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[FordGTGuy]

But Mascot has a point though:




I'm all for speculating on rumours or leaked features but when he's stating things as fact, to go even as far as supporting it by saying no other game has it, it's a bit much imho. Again, there's no mention of hydroplaning ANYWHERE in that leak. There's a difference between saying that no other game has 3D puddles.... and no other game has 3D puddles that simulates hydroplaning.

I already said afterwards, it's based on speculation and educated guesses.

Also, like I've said before, I'm referring directly to the effects of aquaplaning in deep puddles; which I haven't seen in other sim circuit racers.

Look, I get excited some times when speculating about this stuff and go overboard. I never meant to state anything as a fact.

Apologies. I just thought it would be clear that it's simply forward rendering. There's no real case in-game for them using deferred for "many lights". It's rather straight forward (pardon the pun).

Furthermore, they did actually use MSAA in the game regardless of how ineffective it actually was due to the post-processing.

TBH, 60fps & traditional deferred is somewhat of a no-no in general due to bandwidth and fillrate requirements.

Ah, so it was just forward rendering, I thought for sure that it was deferred because I couldn't find anything on it anywhere.

Hopefully they've gone with forward plus, which I see highly likely after Horizon 2.

 

[AlStrong]

Ah, so it was just forward rendering, I thought for sure that it was deferred because I couldn't find anything on it anywhere.

Hopefully they've gone with forward plus, which I see highly likely after Horizon 2.

Just to be pedantic (sorry), FH2 is "clustered" forward. Forward+ is a bit different.

But yeah, I think it'll be interesting (for the next few days) how it'll turn out.

 

[adelante]

I already said afterwards, it's based on speculation and educated guesses.

Also, like I've said before, I'm referring directly to the effects of aquaplaning in deep puddles; which I haven't seen in other sim circuit racers.

Yes. You needed to clarify it afterwards. Your post earlier could've a more speculative tone. Anyone coming in here and seeing that post would've assumed Forza 6, and Forza 6 alone, is gonna feature hydroplaning on that level.

For what it's worth, I believe 3D puddles will work something along the lines of pools of water separating as tyres roll by, before forming back up again. A visual feature... would be interesting if it also has any gameplay implications.

 

[son of a Sven]

No other racing game..?

Which is the game that does?

PGR4 did it quite brilliantly. If there was a puddle before a turn, you'd plow into the wall guaranteed unless you slowed down enough to avoid hydroplaning, or swerve to miss the puddle

 

[FordGTGuy]

Just to be pedantic (sorry), FH2 is "clustered" forward. Forward+ is a bit different.

But yeah, I think it'll be interesting (for the next few days) how it'll turn out.

Really?

What was with them advertising forward plus rendering?

 

[Shin-Ra]

It's not just DX12.

Here is a comment I made recently on another forum about Forza 6's performance improvement and how it relates to things like DX12 on PCars.

• Forza 5 ran on a pre-launch SDK.
  
• 10% GPU reserve for Xbox One has been lifted.
  
• Many SDK updates that have probably created a 10% in performance increase by themselves if not more.
  
• DX12 is not a numbers game; Ian Bell made an educated guess that PCars might see a 7% performance improvement from DX12. To be clear PCars was never built with DX12 in mind and SMS does not have experience with DX12 or experience with the Xbox One like Turn 10 Studios does.
  
• Since Forza 6 was built with DX12 in mind since the beginning, it will have a larger performance increase than a game that is simply updated to add a little more performance. It will also take advantage of new DX12 features that a game not built for the API would be capable of doing.
  
• PCars is also a multi-platform title and this holds it back in many ways and directly comparing what a multiplatform game not even built with DX12 in mind to a game that is first party and in fact built with it in mind is not a proper way of determining a percentage of improvement available due to the API.
  
• Forza 6 is also most likely using forward plus rendering when Forza 5 used deferred rendering. This does a few great things; it makes dynamic global lighting much cheaper to run, it makes MSAA an extremely cheap option to increase image quality, and it leaves a smaller footprint for the ESRAM to have to handle.
  
