Video shows FSU QB throwing a punch at a woman at a bar
- Thread starter MIMIC
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Yep, literally throwing drinks, after being assaulted, that was the point of everything I wrote.
what did you think originally?
You'd have an advantage over most 5'6" 140 pound men too. This isn't a fight in a ring. This isn't a contest. It's one adult assaulting another adult and the other adult retaliating.
Most people don't react to a punch in the face by thinking "this person is smaller and likely weaker than me. I should just concede and walk away." Should they? Yeah, sure. Should they be charged with a crime for retaliating equally (while the instigator is let off the hook) just because of their perceived difference in strength? I'm not so sure about that.
What is your point, exactly? Should women be viewed as threats when they take actions that would be viewed as threatening from a male, or not?
And if not, why?
EDIT: Be out for a bit, but I just want to put it this way: Anytime you're using someone's genitalia or race as a reason for any of your logic, you're probably going to have a hard time with me.
Honestly thought it was completely on his end, and that still has a possibility of being true since we can't see everything in the video. I had thought it looked to me like he was shoving her pretty hard there, and I can't really tell if that was just an accident or not. She was about to punch him, but his first overreaction there was pushing her hand into her chest there, and then of course when he clocked her after she missed that punch.
He should have walked away even if it was a man threatening him.
The same reason we don't see 250 lb men fighting 170 lb men, and yet in a club if the 170 lb man initiated violence against the larger man and got knocked out, nobody would be calling him a victim.
Being the weaker party doesn't give you a free pass to initiate violence against those stronger than you and not expect any repercussions. Most men know this, hence why they typically avoid starting trouble with people they perceive to be much stronger than them.
Again it's clear folks are talking about vigilantes making sure wrong-doers are punished, not the right of a man to defend himself from harm.
But it wasnt...
No one is disagreeing that walking away was the right choice. It also would've been her right choice to not raise a fist, put an arm to his chest, then punch and kick him.
And I hope no one is disagreeing with that either!
EDIT: Now, if only we could see who acted first....
My point is his response wasn't an equal response to the threat at hand.Should women be viewed as threats, when they are threatening? Yes most definitely! As if you're feeling threatened, then inherently the woman in question is capable of making you feel shes a threat. Not just actions, and actions alone in a vacuum. The same applies to men.
But for one to feel physically threatened by a woman, as equal to that of a man, size/possible strength is usually a factor. I generally don't feel threats from smaller guys, just like I don't from a woman of the same size as the smaller guys. I've got a chart with silhouettes.
When you say actions, you mean that I feel physically threatened enough to respond with violence? I'm asking. Or should the actions of a woman, always trigger my same fear response to that of a man, any size or shape, period, and point blank?
If only I was doing what you thought I was.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
Dude could have reacted differently with some sweet talking instead of letting his low test levels get the best of him. The woman clearly had some racial-sexual tension build up that needed rectifying. Instead of being the MVP that night he got cut.
I know...
Really? Doesnt even looks like she landed a punch or kick. Then the guy goes right for the face. Guy going to get a arrested...simple as that.
Thats not how it work. You try to push your way to the bar does not make you a "victim."
Insane people are even debating this.....
Why would size matter in an adult confrontation?
That makes no sense.
Or can a 4" 11" 96 lb man go around throwing punches at...pretty much whoever he pleases without retaliaton?
In this whole thing, I feel like people need to be honest.
If you believe guys should not get into physical altercations with women even when the female is the instigator due to social reasons (and really nothing else), just say it.
Cause it's not physical reasons. Human beings are way too varying for that to even be close to an argument. Too many obvious exceptions. And that would beg the question of miniscule men in fights. Could a large women or man hit back? Or other examples
So no, not scientific reasons. Social.
Just say, "in this aspect, men and women should not be treated equally because of social/societal reasons".
People don't seem to want to say that but I'd respect it a lot more since it's at least honest.
EDIT:
I mean in general.
I'm not really decided on this case. They both effed up from what I see so far.
That makes no sense.
Or can a 4" 11" 96 lb man go around throwing punches at...pretty much whoever he pleases without retaliaton?
In this whole thing, I feel like people need to be honest.
If you believe guys should not get into physical altercations with women even when the female is the instigator due to social reasons (and really nothing else), just say it.
