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[marrec]

That there's a reason that "men shouldn't hit women" is a thing. I think I made that pretty clear.

Alright, but going by that logic it should be clear that "Bigger men shouldn't hit smaller men" and "small dudes can hit women sometimes" and "big girls can hit all dudes I guess?".

It's too complicated. How about "don't hit people" and that goes for everyone include drunk college girls?

 

[KHarvey16]

What law?

Laws defining acceptable use of force for self defense.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

All that macho shit needs to get checked at the door, for real. "Shouldn't hit women" should really just be shouldn't hit anyone. If you're gonna hit someone do it right, make it mutual.

If you take a swing at someone not expecting it, you're a shithead, and that's pretty much it - regardless.

 

[marrec]

All that macho shit needs to get checked at the door, for real. "Shouldn't hit women" should really just be shouldn't hit anyone. If you're gonna hit someone do it right, make it mutual.

If you take a swing at someone not expecting it, you're a shithead, and that's pretty much it - regardless.

Yep. In this specific case she hit him in the face and he hit her back. He didn't moderate his punch based on her physical strength just like he wouldn't for any of you puny dweebs.

He should have walked away, but she shouldn't have HIT HIM IN THE FACE

 

[THRILLH0]

Alright, but going by that logic it should be clear that "Bigger men shouldn't hit smaller men" and "small dudes can hit women sometimes" and "big girls can hit all dudes I guess?".

It's too complicated. How about "don't hit people" and that goes for everyone include drunk college girls?

I completely agree with that and I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread does too.

 

[entremet]

Look at this study:

Another study published in 1999 similarly found women had 40 percent less upper body skeletal muscle [source: Janssen]. Even controlling for athletic aptitude doesn't tip the upper body strength scales in favor of the female; an experiment comparing the hand grip strength of non-athletic male participants versus elite women athletes still revealed a muscle power disparity in favor of the menfolk

http://health.howstuffworks.com/wel...training/men-vs-women-upper-body-strength.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303

So even trained women still show big strength disparities compared to non-trained males.

 

[suberzat]

Even so, pro fighting has rules. It's not slugfest. Also there is reason for stuff like weight classes.

The QB here had a good foot on the girl. And probably 80 pounds on her too.

Dude is 6'0 180 just stop it dude

Chick seem like she was at least 5'7

 

[BronzeWolf]

Laws defining acceptable use of force for self defense.

What's the usual threshold though?

If someone punches you, you punch back right? Up to what point?

 

[AkuMifune]

Alright, but going by that logic it should be clear that "Bigger men shouldn't hit smaller men" and "small dudes can hit women sometimes" and "big girls can hit all dudes I guess?".

It's too complicated. How about "don't hit people" and that goes for everyone include drunk college girls?

Now that the sexes are equal we should just all be separated into weight classes.

The 'pick on someone your own size' law.

Of course, she probably is in his weight class so I lose my original argument again.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Look at this study:



http://health.howstuffworks.com/wel...training/men-vs-women-upper-body-strength.htm

Doesn't matter if they're stronger, all that matter is that they're strong.

 

[Shuggananas]

What's the usual threshold though?

If someone punches you, you punch back right? Up to what point?

+-20% is acceptable

 

[marrec]

Now that the sexes are equal we should just all be separated into weight classes.

The 'pick on someone your own size' law.

To do so we need to have a worldwide fighting tournament.

 

[gai_shain]

Look at this study:



http://health.howstuffworks.com/wel...training/men-vs-women-upper-body-strength.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303

So even trained women still show big strength disparities compared to non-trained males.

Now if only fighting was only about physical strength

 

[BronzeWolf]

Look at this study:



http://health.howstuffworks.com/wel...training/men-vs-women-upper-body-strength.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303

So even trained women still show big strength disparities compared to non-trained males.