• Forza 6 is the first true sequel to a next generation first party title. This means it can and will see significant efficiency improvements over its predecessor.
  
• Recently Microsoft has opened another entire CPU core for game developers.

Could be like a 40-50% performance boost then.

That's why the xbox community is so shit. People like Ford that are a real fans are ridicularized because he got mad with so much negative posts.

lol.

 

[Outrun]

Thanks a bunch

 

[AlStrong]

Really?

What was with this?

http://www.*****************/2014/0...-display-thousand-of-dynamic-lights-and-more/

mm........ I'm not sure what the banned site is, but DF did have an interview that explicitly mentioned Clustered.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-making-of-forza-horizon-2

John Longcroft-Neal: The Forward+ technique we use is probably better described as 'Clustered Forward+'. All Forward+ techniques revolve around splitting up the screen into a regular grid of sub-rectangles (typically 32x32 pixels), then finding out which lights potentially effect each sub-rectangle before you start rendering. During surface shading, you load up the reduced light list for that sub-rectangle and process only those lights. The goal is to avoid processing lights that have no effect on the surfaces in the sub-rectangle.

The standard Forward+ technique uses a depth texture of the scene to cull lights from the list. There are two issues with this approach; firstly you need to render the depth texture as a pre-pass before the main scene in order to create the light lists; secondly semi-transparent surfaces cannot render to the depth pre-pass.

Clustered Forward+ avoids the need for a depth pre-pass altogether by calculating light lists at multiple depths for each sub-rectangle and using the most appropriate cluster during surface shading. We generate the light cluster data all on the GPU using Compute shaders and this is done for any rendered view that requires lights.

The advantage of Forward+ for us is that it just works with MSAA, at any level, whereas deferred techniques struggle to maintain decent anti-aliasing. Secondly you get the other benefits of forward shading such as allowing complex material types such as carbon fibre and car paint that are difficult to achieve using deferred techniques. We found that we could easily 'plug-in' Forward+ to the existing shaders which were already designed for forward rendering. The advantages of the Clustered approach to Forward+ for us were that semi-transparent surfaces did not need special consideration and most importantly we did not need to render a depth pre-pass.

Basically, it avoids the second geometry pass that was the norm for light pre-pass.


Forward+ is essentially very "old" (Uncharted 1 was maybe the first publicized iteration), but the downside is the second geometry pass (CPU overhead).

 

[FordGTGuy]

Yes. You needed to clarify it afterwards.

I did.

It's called speculation and an educated guess.

and it was directly to Mascot.

mm........ I'm not sure what the banned site is, but DF did have an interview that explicitly mentioned Clustered.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-making-of-forza-horizon-2

Basically, it avoids the second geometry pass that was the norm for light pre-pass

Ah!

Ok cool!

Thanks for answering my question. ;^)

 

[Outrun]

PGR4 did it quite brilliantly. If there was a puddle before a turn, you'd plow into the wall guaranteed unless you slowed down enough to avoid hydroplaning, or swerve to miss the puddle

I think that Lotus Espirit Turbo rendered the effects of puddles the best.

Spoiler

J/K

 

[shinnn]

But Mascot has a point though:




I'm all for speculating on rumours or leaked features but when he's stating things as fact, to go even as far as supporting it by saying no other game has it, it's a bit much imho. Again, there's no mention of hydroplaning ANYWHERE in that leak. There's a difference between saying that no other game has 3D puddles.... and no other game has 3D puddles that simulates hydroplaning.

If you are not trying to ridicularize what he did said, no, there's nothing wrong with that. No one used "3D puddles" before. So its implicited that he is talking about how the game will simulate wet surfaces.

If you are a Forza fan (a real one), you should undestand what FordGT is trying to say, and should expect something unique from Turn10.

But who cares? in a community where Forza threads are moved by Xanadu and Mascot.

 

[AlStrong]

Ah!

Ok cool!

