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[uncelestial]

I think an extreme example to explain what I mean would be to consider the guy who proposed the time cube, which was roundly mocked by many GAF members.

But for me, somewhere in the middle of reading that, I passed right through "lol look at this crazy person" straight through to "oh... he is really crazy. As in, he should probably seek professional help." That made the time cube a lot less funny, to me.

I feel that the woman in this thread is somewhere along the border between "Lol what an idiot" and "she should seek professional help." I don't enjoy making fun of mentally ill people.

That comparison would be more apropos if he accepted leadership positions in the scientific community based on his work with Time Cube Theory. Whatever dysphoria lead to her doing this, cynically taking money and prestige as part of the ruse (that should've gone to actual people of color) was not okay, and not the actions of a crazy person.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You don't need to conflate 2 entirely different things to generate empathy and garner support. It doesn't promote understanding, it promotes ignorance.

The derail into transgender comparisons is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen on GAF.

The *only* difference that you've brought so far is that one can be determined from childhood (and this is still not always the case, as far as I'm aware there is no firm medical opinion on the cause of, e.g., late on-set gender dysphoria), whereas the other might not be determined on such a fundamental biological level. That's not a relevant difference. I don't try my hardest to treat transgender people with the respect and decency they deserve because they were born that way, I do it because they're people. I'd do it even if they weren't born that way.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I just don't get how anyone can honestly believe transethnic/race can be a thing, or even draw comparisons to Transgender
People have mentioned transgender, limb dissociation, phantom limbs etc and stated this could be similar, and it just makes my mind hurt,
Medical studies using brain scans have shown differences in the brain for Transgender people, in essence it is in a way a mental illness, but only in the sense that the brain that has developed is in the wrong body, the person associates with a different gender.
Phantom pain in limbs, again brain scans have shown the brain areas that were there to decode signals from the nerves in the lost limb still fire, giving off a phantom pain, in a similar sense they have shown similar issues in limb disassociation, although in a different sense (on the same spectrum in a way).....

But to say that a person can be born the wrong race............No think about it, race and ethnicity is in relation to a few things, the evolutionary traits bases on area such as skin colour developed to protect against the suns affect in natural habitats (which is a redundant trait considering current human migration) ergo ethnicity and due to cultural and social differences (race), nothing associated with the brain and psyche.

To accept transethnic, is to suddenly decide that X, Y & Z races have different brains, something that would be shown in brain scans, and so far this is not the case, there is no determinable difference in the brain of a white person compared to a black person, if there were wouldn't all the racists of the world be jumping up and down to show how we are not all equal? something that decades of civil rights movements have fought to show that all humans are equal and no different
This seems like a racist version of positive discrimination, a positive racism if you will all in an effort to bend over backwards to accept trans ethnicity is a thing and not mental illness
If doctors do scans of this woman and prove that her brain is that of a black womans, well i'll eat my word, but until then i just cannot accept that she is transethnic/transrace/transblack, its quite obvious and quite sad that this woman obviously has a mental illness that needs addressing! just look at the social media posts, the fact she's trying to disassociate with her real parents in favour of a surrogate one to legitimise her new race, dodging questions on it etc etc etc

This thread is a perfect example of "if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out".

As rude as that can be taken it is a fair point on this, sometimes it is a mental illness and not some degree of 'Trans',k quite frankly i can understand why some transgender and people of colour in this thread are getting quite annoyed with the extreme liberals in this thread who are going out of their way to be open minded and accept this at the womans word!
If tomorrow i got into a (very realistic) rubber dinosaur suit, stopped talking, lived in the woods and hunted, would people think i'm mad? or transdinosaur?

 

[J10]

So this is white woman's body with a black brain inside it. Mmkay.

 

[DoktorEvil]

It's a sociological construct "informed" by some biological characteristics. So both.

Race is societal, ethnicity is biological. This lady is nuts.

Race is a social construct meant to seprerate biological physical differences between people who grew up in different regions of the world

Race as a means to say that X person in different compared to Y person in a mental capacity is a social construct. Race as a way too say "this person is black do to his skin color" is biology

So it's a little of both. That's what I recalled from both sociology class and from biology class, seeing as how both curriculums address this sentiment.

