nonetheless) is absurd on its face and even the smallest bit of thought about the situation would reveal that.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Why are you trying to spin a very basic refund policy as some outrageous plight on developers? They aren't special snowflakes that deserve more pardons than any other business.

With all due respect, I think the onus is on finding a balance between the rights of consumers to get refunds and the ability of people to make money.

This isn't like a table, use it for two hours and go 'oh, fuck this table!'. It's not like a sandwich, either. But it's MORE like a sandwich than a table, you dig? It's a digital consumer good with a very short lifespan once consumed - even less than movies or music. It has very little value.

You can't get a refund halfway through a movie. You just walk out. Unless there's some kind of horrible flaw with the projector.

I would like to be able to stop serial refunders from buying my game on Steam, just like I ban problem customers from my store. Goes both ways.

And frankly? Fuck the 'market' and 'consumers' as these majestic catch-alls which override any other concern. Are we even discussing the fact that NINETY-SEVEN percent of all those people who call themselves game developers earn less than 500 bucks a year? I laughed at first and crossed my arms and stroked my beard and had a good laugh but this refund policy comes in that context.

I support people's right to have control over their spending, but this is bad rule design and encourages abuse. There's a hundred other ways to do it. I think even 'two days and half an hour' is a big improvement.

 

[HowZatOZ]

How are people getting away with refunds from years ago? Seems like the system is a tad broken and people are abusing it.

 

[Mononoke]

many indie games can be beaten in two hours, its like watching a movie then asking for a refund at the end. Steam needs Devs to post average beat times, then allow maybe 1/4 of that time and under to qualify for a refund.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea.

But I've seen a lot of people argue that if you don't like something, that should be reason enough to get a refund. I wonder where that line is drawn?

I mean, I've seen folks like Sterling argue it should be a 7-day open policy no questions asked. So instead of an amount of time played, it's an emphasis on whether the product was quality to the consumers standards.

I guess what I'm getting at is, it seems like a difference in overall philosophy/mentality when it comes to consumer rights.

 

[Corpekata]

How are people getting away with refunds from years ago? Seems like the system is a tad broken and people are abusing it.

They aren't. The current system is allowing requests for 6 months, but those have to be manually reviewed.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours
- Are making niche games of any kind at all
- Are making narrative games
- Are making games where art isn't the focus

Seriously good for game buyers who:

- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever

If you are into smaller, niche games chances are you are willing to pay the developer.
If you weren't willing to pay the developer before, you always had that option on PC.
And if you had no interest in the game but tried it because you can return it now that's also not a lost sale.
Non issue.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

That's what I meant by obvious answer. Steam clearly has a record of your transactions, they aren't just going on the honor system here. The idea that somebody would get a key from a source outside Steam and then get a refund (at full price, nonetheless) is absurd on its face and even the smallest bit of thought about the situation would reveal that.

I see what you mean now. I'll just say, whoosh to me.

 

[HariKari]

Non issue.

What % of Steam games are shorter than 2 hours with no replayability? Has to be a short list.

 

[LurkerPrime]

If you are into smaller, niche games chances are you are willing to pay the developer.
If you weren't willing to pay the developer before, you always had that option on PC.
And if you had no interest in the game but tried it because you can return it now that's also not a lost sale.
Non issue.

Jim Sterling compared the refund crisis to the piracy scare, and I think he's spot on.

What % of Steam games are shorter than 2 hours with no replayability? Has to be a short list.

Qwiboo games is jumping up and down right now.

 

[23qwerty]

Isn't an easy solution to give a limited number of refunds? Like 3 a year or something?

 

[Clockwork5]

How are people getting away with refunds from years ago? Seems like the system is a tad broken and people are abusing it.

Really? people are abusing a refund system? Shocking.

Caveat Emptor used to mean something...

 

[midasmulligan]

Any retailer that does business has been doing this for years, it's something consumers demand. It does, of course, leave you open to outright dishonesty, but that's the cost of doing business. The problem I have with pc games is that you never really know how they'll run on your system. This is a great case for demos, as I imagine a lot of people will just want to know if their rigs can handle a game or not, and will use the return system like a demo.

 

[SeanTSC]

People's overreactions over a single week of data the first time ever that easily accessible refunds go up after they were next to impossible to get are ADORABLES.

Absolutely useless, meaningless numbers that are not capable of even remotely indicating what kind of impact this will have on the market long term.

 

[AkelisRain]

I want to get a refund on MKX but somehow I put in 16 hours. Even though it runs like shit on my PC.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I can totally see developers deliberately padding out the first two hours of play to avoid people finishing and refunding. This policy, if it stands up as it currently is, will definitely negatively affect the shortest games available.

 

[aspiegamer]

This isn't like a table, use it for two hours and go 'oh, fuck this table!'. It's not like a sandwich, either. But it's MORE like a sandwich than a table, you dig?

This is a fantastic quote.

I support people's right to have control over their spending, but this is bad rule design and encourages abuse. There's a hundred other ways to do it. I think even 'two days and half an hour' is a big improvement.