Cause it's not physical reasons. Human beings are way too varying for that to even be close to an argument. Too many obvious exceptions. And that would beg the question of miniscule men in fights. Could a large women or man hit back? Or other examples
So no, not scientific reasons. Social.
Just say, "in this aspect, men and women should not be treated equally because of social/societal reasons".
People don't seem to want to say that but I'd respect it a lot more since it's at least honest.
EDIT:
I mean in general.
I'm not really decided on this case. They both effed up from what I see so far.
No one has been able to produce a case where a man instigated another man with a groin kick and a thrown punch, then had his case heard after he left with a black eye.
How do you account for that? Do you think men as relatively weak as you think she is (based on nothing but her gender) have never gotten drunk and thrown a punch?
They have, and nothing comes from it other than a black eye. If charges ever were filed it would be against who threw the first punch.
styl3s
Member
I have seen a woman shorter then me by at least 3 inches (i am 5'6) knock a guy who was at least 6'2 and 150 pounds more then her out and i am fairly certain she broke his jaw. I have seen men completely destroy people 2-3x their size and men completely destroy men 2-3x smaller.
Not saying every woman (or man) is capable but this notion of size always matters and that women aren't capable of seriously injuring a man or that a man under any circumstance shouldn't defend himself is ab-fucking-surd and i know a lot of women who find it extremely condescending that people act like they are little fragile porcelain dolls.
It's exceedingly simple to account for why no one has presented you with that information: it's impossible to look up every simple battery court case. Your suggestion that the proportionality doctrine doesn't apply in practice to men getting in fights with other men is in fact a claim you have the burden of proving.
You asked me what my point was. That was it. What that has to do with your search to find that case, I'm not sure. The onus is on you to find that information, as it's a point you are trying to prove. What any of this has to do with my response, or my questions to you, is lost on me.
But a shot in the dark? Its happened.
Edit:
If my comments deems me sexist in your eyes,(societies?) I'm just going to have to take that L and move on. But, I will definitely keep this in mind as a learning lesson moving forward.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Her actions become irrelevant post-facepunch, is what you're saying?
Nope, I don't. I have the burden of showing you fightsof 'weak' men against 'strong' men if people still think this is an issue of power, and not sex
So the fact that I can find hundreds of thousands of fights where a man instigated, got punched, and then got sued (as is typical of bar fights), but none of the man who responded getting sued means nothing?
You're not thinking this through
That's my proof, right there. Prove me wrong.
IchigoSharingan
Member
Should we assume the woman felt he couldn't do shit to her without facing repercussions and as such she was free to do what she wanted to him?
What i am saying the dude was out of line. He try to push her out the way at the bar. They have words and she raises her hand and he grabs her. She then tries to fight him off and she loses. This is all of video.... i mean wtf...
Not a big fan of science or facts huh?
Not a big fan of generalizations based on something that people have no control over.
Tell me your science facts. Ones that don't have many exceptions.
Why are we talking about civil suits now? I don't think you understand what you're arguing. No one in this case is being sued.
IchigoSharingan
Member
While men tend to be physically stronger than women, both sexes are resourceful and capable to make up for their physical weaknesses.
franknbeans
Member
Might have known he was on the football team and figured he wouldn't do something stupid to risk getting kicked off the team. Something must have happened between the two of them off camera for him to push his way to the bar and for her to turn around and punch him
Which only makes it worse. The state is prosecuting him. You can't do criminal trials like that as an individual
I'm only looking for a civil suit, not the MUCH more restricting criminal suit.
And you're high off your own farts if you think civil won't follow if he's acquitted.
There have been plenty here willing to assume the QB is a hibitually violent, misogynistic sex offender with poor upbringing and mental health, so I guess that'd be fair.
Firelord Chargrilled
Banned
Welp
KHarvey16 is back time for me to bail out
KHarvey16 is back time for me to bail out
Maybe not you, but a lot of people in this thread have been doing just that.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Eh. Reiteration of the "crowded bar, squeeze to get to the bar," thing. She puts her arm to his chest/throat(?) to prevent him from getting in. Tries to calm her down. Instant escalation. Thinks she's gonna punch him, he takes grip, she gets loose and attempts to attack him, he retaliates with a punch to the face. That's the vid, right? I watched it again, that's pretty muchwhat I saw.
Yeah, he didn't do the right thing with the punch. She didn't do the right thing trying to prevent him from getting to the bar. Both made bad moves.
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.