See, the waters get really muddled and confusing with stuff like:

That's her on the first picture?
She seems plenty white, was she claiming to be mixed race then? Im baffled.

Not to pick on the guy, but where does self-identity fall along on that spectrum?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Race is societal, ethnicity is biological. This lady is nuts.

Ethnicity's not biological either, fwiw. Race is a societal construct based (very) loosely on certain genetic characteristics which are biological, ethnicity is a societal construct of which the basis varies from ethnic group to ethnic group.

 

[Jarate]

That's her on the first picture?

She seems plenty white, was she claiming to be mixed race then? Im baffled.

She did claim she was mixed

Black persons in America have a wide range of different physical characteristics due to a large amount of reasons, but it'll be hard to find a 100% purely African person living in America (You can thank Thomas Jefferson for that) and many mixed persons identify as blacks because they have the same struggles as black persons do.

 

[methane47]

Then explain this.

Gender on the other hand is completely social construct. In that gender refers to how you act, how you feel, how you dress, etc

Transexual's don't actually change their sex. They technically change their gender and sometimes their genitals.

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

And On-Topic:
I don't agree with people giving this lady such a hard time. I do not think she was doing this to be insulting or to denigrate/offend anyone. Add me to the pack of people that thinks that this could be something similar to being trans.

Why can people not be trans ethnic? I know a few black friends who disassociate with anything to do with blackness.
- Look for example people from the dominican republic that are darker than Seal, but refuse to refer to themselves as black.
- Or for example i had a friend that was cuban, but REFUSED to be considered latino. He considered himself caucasian.
- Or i had a friend that had a caucasion dad but her mom was darker than Coolio, but she refused to consider herself as Black.
- Or for example a movie like "the Human stain"

We have a million instances of this in society but we've always considered it a form of self hate. Is it not possible that there could be some neurological reasoning for this as well? I mean up till a few decades ago people thought trans was a sickness or a disease or a possession by the devil. Now we believe differently...

Just saying.

What DOES upset me about this story is that she has most likely faked many of her 'black oppression' stories. It looks like she has taken some collection or amalgamation of what she feels is black and assigned them all to her life like she really experienced them. This action to me is disrespectful to the people that ACTUALLY go through those things.

 

[hipbabboom]

That's her on the first picture?

She seems plenty white, was she claiming to be mixed race then? Im baffled.

The dirty secret is that many African-Americans are mixed due to the prevalence of rape during slavery.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The *only* difference that you've brought so far is that one can be determined from childhood (and this is still not always the case, as far as I'm aware there is no firm medical opinion on the cause of, e.g., late on-set gender dysphoria), whereas the other might not be determined on such a fundamental biological level. That's not a relevant difference. I don't try my hardest to treat transgender people with the respect and decency they deserve because they were born that way, I do it because they're people. I'd do it even if they weren't born that way.

You are hurting trans people. Please please please stop.

 

[freeofgreed]

Race is societal, ethnicity is biological. This lady is nuts.

Thank you. Race is not biological at all, it's purely social.

 

[Black-Wind]

Because 1) she apparently hasn't actually done anything great with that power and 2) Ends don't justify the means.

I'm guessing she did something to warrant her getting that title. If not then ... that speaks more about the NAACP imo.

And what's her "means"? Seems like her "means" is just being happier with who she is and how people see her.

 

[Einchy]

What comic strip is that Einchy?

http://gunshowcomic.com/index.php

http://i.imgur.com/7w9earA.jpg

 

[Vicetrailia]

I really don't care what race she is trying to be. She's a pathological liar beyond epic proportions, and yet is a leader fighting the good fight. She is who she wants to be, but now outed she can truly be that without having to hide the biggest secret in the world. I think it's best they just move forward.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Thank you. Race is not biological at all, it's purely social.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

This is taught in biology class, often in tandem with genetics and DNA.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You are hurting trans people. Please please please stop.

Agreed.


Also

Rachel got a full ride from Howard

If pre-disguise, that is NOT how you use your HBCU education.

If post-disguise... I don't know where to start.