At that kind of threshold it would be almost completely restricted to "I installed it and it wouldn't work correctly", so I couldn't see that being abused much. Eh, let's just round it out at 1 hour?

 

[Nzyme32]

This analysis is pathetic for a service available less than a week. The data will skew significantly higher than what will later stabilise as with anything new as people experiment or take advantage of what they didn't have the ability to easily do before. On top of that, determining abuse cases will not be possible so early on.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Isn't an easy solution to give a limited number of refunds? Like 3 a year or something?

Seeing as how Steam has hundreds of complete turds on their store. No, I don't think this is the way to go.

I can totally see developers deliberately padding out the first two hours play to avoid people finishing and refunding. This policy, if it stands up as it currently is, will definitely negatively affect the shortest games available.

Then people will just return the games because they have too much padding. Problem solved.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Double post, damn.

 

[KarmaCow]

There wasn't one before. It was basically ask support to refund you, and if you're really lucky they'll help you out one time only.

Exactly. I have a category in my library called Garbage because of this (and bundle extras). Not worth the hassle.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Also the comparison to movies is extremely flawed. I don't buy a movie. I pay to see a movie. I don't then own said movie. And yes, usually I can return a DVD to a store.

Know why you usually can't return downloaded goods like music etc? Cause you can just make a copy of them, return it and still have that music. Know where you can't do that? On Steam.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Seriously bad for developers who:

- Are making cheap games that last less than two hours

Seriously good for game buyers who:
- Have had game-breaking bugs
- With underpowered PCs
- Have been mislead by false advertising
- Want to use it as a demo
- Are used to getting everything cheap or free forever but not enough to pirate for some reason

Fixed it for you, friend

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I just worry for the inevitable when a collective from 4chan or similar ilk find an indie dev whose ego they want to destroy by purchasing a game en masse, getting that dev's spirits up, then immediately all ask for refunds. Maybe that's just my natural inclination to find exploits speaking. But we do already see people bitter enough to buy a game just to leave slander and spiteful comments on their store page. Hopefully Valve will find a way to efficiently spot and remove abuse, but I'd be lying if I didn't say my faith in them wasn't close to null.

 

[Joseph Merrick]

I want to get a refund on MKX but somehow I put in 16 hours. Even though it runs like shit on my PC.

Try to get a refund anyway.

 

[ItsTheNew]

Don't really see a meaningful difference in this context. Especially since most of Puppy games stuff is arcade-like games you can probably beat in 2 hours as long as you only care about going through it once.

Well, they only offer about 15 minutes of actual gameplay so I can see why someone would want a $10 dollar refund for titan attacks .

 

[flaxknuckles]

I know I would have refunded Lego Batman 2 when it wouldn't start after I downloaded it (turns out I just needed to reboot lol). And then there's Burnout Paradise which wouldn't run because of a webcam driver. Hell, I think my 300+ game library would be chopped down quite a bit if refunds were available before. On the plus side for Steam this new policy means I'm more likely to buy games directly from them instead of key stores.

 

[Blizzard]

Also the comparison to movies is extremely flawed. I don't buy a movie. I pay to see a movie. I don't then own said movie. And yes, usually I can return a DVD to a store.

Know why you usually can't return downloaded goods like music etc? Cause you can just make a copy of them, return it and still have that music. Know where you can't do that? On Steam.

According to the Steam agreement, you don't own games either -- you're paying for a license to experience them as long as the service lasts.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Also the comparison to movies is extremely flawed. I don't buy a movie. I pay to see a movie. I don't then own said movie. And yes, usually I can return a DVD to a store.

Know why you usually can't return downloaded goods like music etc? Cause you can just make a copy of them, return it and still have that music. Know where you can't do that? On Steam.

What does this mean for the games that are DRM free on Steam? Couldn't you logically just copy the folder somewhere and then have the game removed?

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

If people have an internet connection to use Steam they should do their goddamn research before buying something, no excuses.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

This is a fantastic quote.
At that kind of threshold it would be almost completely restricted to "I installed it and it wouldn't work correctly", so I couldn't see that being abused much. Eh, let's just round it out at 1 hour?

Not all game breaking bugs are apparent 1 hour in?

There is nothing wrong with the refund policy. It's good for consumers. Yeah, devs may suffer because of it, but maybe that means they should test their game properly and well, if their game is short than maybe it will motivate them to make 'fuller' games with replay value?

Either way as I stand, it's good for Consumers. Developers for the longest time have been complacent with not having to deal with refunds or returns(Except in rare exceptions), so yeah it's a shock to devs who have to deal with this.

 

[Corpekata]

Surprised they didn't require Puppygames to go more in depth. They use a chart with highly relevant info that's been cut off (the sales figures). A drop in that chart is really bad if they were selling 100 copies a day. But given RoTT's history, it is likely a drop from 3 or 4 to 1 or 0. Still a bit sad for them, but the Steam sale is like 3 days away.

Furthermore, the Puppygames guy mixes up the formats of his refund figures, offering numbers for direct but percentages for Steam. If you want people to take this seriously, we need more concrete facts.