Thanks for answering my question. ;^)

Just trying to help.

edit9000:

Actually there was a GDC 2015 presentation on modern tiled renderers that might be of interest:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021764/Advanced-Visual-Effects-With-DirectX

 

[adelante]

I did.



and it was directly to Mascot.

Yep. The point was, you needed someone in here to actually tell you to do that. You would've left what you stated be assumed as fact and some gullible fool would've believed it. And as if I needed any more examples, you did the same by stating earlier that "Forza 5 used deferred rendering". Thank God for someone like AlStrong to correct you. Dude, you're pretty vocal supporter of Forza here. So it's good to have others "rein" you in. Carry on...

 

[FordGTGuy]

If you are not trying to ridicularize what he did said, no, there's nothing wrong with that. No one used "3D puddles" before. So its implicited that he is talking about how the game will simulate wet surfaces.

If you are a Forza fan (a real one), you should undestand what FordGT is trying to say, and should expect something unique from Turn10.

But who cares? in a community where Forza threads are moved by Xanadu and Mascot.

I had no idea why people would think that Turn 10 would do nothing more than have a visual effect of driving through puddles...

Yep. The point was, you needed someone in here to actually tell you to do that. You would've left what you stated be assumed as fact and some gullible fool would've believed it. And as if I needed any more examples, you did the same by stating earlier that "Forza 5 used deferred rendering". Thank God for someone like AlStrong to correct you. Dude, you're pretty vocal supporter of Forza here. So it's good to have others "rein" you in. Carry on...

Wow what kind of joke is this?

No one forced me to do so, I told him it was speculation right away when he said I was stating it as a fact.

These are the same guys speculating that Forza 6 is 900p, the leak from an official source has no bases in reality, and will only show a visual effect of driving through puddles?

I made a complete education guess on Forza 5's rendering engine as I've never been able to find a source on it before. It was either going to be deferred or forward rendering and deferred just seemed a higher possibility.

I guess from now on I'll have to leave a disclaimer on every post I make regarding a subject...

 

[adelante]

If you are not trying to ridicularize what he did said, no, there's nothing wrong with that. No one used "3D puddles" before. So its implicited that he is talking about how the game will simulate wet surfaces.

If you are a Forza fan (a real one), you should undestand what FordGT is trying to say, and should expect something unique from Turn10.

But who cares? in a community where Forza threads are moved by Xanadu and Mascot.

Yeah you probably need to be a real fan to know exactly what he's saying from context. But no matter what he's implying, it should be done with a more speculative tone.

 

[flashmouth]

Really?

What was with them advertising forward plus rendering?

I read the DF piece on FH2 you mentioned (good read btw) and they actually clarify it in there.

 

[adelante]

I had no idea why people would think that Turn 10 would do nothing more than have a visual effect of driving through puddles...



Wow what kind of joke is this?

No one forced me to do so, I told him it was speculation right away when he said I was stating it as a fact.

These are the same guys trying to say Forza is speculating Forza 6 is 900p and will only show a visual effect of driving through puddles?

No one indeed, but you were compelled to, no? It's the same thing with the rendering method claim. Except that AIStrong actually provided evidence to counter your "facts".

I guess from now on I'll have to leave a disclaimer on every post I make regarding a subject...

I agree. In case you were being sarcastic, it's not a bad thing to preface your list of stuff like so:

It's not just DX12.

Here is a comment I made recently on another forum about Forza 6's performance improvement and how it relates to things like DX12 on PCars. Note: Some of this may not be accurate

• Forza 5 ran on a pre-launch SDK.
  
• 10% GPU reserve for Xbox One has been lifted.
  
• Many SDK updates that have probably created a 10% in performance increase by themselves if not more.
  
• DX12 is not a numbers game; Ian Bell made an educated guess that PCars might see a 7% performance improvement from DX12. To be clear PCars was never built with DX12 in mind and SMS does not have experience with DX12 or experience with the Xbox One like Turn 10 Studios does.
  
• Since Forza 6 was built with DX12 in mind since the beginning, it will have a larger performance increase than a game that is simply updated to add a little more performance. It will also take advantage of new DX12 features that a game not built for the API would be capable of doing.
  