Either way, this rabbit hole ain't stopping anytime soon.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

You are hurting trans people. Please please please stop.

With the greatest respect, how?

 

[NumberTwo]

That's her on the first picture?

She seems plenty white, was she claiming to be mixed race then? Im baffled.

Black people are some of the most phenotypically diverse people on the planet. She could have been black.

There tends to be a bit of a narrow assumption on what black people can look like. Especially in western society.

 

[FStop7]

I read this last night and had a good chuckle before bed lol!

As a chocolate man, I ... don't really give a fuck. I see race as a social construct so if someone ones to fuck around with it then so be it. I take it that she's done great things for many people with her political power and her title in the NAACP so why should it matter?

This is life ... the world's full of whacky people. Someone appropriating a different social construct and being a whacky teacher doesn't much bother me.

I think everyone should care about it. 1. She lied. 2. She said a lot of denigrating things about black men and women all while carrying out her little farce. 3. She apparently staged multiple hate crimes for the sake of feeling good about her deception.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

And what's her "means"? Seems like her "means" is just being happier with who she is and how people see her.

How familiar are you with this story, though? I mean, you're already basically just guessing at key aspects of it.

I mean, in the abstract, maybe it sounds like it could be kosher. But she's drafting strangers to pose as her father, she's claiming her adopted brother as her son, she's apparently falsifying harrassment claims, so on and so forth.

So not only is she not benefiting the community through her position of influence, she's going out of her way to belittle it in multiple instances, and she's being *very* shady about it as well.

 

[methane47]

Even the label "race" is a social construct vs how it is used in science. There are biological/physical traits that "can" make someone part of a ethnic group (ex: darker skin/higher melanin count), but they are not necessary in all instances (ex: In the US, the "one drop rule" for black classification was used to specify that anyone with a trace of African blood was black. This rule has stuck more or less even now allowing everyone from Obama to Mariah Carey to classify themselves as black, even if they don't share physical characteristics).

Indeed! Point taken

 

[Wickerman]

talking about now

On Tuesday, Howell's dedication to the group was recognized at his swearing-in as the branch's first white president.

The Rev. David Walker, a former president of the Aiken chapter, said Howell is also the first white branch president in South Carolina history.

"Everybody feels comfortable with him even though he's the first white president," Walker said. "Our major goals are still to fight discrimination and injustice in any place for any color."

http://chronicle.augusta.com/news/aiken/2011-01-07/aiken-naacp-names-white-leader

 

[collige]

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

And On-Topic:
I don't agree with people giving this lady such a hard time. I do not think she was doing this to be insulting or to denigrate/offend anyone. Add me to the pack of people that thinks that this could be something similar to being trans.

Why can people not be trans ethnic? I know a few black friends who disassociate with anything to do with blackness.
- Look for example people from the dominican republic that are darker than Seal, but refuse to refer to themselves as black.
- Or for example i had a friend that was cuban, but REFUSED to be considered latino. He considered himself caucasian.
- Or i had a friend that had a caucasion dad but her mom was darker than Coolio, but she refused to consider herself as Black.
- Or for example a movie like "the Human stain"

We have a million instances of this in society but we've always considered it a form of self hate. Is it not possible that there could be some neurological reasoning for this as well? I mean up till a few decades ago people thought trans was a sickness or a disease or a possession by the devil. Now we believe differently...

Just saying.

What DOES upset me about this story is that she has most likely faked many of her 'black oppression' stories. It looks like she has taken some collection or amalgamation of what she feels is black and assigned them all to her life like she really experienced them. This action to me is disrespectful to the people that ACTUALLY go through those things.

My opinion on this is that transracialism (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't exist because races are entirely social constructs that don't exist in a real capacity. That same reason is why I don't have a problem with your friends' self-identifications. Calling yourself black or white or caucasian has no real effect on how you behave or how your social interactions go.

 

[Jarate]

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

And On-Topic:
I don't agree with people giving this lady such a hard time. I do not think she was doing this to be insulting or to denigrate/offend anyone. Add me to the pack of people that thinks that this could be something similar to being trans.