They are comparing hand grip. Is hand grip an objective measurement of "how hard can they punch?" Is there a part in that article where they talk about the Newtons of a punch between a non-athletic male and an athletic female? I would take that much more seriously than "hand grip"

There are many ways to inflict harm. Most of them don't take into account how heavy you can lift, or how hard you can grip something. Many of them don't involve punching at all!

 

[Deleted member 47027]

What's the usual threshold though?

If someone punches you, you punch back right? Up to what point?

If it doesn't hurt, you don't hit back. That's the "rule" I was pretty much taught back in the day. If they can't hurt you, toy with them and push em around, but don't crack em if they can't hurt you. The more you humiliate someone by showing them they're powerless though, the angrier they get and it's pretty gross.

 

[Angel_DvA]

Still not as brutal as :

To be honest, she punched him in the face first, would have probably done the same if I were him.

 

[KHarvey16]

What's the usual threshold though?

If someone punches you, you punch back right? Up to what point?

The law states a person can use force reasonably believed necessary to defend one's self from imminent use of unlawful force.

 

[entremet]

Now if only fighting was only about physical strength

They are comparing hand grip. Is hand grip an objective measurement of "how hard can they punch?" Is there a part in that article where they talk about the Newtons of a punch between a non-athletic male and an athletic female? I would take that much more seriously than "hand grip"

There are many ways to inflict harm. Most of them don't take into account how heavy you can lift, or how hard you can grip something. Many of them don't involve punching at all!

No just grip strength.

FSU doesn't pay their players that well.

lol

 

[Morrigan Stark]

11 pages for what's pretty much a bar fight? Meh. Had it been with two dudes, it would have been a non-story.

I also hold a special hatred for women who rely on sexist social norms to get away with unprovoked violence, and for the people who defend them. Because I actually do want both sexes to be held to the same standard.

Bingo.

Just switch the situation. If it had been the guy trying to keep her from getting to the bar, and had been the guy who raised his fist.

The woman attempts to restrain his raised fist. The man takes an impotent punch at her, barely grazing. She then lands a square punch on him, and walks away.


I have a feeling the reactions would be incredibly different. In my opinion he would be laughed at, and implied to be less of a man, and she would be regarded as a strong female role model.

You're not wrong. :\ It's ridiculous how this is twisted into some sort of "violence against women" situation. Unless the video is misleading and there's evidence that it didn't go quite in the way it looks, but based on the info so far, she was clearly the aggressor and I have no sympathy for her. So he might have hit a bit hard and she got a black eye. So what? He didn't pummel her, he just clocked her once and she was just staggered enough for the altercation to end. Hardly "disproportionate".

 

[gai_shain]

No just grip strength.

so the person with the highest grip strength is the best fighter in the world in your opinion?

 

[BronzeWolf]

The law states a person can use force reasonably believed necessary to defend one's self from imminent use of unlawful force.

Do you doubt there was a lack of imminence in the use of force against the guy in this situation? A punch to his face seemed pretty imminent to me.

 

[Vagabundo]

I know a champion kickboxer who comes from a family of drunks and lunatics, and knocks out guys in pubs all the time. She doesn't look like much but she can hit like a mule and she's a fucking loon too.

Anyway, just an aside to this random pub brawl thread.

He also ended his football career. Effectively.

If he was some random college dude who wouldn't mind spending the night in jail, whatever. But this kids dream and all of his hard work died with that punch.

True enough. Its a shame, but maybe he'll go on to live a long and happy life anyway without the early alzheimer's.

 

[entremet]

so the person with the highest grip strength is the best fighter in the world in your opinion?

No, but I'm just showing that there are objective measures for strength between male and females. And strength does help in a fight. You'd be silly to think it does not.

Also, why are taking about fighters here?

This is a bar altercation, not the octagon.

 

[KHarvey16]

Do you doubt there was a lack of imminence in the use of force against the guy in this situation? A punch to his face seemed pretty imminent to me.

What happened in the past is only useful in judging the level of threat a person represents. He can reasonably believe she would want to hit him again, but it's not reasonable to use the amount of force he did and suggest it was the least necessary to prevent her hitting him.