• PCars is also a multi-platform title and this holds it back in many ways and directly comparing what a multiplatform game not even built with DX12 in mind to a game that is first party and in fact built with it in mind is not a proper way of determining a percentage of improvement available due to the API.
  
• Forza 6 is also most likely using forward plus rendering when Forza 5 used deferred rendering. This does a few great things; it makes dynamic global lighting much cheaper to run, it makes MSAA an extremely cheap option to increase image quality, and it leaves a smaller footprint for the ESRAM to have to handle.
  
• Forza 6 is the first true sequel to a next generation first party title. This means it can and will see significant efficiency improvements over its predecessor.
  
• Recently Microsoft has opened another entire CPU core for game developers.

 

[shinnn]

Yeah you probably need to be a real fan to know exactly what he's saying from context. But no matter what he's implying, it should be done with a more speculative tone.

Or people should just move on, just like they do with "negative" posts with wrong information or speculative. But I don`t know why only the "positive" gets attention.

 

[AlStrong]

I read the DF piece on FH2 you mentioned (good read btw) and they actually clarify it in there.

Hopefully they are open to another interview! The interview with FH1 was pretty good too.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Yeah you probably need to be a real fan to know exactly what he's saying from context. But no matter what he's implying, it should be done with a more speculative tone.

Let's go over this step by step, seeing as you want to jump into a conversation like this.

Post that started this:

When in my youth when I was racing in Karts I knew driving into wet spots was pretty dangerous. But Forza has never been a good sim in my eyes, so Forza 6 will probably suck anyway.

Pretty slimy post to be honest

This has to be a joke right? right?

Do you know that no other racing game on any system is simulating 3D puddles in a circuit racing environment with hydroplaning?

To be clear I never stated that Forza 6 is simulating it as a fact, I asked him if he knew that no other games simulated hydroplaning in 3D puddles in a circuit racing environment.

As much as PGR4 or PCars is brought up, to clarify I'm talking about realistically simulating the physics involved on the affects of hydroplaning on a car that drives into puddles(not sheets of water but puddles).

No other racing game..?

Which is the game that does?

In which Mascot asked why I said this.

Forza 6?

You can argue this one all day but Dan said he didn't want weather in FM until he could do things like hydoplaning. It's pretty clear that if 3D puddles is a standout feature it is going to have major implications to the games physics engine.

I said Forza 6 but I immediately stated that it was based on a comment from Dan that he didn't want weather in FM until he could do things like hydroplaning and that it seems to connect well with the 3D puddles leak.

Hydroplaning? You're assuming an awful lot from some badly-translated 'leak'. It's not fact until they tell us it is.

To which he clearly said I was ASSUMING, not stating FACTS but assuming an awful lot from what I said in my previous comment.

It's called speculation and an educated guess.

You make it sound as if hydroplaning is somehow a huge reach.

I then stated clearly that it was speculation and an educated guess.

Can we stop this now?

 

[Synth]

Or people should just move on, just like they do with "negative" posts with wrong information or speculative. But I don`t know why only the "positive" gets attention.

To be fair, I'm usually all over negative posts with wrong information. I'm pretty sure I'm seen as an "Xbox fanboy" by most here as a result of how frequently it happens.

We should definitely move on though. I think everybody here gets the point now.

 

[adelante]

Or people should just move on, just like they do with "negative" posts with wrong information or speculative. But I don`t know why only the "positive" gets attention.

I don't know either man. Nature of internet forum discussions I guess. But that's what make talking about games like Forza exciting, each new interation bring with it both gameplay AND graphical improvements. And as a huge fan of how graphics evolve with each generation of consoles/games, I'm actually very interested to see if the 3D puddles work exactly like what I imagine it to be: pools of water that are interactive.

 

[AlStrong]

We should definitely move on though. I think everybody here gets the point now.