Why can people not be trans ethnic? I know a few black friends who disassociate with anything to do with blackness.
- Look for example people from the dominican republic that are darker than Seal, but refuse to refer to themselves as black.
- Or for example i had a friend that was cuban, but REFUSED to be considered latino. He considered himself caucasian.
- Or i had a friend that had a caucasion dad but her mom was darker than Coolio, but she refused to consider herself as Black.
- Or for example a movie like "the Human stain"

We have a million instances of this in society but we've always considered it a form of self hate. Is it not possible that there could be some neurological reasoning for this as well? I mean up till a few decades ago people thought trans was a sickness or a disease or a possession by the devil. Now we believe differently...

Just saying.

What DOES upset me about this story is that she has most likely faked many of her 'black oppression' stories. It looks like she has taken some collection or amalgamation of what she feels is black and assigned them all to her life like she really experienced them. This action to me is disrespectful to the people that ACTUALLY go through those things.

This is would be nice in a bubble, but please, say "well this could be the case and science has figured it out yet!" is not an argument.

If we have no evidence of these things, then that means we have no evidence. Sure we could all be ignorant, but we need evidence to back up our claims, not "well maybe evolution is fake because scientists change their mind sometimes"

And this is all ignoring the fact that there are basically literally 0 known mental differences between different races that aren't related to the culture they grew up in. Maybe that will change eventually, but unless you have evidence to back you up, you cant make those claims

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

Why can people not be trans ethnic? I know a few black friends who disassociate with anything to do with blackness.
- Look for example people from the dominican republic that are darker than Seal, but refuse to refer to themselves as black.
- Or for example i had a friend that was cuban, but REFUSED to be considered latino. He considered himself caucasian.
- Or i had a friend that had a caucasion dad but her mom was darker than Coolio, but she refused to consider herself as Black.
- Or for example a movie like "the Human stain"

We have a million instances of this in society but we've always considered it a form of self hate. Is it not possible that there could be some neurological reasoning for this as well? I mean up till a few decades ago people thought trans was a sickness or a disease or a possession by the devil. Now we believe differently...

Just saying.

What DOES upset me about this story is that she has most likely faked many of her 'black oppression' stories. It looks like she has taken some collection or amalgamation of what she feels is black and assigned them all to her life like she really experienced them. This action to me is disrespectful to the people that ACTUALLY go through those things.

But all that is a conscious choice by the individuals because they do not like the society they live in, the don't like cultural differences of their 'native' race, they are consciously choosing to not associate with things they do not like, which is completely different to Transgender people, they feel that they weren't born in the correct body and have felt wrong for years, they didn't just decide when they were mature enough "oh i don't like how men are in society i'm going to be a woman" (or vise versa)
Whilst yes i accept that there are similarities on a very basic level in that one person doesn't feel right, but thats as close as it gets

Let's review this once again for the scholars who conflate this issue with being transgendered:

Your gender is not inherently determined by your DNA. The color of your skin is. Your gender identity is formed and influenced by your sense of identity in a metaphysical sense. The difference here is you are going against the grain of society's social construct. You reject them. I'm feminine, for example, and I do not need society to tell me that I can't feel feminine because of my DNA/ biological construct.

Next, many people do play with social constructs and stereotypes to categorize themselves. So a white person can say they're black and they do so by drawing a straight line between themselves and a culture they normally identify with, rightly or wrongly, typically linked to that specific community (in this case, what they perceive to be a Black community). People can do this without deluding themselves and others about the reality of their DNA and biological makeup. They know their skin is not black. They know they cannot hold the weight of the traditions, heritage and history african americans carry with them, yet, they sympathize with their culture and want to be a part of it and use a social construct or label to do so is one way they do it.

This story goes further beyond that. This lady was lying about her DNA and biological makeup. Caitlyn Jenner did not lie about the sex, inherit in DNA, that she was born into. Dolezal's story went beyond the issue of identity. To put it plainly, what she did would have been no different than Caitlyn saying "I was born with a vagina.".

These are the differences. The easiest way to peel this argument is to simply ask what is and isn't inherited into a person's DNA and to understand what is or isn't linked to a social construct.

That is a far more eloquent way of putting the point i'm badly making

 

[Arkeband]

Black people are some of the most phenotypically diverse people on the planet. She could have been black.