 

[BronzeWolf]

No, but I'm just showing that there are objective measures for strength between male and females..

Who was arguing the contrary???? You just made a strawman and attacked it. Yes, men are stronger than women. Yes, there are other ways to damage people besides pure strength.

So, what's your point?

This is a bar altercation, not the octagon.

So there is no point in bringing that article? OK

What happened in the past is only useful in judging the level of threat a person represents. He can reasonably believe she would want to hit him again, but it's not reasonable to use the amount of force he did and suggest it was the least necessary to prevent her hitting him.

Which is why I agree he should be guilty of assault and battery, but I think on the least degree.

 

[gai_shain]

No, but I'm just showing that there are objective measures for strength between male and females. And strength does help in a fight. You'd be silly to think it does not.

I dont think it doesnt, im saying that a physically weaker person can win a fight

 

[marrec]

No, but I'm just showing that there are objective measures for strength between male and females. And strength does help in a fight. You'd be silly to think it does not.

Also, why are taking about fighters here?

This is a bar altercation, not the octagon.

I guess, the point is, that there are no scientific studies that show a chubby college girl can't break a QBs nose if she gets a decent shot on him.

 

[suberzat]

Who was arguing the contrary???? You just made a strawman and attacked it. Yes, men are stronger than women. Yes, there are other ways to damage people besides pure strength.

So, what's your point?



So there is no point in bringing that article? OK

Dude just talking

 

[old manatee]

Bunch of white knights in here that never got beat up by a woman before.

 

[entremet]

Who was arguing the contrary???? You just made a strawman and attacked it. Yes, men are stronger than women. Yes, there are other ways to damage people besides pure strength.

So, what's your point?

I think the tenor of argument in the thread is about ideals.

But we don't live in an ideal world. This QB probably cost is college athletic career because he wanted to get even.

Reality versus the ideal are two different things.

You could argue whether he was justified or not. But goodbye football career.

 

[KHarvey16]

Which is why I agree he should be guilty of assault and battery, but I think on the least degree.

Then on that point we're not really in disagreement!

 

[Yaboosh]

I think the tenor of argument in the thread is about ideals.

But we don't live in an ideal world. This QB probably cost is college athletic career because he wanted to get even.

Reality versus the ideal are two different things.

The more people argue about this the more likely he will be Auburn's qb in 2017.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

So, it kind of looks to me like the girl was behaving stupidly and started hitting at a guy that was clearly not the right person to pick a fight with. She put him in a difficult situation that made it hard for him to make the right decision. She's a shitty person for it. You don't hit people.

But, regardless of how hard it was to make the right decision, you don't get a free pass for making the wrong one. Dude should have walked away. You don't hit people.

 

[entremet]

The more people argue about this the more likely he will be Auburn's qb in 2017.

You think that, though? With the way social media lynching happen these days? It seems like a PR nightmare.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

They were both probably drunk. He got punches and instinctively reacted, that's about it.

 

[Vagabundo]

What happened in the past is only useful in judging the level of threat a person represents. He can reasonably believe she would want to hit him again, but it's not reasonable to use the amount of force he did and suggest it was the least necessary to prevent her hitting him.

Sure it is. It was one punch in responses to several violent attacks from her. I'd be surprised if the prosecutor doesn't drop the case here.

 

[entremet]

Who was arguing the contrary???? You just made a strawman and attacked it. Yes, men are stronger than women. Yes, there are other ways to damage people besides pure strength.

So, what's your point?



So there is no point in bringing that article? OK




Which is why I agree he should be guilty of assault and battery, but I think on the least degree.

Well fighting skill is something that we can't reliably have objective measures for outside of pros, which these two are not. Conducting that kind of study would be laborious and expensive.

However, we do have objective measures isolated for strength. And males have the advantage in that area.

Color that with societal viewpoint that men should not hit women and you will have hard time justifying the kid's actions.