The code never bothered me anyway.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I don't know either man. Nature of internet forum discussions I guess. But that's what make talking about games like Forza exciting, each new interation bring with it both gameplay AND graphical improvements. And as a huge fan of how graphics evolve with each generation of consoles/games, I'm actually very interested to see if the 3D puddles work exactly like what I imagine it to be: pools of water that are interactive.

Wow, you know I liked speculating about it too until a bunch of posters dog piled me about it...

 

[adelante]

stuff

Yeah...Maybe your post could've been clearer had you worded it exactly like you just did:

Do you know that no other racing game on any system is simulating hydroplaning with 3D puddles.?

Emphasis on 3D puddles because clearly, that's what you were specifying. But alright, let's stop.

Wow, you know I liked speculating about it too until a bunch of posters dog piled me about it...

Take the good with the bad I say... always been my take with regards to partaking in internet discussions. There's always gonna be people dogpiling on you what with you being so vocal about things. And for what it's worth, I'm glad that there's somebody representing Forza like you do.

 

[flashmouth]

Where can I find the interview with Dan talking about weather in FM and hydroplaning?

Everybody go and read the DF interview with Playground and then we meet again speculating if Turn 10 can do 1080/60 with dynamic weather and 3d puddles on closed circuit tracks with clustered forward+ rendering.

 

[etta]

When in my youth when I was racing in Karts I knew driving into wet spots was pretty dangerous. But Forza has never been a good sim in my eyes, so Forza 6 will probably suck anyway.

Went to sleep last reading about everyone getting a pin on their avatar and getting excited for the demo reveal in two days, and woke up to this. Sigh.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

This situation with hydroplanning is totally puddling me.

Spoiler

I'm sorry. I'll kick myself out.

 

[SillySinStorm]

Day-chuffing-one!!! Been with the series since FM1 and am ready to receive the juicy goodness.

 

[eso76]

Speculating is fun, but there's less than 48 hours to go now anyway.

Anyway, my guesses:
Won't look terribly different from FM5 (still good, considering night and rain and 24 cars vs 16)
Better IQ though.
3d puddles means puddles you can glide over or sink in, depending on speed
Not expecting dynamic TOD or weather tbh. Or maybe dynamic weather, but not TOD.
Rio is the new crown jewel track

All i got

 

[FordGTGuy]

Speculating is fun, but there's less than 48 hours to go now anyway.

Anyway, my guesses:
Won't look terribly different from FM5 (still good, considering night and rain and 24 cars vs 16)
Better IQ though.
3d puddles means puddles you can glide over or sink in, depending on speed
Not expecting dynamic TOD or weather tbh. Or maybe dynamic weather, but not TOD.
Rio is the new crown jewel track

All i got

Honestly Forza 5 looks great it just suffers from the IQ.

 

[etta]

Speculating is fun, but there's less than 48 hours to go now anyway.

Anyway, my guesses:
Won't look terribly different from FM5 (still good, considering night and rain and 24 cars vs 16)
Better IQ though.
3d puddles means puddles you can glide over or sink in, depending on speed
Not expecting dynamic TOD or weather tbh. Or maybe dynamic weather, but not TOD.
Rio is the new crown jewel track

All i got

I agree with non-dynamic TOD, but I think dynamic weather will be in. But I think graphically, the jump will be similar to FM2 -> FM3, which was huge. Like FordGTGuy mentioned, FM5 was built on pre-launch SDK, and not only has the SDK improved significantly since then, there was also that Kinect resources drop, and extra core was unlocked, and FM6 was built using DX12 so it takes advantage of certain DX12 features that improve efficiency of the code, allowing for more headroom for visual improvements.
I think it will use the day and weather system from FH2, and I am hoping for at least 2XMSAA or equivalent image quality wise.
As for the 3D puddles, I see people mentioning it might be one of two things:
Hydroplanning or just a 3D puddle that reacts visually to the tyre. But the people arguing the latter overlook one thing. If the 3D puddles were just a visual thing, I don't thing the team would even mention it because their default cameraview when marketing the game is the cockpit camera, which means you won't see the car react to the 3D, visual-only puddle.
I think they mentioned 3D puddle because, regardless of your camera view, you will notice it when you hit the puddle, meaning there is some physics involved, ie. hydroplanning.