There tends to be a bit of a narrow assumption on what black people look like. Especially in western society.

What.

I'm wondering if you've seen the picture or are just drive-by posting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

With the greatest respect, how?

By legitimizing horrific comparisons that are used to shame us and deny us rights. That are use to accuse us of being delusional.

So thank you for showing us so much "respect" as to give ammunition to those who would keep us from transitioning, who would sooner see us kill ourselves than allow us to pee in peace.

I'm literally begging you to stop.

 

[EdibleKnife]

With the greatest respect, how?

You're cutting out an enormous part of the struggle of trans-gendered people for the purposes of reducing it down to the level of this trans-racial business. If you feel that transraciality should be accepted, argue for it on its own merit rather than warping the reality of being trans-gendered to fit as a nice, easy comparison.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

How familiar are you with this story, though? I mean, you're already basically just guessing at key aspects of it.

I mean, in the abstract, maybe it sounds like it could be kosher. But she's drafting strangers to pose as her father, she's claiming her adopted brother as her son, she's apparently falsifying harrassment claims, so on and so forth.

So not only is she not benefiting the community through her position of influence, she's going out of her way to belittle it in multiple instances, and she's being *very* shady about it as well.

Plus, she taking up space from black women by outright mimicking them.

And to further add to this, fighting racism in blackface isn't just a cosmic irony; it's a straight up insult.

 

[KingK]

Every single time it has been brought up in any thread there has been this response. Im not trying to imply that you read everything or say you were wrong, but it's not like people havent been responding or the information isnt there.

Ignorance isn't a bad thing, but getting upset when people call out your ignorance is a bad thing

Well, I only learned today in this thread that there was a biological basis for being trans. I didn't even know "tranny" was a derogatory term until a year and a half ago. I've never met a trans person, nor do I even know anybody who has. This is probably the biggest area of "social justice" that I'm most ignorant about, and I prefaced pretty much every one of my posts by stating my ignorance and desire to be taught more.

I read the first page and a half of jokes, then read the two most recent pages (50ppp) of the thread before posting my fist time in this thread asking for the difference between this and transgender. It wasn't until 3 pages after my post (and keep in mind people had been arguing with Crab and a few others about this for several pages before I jumped in) that someone even mentioned a biological aspect. I don't think it was mentioned again for another 4 pages and has only in the last few pages become a more common response to people confused about this.

I'm just saying trans issues aren't something most people have experience with or extensive knowledge about so it would be nice if people would be a little more patient and try to explain things to ignorant people who genuinely want to learn instead of responding with, "No, you're wrong!" and leaving it at that. Though I understand it can sometimes be frustrating separating the genuinely curious from the willfully ignorant, as I have experience getting annoyed at people in police threads who are clearly just refusing to listen to any arguments and will remain willfully ignorant forever.

If there wasn't a biological component to feelings of a different gender identity, would it then be okay to dismiss/mock them? It's so complicated, I think that's a lazy way to escape difficult ethical questions regarding empathy for another person.

I personally question the authenticity of her transformation into a 'African-American' woman, but I'm also aware that I might be ethically wrong for doing so. It's just complicated.

I agree that it's still complicated, but even my initial reaction before I knew trans people had a biological reason for feeling so was that this woman was in the wrong while transgender was perfectly acceptable. I'd just been struggling to articulate why I feel that way. I think part of it is, even without knowing that transgender people have brains more similar to the opposite sex, I knew that there are biological differences in the brains of the sexes, and knew that there were no such differences between races. Maybe that's why it made more sense to me how somebody could "feel" like a different gender while someone "feeling" like a different race didn't really click, because it's not even clear what that would mean.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm feminine, for example, and I do not need society to tell me that I can't feel feminine because of my DNA/ biological construct.

As I understand it, transgender women do not claim to be feminine. They claim to be women. You can be a woman and still be masculine, because masculinity/femininity are how you express your gender and not what your gender is. Am I wrong about this?

 

[Kreed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

This is taught in biology class, often in tandem with genetics and DNA.