And of course this is ignoring the context that most of these devs are seeing a large spike from six months of purchases and is clearly going to go down.

 

[Lumination]

Too many shit developers get a pass because the games industry is one of the only consumer goods industries that do not do refunds. Hyping people up with an advertising campaign and running away with their pre-order money should be punished by mass refunds.

 

[Clockwork5]

And you thought there were too many FTP games on steam now...

 

[Omega]

You think Valve will ban a paying customer? Not a chance in hell.

Did I say ban? More like "the boy who cried wolf"

The one time someone wants to refund a game and has a legitimate reason other than "i don't care about +1's anymore, I want my money back" Valve will probably just ignore it because they'll see the users history and how they just abuse the refund system.

 

[Corpekata]

What does this mean for the games that are DRM free on Steam? Couldn't you logically just copy the folder somewhere and then have the game removed?

If you're planning on doing that, why wouldn't you just pirate it in the first place and ignore the hassle and possible threat to your refund rights?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

What does this mean for the games that are DRM free on Steam? Couldn't you logically just copy the folder somewhere and then have the game removed?

"DRM free" "on Steam"

Steam is DRM, so there are no DRM free games on Steam.
And yes you could do that. Or alternatively you pirate the game and have a much easier time.

And you know what, maybe refunds are a terrible thing.
But claiming this based on three freaking days of data is just insane. Wait a month at the very least before you start painting the devil on the wall.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Any retailer that does business has been doing this for years, it's something consumers demand. It does, of course, leave you open to outright dishonesty, but that's the cost of doing business. The problem I have with pc games is that you never really know how they'll run on your system. This is a great case for demos, as I imagine a lot of people will just want to know if their rigs can handle a game or not, and will use the return system like a demo.

Not to mention the potential for letting people get out of their comfort zone in purchases. It's much easier now to check out a game in a genre you're normally not into.

 

[R3TRO]

Happy they refunded me for Ark.

 

[Clockwork5]

Too many shit developers get a pass because the games industry is one of the only consumer goods industries that do not do refunds. Hyping people up with an advertising campaign and running away with their pre-order money should be punished by mass refunds.

Dummies should be punished for preordering garbage because they got "hyped up"

 

[Uhyve]

Overreactions aren't just for consumers, folks.

The really fun thing about that quote is that if you have a look at the community hub for Gratuitous Space Battles on Steam, 9 out of the top 15 threads are people having problems with the game. But no, it's the refund system that is the problem.

 

[Sendou]

"DRM free" "on Steam"

Steam is DRM, so there are no DRM free games on Steam.

Not all games require Steam to function though. That's not DRM.

 

[Blizzard]

"DRM free" "on Steam"

Steam is DRM, so there are no DRM free games on Steam.

Here's a potentially incomplete list of games on Steam that don't require Steam:

http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

 

[Timeaisis]

Valve continues to try and avoid providing customer service.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

If people have an internet connection to use Steam they should do their goddamn research before buying something, no excuses.

Maybe people shouldn't make bad games? But sadly they do, and you are right, consumers should try to make informed decisions but they don't, at least this way scumbag devs who develop shitty games don't stand to make money off of those uninformed consumers.

 

[toddhunter]

I can totally see developers deliberately padding out the first two hours of play to avoid people finishing and refunding. This policy, if it stands up as it currently is, will definitely negatively affect the shortest games available.

Nope, they already pad the first two hours so that reviewers and gamers all go "this is awesome" and flood the internet positively before playing the last crap 12 hours.

Otherwise known as the "Tomb Raider 2013 effect".

So refunds change nothing and it'll all sort itself out over time. If it means people are wary about releasing a bad product, which it will, then it is a good change.

 

[Maintenance]

"DRM free" "on Steam"

Steam is DRM, so there are no DRM free games on Steam.

Actually, there are a few games without DRM on Steam.

If people have an internet connection to use Steam they should do their goddamn research before buying something, no excuses.

My friend bought GTA V, couldn't play for about a week until the second patch, nothing he did made the game even start. While my other friends managed to play it without a problem.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if you can search.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Too many shit developers get a pass because the games industry is one of the only consumer goods industries that do not do refunds. Hyping people up with an advertising campaign and running away with their pre-order money should be punished by mass refunds.

Yup. I imagine if Unity came post-refund policy, you'd see ALOT of refunds for that game. Honestly before this, it was either contact Valve/Ubisoft and hope they give you a refund, otherwise suck it up and wait for the patches to fix everything out.

So if this has the added bonus that devs actually have to test their games and release complete games at launch...than I'm for it.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

If you're planning on doing that, why wouldn't you just pirate it in the first place and ignore the hassle and possible threat to your refund rights?

Fair point.

"DRM free" "on Steam"

Steam is DRM, so there are no DRM free games on Steam.

How often do we have to go through this? Steam is not DRM, Steam has DRM but Steam itself is not DRM.

http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games

 

[Hugstable]

Not all games require Steam to function though. That's not DRM.

I remember being able to play Deus Ex 1 still without steam logged in. Don't know if it's still like that or what was up then, but yeah I used to be able to play that without Steam logged in.