 

[indosmoke]

Speculating is fun, but there's less than 48 hours to go now anyway.

Anyway, my guesses:
Won't look terribly different from FM5 (still good, considering night and rain and 24 cars vs 16)
Better IQ though.
3d puddles means puddles you can glide over or sink in, depending on speed
Not expecting dynamic TOD or weather tbh. Or maybe dynamic weather, but not TOD.
Rio is the new crown jewel track

All i got

I somehow expect T10 to work their magic -again- and come with something even better looking than FM5 + cleaner IQ.
That said, I'm ok with it if it's the best they can come up with, considering the challenges with the rumored/leaked new features. At the end of the day, I'm way more excited to try the substantially improved handling and physics. The jumps from FM3 to 4 and 5 were subtle but so satisfying...

I couldn't care les about dynamic weather and ToD, unless of course it's properly implemented in the career (endurance?).

 

[Kreator]

He forgets you can't always say what you feel, from time to time.


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=166743472&postcount=703

He sure is passionate.

 

[TheAdmiester]

He sure is passionate.

What he said was completely fine IMO. Shitty thing to get banned for.

 

[watership]

wrong thread. oops.

 

[Shortt Sirket]

Hey guys, what's going on in...

 

[Terbinator]

What he said was completely fine IMO. Shitty thing to get banned for.

Backseat modding is a no-go, though. That's what the report button is for.

 

[Stevey]

Backseat modding is a no-go, though. That's what the report button is for.

Where's the report button?
Never seen it.

 

[Terbinator]

Where's the report button?
Never seen it.

Well, metaphorically. Easy enough to PM a mod.

 

[shinnn]

What he said was completely fine IMO. Shitty thing to get banned for.

When a mod get a bunch of MPs calling to a ban. Thats what happens.

He sure is passionate.

Do you know if calling an multiaccount user without proof on gaf is bannable?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Alright guys, let's not get meta and try to keep on track with Forza 6 and rumors.

These conversations are best left in other places and PMs, we don't want to get the thread locked.

 

[Uncle Ernie]

But who cares? in a community where Forza threads are moved by Xanadu and Mascot.

Don't compare Mascot with that old sod Xanadu me old mucker. Utter piss move.

 

[soundscream]

Don't compare Mascot with that old sod Xanadu me old mucker. Utter piss move.

Well they were kinda tag teamiing the Forza thread right before 5. Xanadu was a troll through and through, but when Mascot went on his little tirade he took whover was willing to hitch onto his wagon.

 

[Hawk269]

Well Forza 6 being one of the first triple "A" games that is a sequel to a launch game I am expecting a good jump visually. Going from 16 to 24 cars alone is huge improvement while still being 1080/60fps.

 

[Kreator]

Do you know if calling an multiaccount user without proof on gaf is bannable?

I think it is yes, don't want to be a naughty boy now do we?

 

[Liquidsnake]

For people just joining the thread, I'm still offering pins for avatars!

Taking care of everyone !!!!!

 

[Steverulez]

I would suggest calming down. Personal attacks won't be tolerated. Arguing over speculation is pointless, so it's not really worth getting banned during e3 for it.


Need I go on?

Its just the hype m0dus, they can't contain themselves, two days!

Spoiler

My thread is going to be replaced in two days, you lot better not get my hand crafted thread locked before hand!!

 

[FordGTGuy]

So what other tracks do you think are a possibility to make the cut?

I feel as if we will get at least one large track returning, Fujimi Kaido?

Do you think they will rebuild the track using laser scanning?

I know I heard rumblings about Monza.

 

[Kreator]

So what other tracks do you think are a possibility to make the cut?

I feel as if we will get at least one large track returning, Fujimi Kaido?

Do you think they will rebuild the track using laser scanning?

I know I heard rumblings about Monza.

Maple Valley has to come back. I also hope we see the Tokyo track return as we again have night, as well as Pacific shipyards.

And isn't Kaido fictional?