Click the link for "Race (human classification)" or "Race and society" above your link. Both explain what myself and other posters have been saying within the first few paragraphs.

 

[JDSN]

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

And On-Topic:
I don't agree with people giving this lady such a hard time. I do not think she was doing this to be insulting or to denigrate/offend anyone. Add me to the pack of people that thinks that this could be something similar to being trans.

Why can people not be trans ethnic? I know a few black friends who disassociate with anything to do with blackness.
- Look for example people from the dominican republic that are darker than Seal, but refuse to refer to themselves as black.
- Or for example i had a friend that was cuban, but REFUSED to be considered latino. He considered himself caucasian.
- Or i had a friend that had a caucasion dad but her mom was darker than Coolio, but she refused to consider herself as Black.
- Or for example a movie like "the Human stain"

We have a million instances of this in society but we've always considered it a form of self hate. Is it not possible that there could be some neurological reasoning for this as well? I mean up till a few decades ago people thought trans was a sickness or a disease or a possession by the devil. Now we believe differently...

Just saying.

What DOES upset me about this story is that she has most likely faked many of her 'black oppression' stories. It looks like she has taken some collection or amalgamation of what she feels is black and assigned them all to her life like she really experienced them. This action to me is disrespectful to the people that ACTUALLY go through those things.

Notice how your examples always steer for people striving to be white? There is a reason for that and that is why this is different. There is no such thing as trans ethnic.

 

[wildfire]

This race is or isn't partly or fully or never was biological is a mess I'll stay out of. It's a waste of time quibbling over it. All that matters is that because I look a certain way there is no chance I'll be considered white and it's dumb to say it is only a social identifier. Rachel Dolezal at times can convincingly pass off as black but she has the ethnic features that is accepted as white whenever she stops putting effort into looking black.

I don't understand what you mean.
Can you elaborate?

It's the same nonsense people say to prove trans-sexuality is a choice. That's why I was asking you to elaborate. Due to your confusion I'll just chalk this up to not realizing the scope of your statement and that wasn't your intention.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

With the greatest respect, how?

To take a page from your own book, this should be a bannable level of concern trolling.

You are defending the belittling of transgendered people and all the terrible things they deal with on a nigh-daily basis. And implying delusion.

 

[NumberTwo]

What.

I'm wondering if you've seen the picture or are just drive-by posting.

I'm wondering if you've seen the various photos of her. Yes, she could have passed for a black person in some of them. Also, I've been posting in this thread since its inception and participated in the discussion. I'm on the first page if you bothered to look.

We don't all look alike.

 

[wildfire]

The most moronic thing about race being only a social construct stance is that all these people are mocking Rachel Dolezal. You couldn't mock her if race didn't hinge on physical traits at all.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

By legitimizing horrific comparisons that are used to shame us and deny us rights. That are use to accuse us of being delusional.

So thank you for showing us so much "respect" as to give ammunition to those who would keep us from transitioning, who would sooner see us kill ourselves than allow us to pee in peace.

I'm literally begging you to stop.

I see. The point I have difficulty with is that you suppose this is a horrific comparison. It's only a horrific comparison if you suppose that the concept of people who would rather live in a body with different skin is horrific. I don't find that horrific, at all, and so I don't find that comparison horrific. Instead, I'd rather support both groups - I don't think the precise nature of why either group is what is, should be a considered factor when it comes to treating them decently.

I understand that some people find the second group horrific, and therefore can use the association to paint you as horrific. I obviously disagree with them completely and absolutely. I think they are wrong, and either ignorant, misguided, or just plain malicious.

I'd like to suppose that we can discuss this comparison without having to disrupt it because aspects of it can be abused. I have absolutely no wish to upset you or others or indirectly lead to harm, so if you think that it is unlikely arguments here will not be abused, I will not continue to post in this thread. I will accept PMs from people who wish to continue any discussion, on the grounds they are private and cannot possibly be abused by third parties.

I hope that's satisfactory.

 

[Jarate]

Well, I only learned today in this thread that there was a biological basis for being trans. I didn't even know "tranny" was a derogatory term until a year and a half ago. I've never met a trans person, nor do I even know anybody who has. This is probably the biggest area of "social justice" that I'm most ignorant about, and I prefaced pretty much every one of my posts by stating my ignorance and desire to be taught more.