Philosophically and legally we can argue that he was justified, but we don't live in a pure philosophical world. There are inherent biases and social mores that are prevelant and influence our decisions. It did for FSU.

 

[KHarvey16]

Sure it is. It was one punch in responses to several violent attacks from her. I'd be surprised if the prosecutor doesn't drop the case here.

The accumulation of attacks don't justify a more violent response. There isn't a meter that fills up with each of her attacks and then he gets to spend it by hitting her. He can only use the least amount of force necessary to prevent an unlawful use of force. By that definition he used far too much.

 

[MrToughPants]

If it doesn't hurt, you don't hit back. That's the "rule" I was pretty much taught back in the day. If they can't hurt you, toy with them and push em around, but don't crack em if they can't hurt you. The more you humiliate someone by showing them they're powerless though, the angrier they get and it's pretty gross.

But it hurts their weak ego. Gotta save face and look alpha by hitting a woman back.

 

[dave is ok]

Sure it is. It was one punch in responses to several violent attacks from her. I'd be surprised if the prosecutor doesn't drop the case here.

He inflicted damage on her while suffering none from her. The law doesn't really care what might have happened in some alternate universe where she was Rhonda Roussey, it only cares about what actually happened.

 

[marrec]

But it hurts their weak ego. Gotta save face and look alpha by hitting a woman back.

Don't make it about that, that's a disgusting mentality to have. I doubt at the moment he was worried about 'looking alpha'. Get over your own inadequacies and try to have some empathy toward both parties, not just one.

 

[suberzat]

I think the tenor of argument in the thread is about ideals.

But we don't live in an ideal world. This QB probably cost is college athletic career because he wanted to get even.

Reality versus the ideal are two different things.

You could argue whether he was justified or not. But goodbye football career.

So if she was ban from going to any college/university in the state of Florida. Would that be even?

 

[Althane]

He inflicted damage on her while suffering none from her. The law doesn't really care what might have happened in some alternate universe where she was Rhonda Roussey, it only cares about what actually happened.

If she kicked him in the 'nads, I'm prettttty sure the law would care about that.

Permanent damage or no, that is at minimum a mitigating factor. Depending on how the lawyers spin it, the jury might agree.

 

[gai_shain]

He inflicted damage on her while suffering none from her. The law doesn't really care what might have happened in some alternate universe where she was Rhonda Roussey, it only cares about what actually happened.

yeah no thats not how it works, threats or being threatened are a thing if you believe it or not. You can only start defending yourself when there was physical harm done to you and not before that point?

 

[Draft]

Online is the only place where this debate could exist. Whether or not it's OK to punch a woman right in her goddamn face if she sort of throws a flabby, loosely balled hand in the general direction of your shoulder. I'm trying to imagine making the pro argument face to face with another human being and it's just not coming to me.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

What if it was a guy her size?

I'm getting the vibe in this thread that men of athletic build are not afforded the same laws of self defense as the rest of the population.

If this is written down somewhere I'd love to see it.

 

[Fragamemnon]

The more people argue about this the more likely he will be Auburn's qb in 2017.

won't even need a bagman this time.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What if it was a guy her size?

I am 100% sure hardly anyone would bat an eyelid. It's ridiculous.

 

[marrec]

Online is the only place where this debate could exist. Whether or not it's OK to punch a woman right in her goddamn face if she sort of throws a flabby, loosely balled hand in the general direction of your shoulder. I'm trying to imagine making the pro argument face to face with another human being and it's just not coming to me.

I don't think anyone is pro hitting people in the face.

We're pro him not being stuck with felony assault for defending himself.

 

[entremet]

So if she was ban from going to any college/university in the state of Florida. Would that be even?

That's my point. We can philosophize about equity and gender dynamics all day long, but reality is, that if you're a man and you hit a woman, the consequences are going to be much more stringent than the opposite.

It is fair like people are arguing here? No, it's not fair.

But since I know this as a man, I adjust my behavior appropriately.