Your claim was men who provoke fights with other men are never treated as a victim in court cases. Something along the lines of you never see a guy with a black eye being trotted around as his assailant is hauled away in cuffs. You know this is true, you argue, because no one has shown you a case in which this has happened.
The obvious counter to this silly reasoning is that the claim is actually yours, and you need to prove it. The idea that the proportionality doctrine regarding self defense doesn't apply in practice to a fight between two men is not supported by the written law and so requires you to provide evidence.
Big Shirtless Ron
Member
You can see them both try to push their way into the bar. You can see him holding onto the bar while saying something to the woman in front of him (who then makes room) and her try to wedge herself between the guy on her right (whom she also pushes into) and the hat dude. And if you actually pay attention, you can see her using her hips to push him further to the left before turning to attempt to push him further out using her left forearm (while making a fist).
lmao, dude. you're just seeing what you want to see at this point.
You can see her pushing him to the left using her body. He wasn't even paying attention to her until she placed hands on him (her forearm in this case).
Retromelon
Member
If youre a man, unless a women is trying to kill you, hitting her is unacceptable
So you want me to proove its never happened? Well, I have checked every small time battery claim in the history of the US involving a man who kicked another man in the groin, swung at him, got punched then successfully won a civil or criminal trial for the black eye he suffered. I have gone through every. Single. One. Proove me wrong.
You're asking me to proove something has never happened? How should I go about that, shall I start listing cases of bar fights where the person who swung and kicked first lost?
You argue in bad faith.
You may not be a fan of them, but that doesn't change facts. You can acknowledge that males are biologically stronger than females without it becoming about sexism, misogyny or discrimination.
It has been conclusively proven that:
1. The average male is stronger than the average female
2. The average male has a greater punching power than the average female
3. The male musculoskeletal system is more equipped to absorb damage than a female's
Are there exceptions? Of course there are. But in the absence of extenuating circumstances the above 3 facts are proven to be true.
Given that, wouldn't you accept that "men shouldn't hit women" is a pretty good governing principle?
This coming from you is hilarious. You've been oblivious to facts and law all throughout your participation in this thread and have presented yourself as ignorant at best and outright disingenuous at worst.
I argue that it'd be easier to proove (and I've been looking) with one example than to what...list every civil and criminal bar brawl case?
Your claim is that the proportionality doctrine regarding self defense does not apply in cases involving two men. You need to provide support for this.
Retromelon
Member
Sorry bro i was just trying to contribute something
OK, so other things that happen "mostly" to 1 specific group should be allowed to influence or be the basis for our laws?
You're trying to justify stereotypes. As we become more homogeneous, the less weight that holds...and its already pretty light
Prove numbers 2 and 3 please, and then tell me how any of what you're saying is relevant. Coming to conclusions based on the average of a sex or race is sexism, or racism.
Vermillion
Banned
He shouldn't have done it, she shouldn't have done it, and I have no strong feelings about either of them.
Nicktals you really need to step away from the keyboard man.
You keep engaging different users in arguments that follow the same pattern.
1. Gaffer makes a post
2. Nicktals quotes post, makes false equivalency and says "so what's your point?"
3. Gaffer elucidates their point
4. "Yeah but unless arbitrary criteria A, then that's irrelevant"
5. Gaffer provides evidence that arbitrary criteria A is in fact met
6. "Yeah but unless A is true and B is ALSO true, that's irrelevant"
7. Gaffer provides evidence that B is also true
8. Repeat steps 6 and 7 for optional criteria C/D/E
9. Gaffer asks Nicktals to substantiate his own opinion
10. "I don't have to do anything and unless you can provide proof that my opinion is UNtrue, I win"
You keep engaging different users in arguments that follow the same pattern.
1. Gaffer makes a post
2. Nicktals quotes post, makes false equivalency and says "so what's your point?"
3. Gaffer elucidates their point
4. "Yeah but unless arbitrary criteria A, then that's irrelevant"
5. Gaffer provides evidence that arbitrary criteria A is in fact met
6. "Yeah but unless A is true and B is ALSO true, that's irrelevant"
7. Gaffer provides evidence that B is also true
8. Repeat steps 6 and 7 for optional criteria C/D/E
9. Gaffer asks Nicktals to substantiate his own opinion
10. "I don't have to do anything and unless you can provide proof that my opinion is UNtrue, I win"
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