I read the first page and a half of jokes, then read the two most recent pages (50ppp) of the thread before posting my fist time in this thread asking for the difference between this and transgender. It wasn't until 3 pages after my post (and keep in mind people had been arguing with Crab and a few others about this for several pages before I jumped in) that someone even mentioned a biological aspect. I don't think it was mentioned again for another 4 pages and has only in the last few pages become a more common response to people confused about this.

I'm just saying trans issues aren't something most people have experience with or extensive knowledge about so it would be nice if people would be a little more patient and try to explain things to ignorant people who genuinely want to learn instead of responding with, "No, you're wrong!" and leaving it at that. Though I understand it can sometimes be frustrating separating the genuinely curious from the willfully ignorant, as I have experience getting annoyed at people in police threads who are clearly just refusing to listen to any arguments and will remain willfully ignorant forever.


I agree that it's still complicated, but even my initial reaction before I knew trans people had a biological reason for feeling so was that this woman was in the wrong while transgender was perfectly acceptable. I'd just been struggling to articulate why I feel that way. I think part of it is, even without knowing that transgender people have brains more similar to the opposite sex, I knew that there are biological differences in the brains of the sexes, and knew that there were no such differences between races. Maybe that's why it made more sense to me how somebody could "feel" like a different gender while someone "feeling" like a different race didn't really click, because it's not even clear what that would mean.

Usually one of the best things to do if you are ignorant is to consider "Maybe what im posting could be offensive" if it is, then you should honestly ask nicely in the thread what the differences are, or use a google to search to figure it out. People are going to be upset for you conlfating the two, because it is very offensive to trans persons, and really all you needed to do was google this before possibly posting something ignorant and hurtful

I dont expect everyone to be knowledgeable on all subjects, but if I wanted to discuss something that I know might possibly offend someone, I should be ready with actual knowledge and evidence before the start of that discussion.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Even when she identifies as black she still enjoys the white privilege of everyone defending her stupid ass.

There it fucking is.

It's like a biological reflex. It's as if some people can't help it.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Click the link for "Race (human classification)" or "Race and society" above your link. Both explain what myself and other posters have been saying within the first few paragraphs.

Right, but posters are saying its purely one or the other and not acknowledging that both fields cover race, but from different perspectives.

Skin Color would cover the biological side.

 

[PSqueak]

we come in all shades, thank you very much.

But i mean, after reading the entire thread i see that A) she indeed claimed mixed (as seen in the form posted some time back) and B) when i read in the title "black face" my expectations of her claim skyrocketed, so it was baffling to me that her looks were being called "black face" rather than just stating "person lies about her heritage" (not to mention better picture posted later), i guess it was the Hyperbole from OP.

She did claim she was mixed

Black persons in America have a wide range of different physical characteristics due to a large amount of reasons, but it'll be hard to find a 100% purely African person living in America (You can thank Thomas Jefferson for that) and many mixed persons identify as blacks because they have the same struggles as black persons do.

The dirty secret is that many African-Americans are mixed due to the prevalence of rape during slavery.

This makes sense.

Black people are some of the most phenotypically diverse people on the planet. She could have been black.

There tends to be a bit of a narrow assumption on what black people can look like. Especially in western society.

Well, i think i worded my first post poorly because i focused too much on the "black face" part of the thread title, it gets a bit fizzy to me to judge who gets to be called black because, as a mexican, we're a country built on race mixing and with all the skin tone variety in here with no real labels (ie, there is no african mexicans, just mexicans for example) it gets hard to think about race in the terms american do, i firmly believe due to our history, that all mexican have native, african and spaniard blood in them and i sure know i do, yet im pale skinned and i wouldn't go appropiating black culture like this woman did even if, judging from these posts, i could argue that i'm black due to my heritage.

Im kinda rambling here, but i guess it's a testament to how crazy this news story is.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I see. The point I have difficulty with is that you suppose this is a horrific comparison. It's only a horrific comparison if you suppose that the concept of people who would rather live in a body with different skin is horrific. I don't find that horrific, at all, and so I don't find that comparison horrific. Instead, I'd rather support both groups.

I understand that some people find the second group horrific, and therefore can use the association to paint you as horrific. I obviously disagree with them completely and absolutely. I think they are wrong, and either ignorant, misguided, or just plain malicious.

I'd like to suppose that we can discuss this comparison without having to disrupt it because aspects of it can be abused. I have absolutely no wish to upset you or others or indirectly lead to harm, so if you think that it is unlikely arguments here will not be abused, I will not continue to post in this thread. I will accept PMs from people who wish to continue any discussion, on the grounds they are private and cannot possibly be abused by third parties.

I hope that's satisfactory.

Do whatever you want but full stop what you are arguing hurts trans people so yes I do think that is unlikely that what you are saying will not be abused.

 

[DECK'ARD]

With the greatest respect, how?

After equating the 2 you are now saying you think this woman is mentally ill.

Don't you see the danger, and how long it took the trans community to overcome that?

Transethnic is an impossibility, by comparing it to something that is not you undermine the latter. You are more concerned with appearing empathic in all cases than understanding and respecting those you are talking about.

 

[Red Comet]

This is a bizarre fucking story. I mean, if she was doing this exploitative purposes then that is obviously a big problem. But maybe she truly identifies with another race. I don't know if that makes it right or not, but maybe it does.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

After equating the 2 you are now saying you think this woman is mentally ill.

Don't you see the danger, and how long it took the trans community to overcome that?

Transethnic is an impossibility, by comparing it to something that is not you undermine the latter. You are more concerned with appearing empathic in all cases than understanding and respecting those you are talking about.

I'm responding by PM as per above. Hope that's okay.

 

[Jarate]

This is a bizarre fucking story. I mean, if she was doing this exploitative purposes then that is obviously a big problem. But maybe she truly identifies with another race. I don't know if that makes it right or not, but maybe it does.

No one in here is saying its bad to associate yourself with another culture

Would you want a weeaboo running an organization to further Japanese Persons in America cause under the false pretense that they were Japanese?

If somebody wanted to pretend they were black or white, or whatever, honestly, unless it's actively hurting them or others, I wouldnt really care, but then those people aren't trying to lead the NAACP, and using their fake history to further themselves.

 

[J10]

I see. The point I have difficulty with is that you suppose this is a horrific comparison. It's only a horrific comparison if you suppose that the concept of people who would rather live in a body with different skin is horrific. I don't find that horrific, at all, and so I don't find that comparison horrific. Instead, I'd rather support both groups - I don't think the precise nature of why either group is what is, should be a considered factor when it comes to treating them decently.

I understand that some people find the second group horrific, and therefore can use the association to paint you as horrific. I obviously disagree with them completely and absolutely. I think they are wrong, and either ignorant, misguided, or just plain malicious.

I'd like to suppose that we can discuss this comparison without having to disrupt it because aspects of it can be abused. I have absolutely no wish to upset you or others or indirectly lead to harm, so if you think that it is unlikely arguments here will not be abused, I will not continue to post in this thread. I will accept PMs from people who wish to continue any discussion, on the grounds they are private and cannot possibly be abused by third parties.

I hope that's satisfactory.

You can't think of any reason to find someone wanting to be a different skin color as horrific? Here's a hypothetical: Imagine if we lived in a world where people of a certain skin color were deemed by people of another skin color who wield great power as less than human and unworthy of respect and dignity. I know it's a stretch, but just try to imagine how those people might be made to feel so badly about themselves that they'd sometimes wish to be born a different color because they know life would be easier, that they'd rather not live in envy and terror of people of a different skin color. Do you think that scenario might be bad?

 

[Cabbagehead]

Can i be a trans vegetable?

 

[Arkeband]

I'm wondering if you've seen the various photos of her. Yes, she could have passed for a black person in some of them. Also, I've been posting in this thread since its inception and participated in the discussion. I'm on the first page if you bothered to look.

We don't all look alike.

I must have misunderstood your first post. I thought you were saying she could have passed for black in the 'before' photo.

I agree that the 'after' photos are very convincing. I probably wouldn't have even suspected it. No one did.