Video shows FSU QB throwing a punch at a woman at a bar

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Dude Abides said:
After he shoves her with his right arm.
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Where do you see a shove? He moves his arm to the bar and makes contact with the girl, she does her freaky owl impression thing and then settles her left arm on the bar and fucking pushes as hard as she can to the left and then flips out.

He never shoves her, wtf dude.
 
Retromelon said:
Well, i don't know why youre making that argument because i never did. You sound like you're trying to justify his act.
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I edited my original post, I'm talking generally and genuinely want to understand the perspective of the argument laid out by a person who is also a feminist at the same time.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
Where do you see a shove? He moves his arm to the bar and makes contact with the girl, she does her freaky owl impression thing and then settles her left arm on the bar and fucking pushes as hard as she can to the left and then flips out.

He never shoves her, wtf dude.
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Right as she's turning around. It's what backs her into glasses guy. Pretty obvious if you're not committed to the "poor innocent guy attacked by crazy bitch" narrative.
 
Nicktals said:
No, you, and people who are defending basing judgment of the whole based on averages are the ones conflating biological truths and socialization.
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The argument: Men are stronger than women
Status: Biological

Your comparison: Likely that a white cop can convict a black kid
Status: Social
 
THRILLH0 said:
Nicktals you really need to step away from the keyboard man.

You keep engaging different users in arguments that follow the same pattern.

1. Gaffer makes a post
2. Nicktals quotes post, makes false equivalency and says "so what's your point?"
3. Gaffer elucidates their point
4. "Yeah but unless arbitrary criteria A, then that's irrelevant"
5. Gaffer provides evidence that arbitrary criteria A is in fact met
6. "Yeah but unless A is true and B is ALSO true, that's irrelevant"
7. Gaffer provides evidence that B is also true
8. Repeat steps 6 and 7 for optional criteria C/D/E
9. Gaffer asks Nicktals to substantiate his own opinion
10. "I don't have to do anything and unless you can provide proof that my opinion is UNtrue, I win"
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I really just want you to prove that the difference in thickness of a male and female skull would make an appreciable difference in the expected damage of a strong punch.

And any false equivalence.

Or how you can say anyone has provided evidence when no links have been posted.

Vermillion said:
The argument: Men are stronger than women
Status: Biological

Your comparison: Likely that a white cop can convict a black kid
Status: Social
Click to expand...

Are all men stronger than all women?

Are black males more likely to commit crime than white males?

You tell me why you think it's okay to stereotype laws based on biological averages, and I'll tell you why it's okay to stereotype laws based on social averages. It's not okay in either case. You are responsible for your actions.
 
Amjad said:
I edited my original post, I'm talking generally and genuinely want to understand the perspective of the argument laid out by a person who is also a feminist at the same time.
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Well ok i'll play along. If two combatants are of disparate enough power levels, it isnt right to engage with a forceful blow on the part of the more powerful party. If a baby bites you you don't clock it.
 
Dude Abides said:
I'm glad you can read minds but the point isn't really the bumping it's the blatant shove after he moves into the space.



After he shoves her with his right arm.
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If I had a dollar for everytime people thought I could read minds, I'd be in jail faster than Miss Cleo and that John-whatever guy South Park ripped on.

USC-fan said:
Oh he should get special treatment because he a FSU football player? LOL

You think no college kids that get in a fight get charged if they are under age? LOL Yeah okayyyy.

Kid will be pick up by another school. No doubt about it. Ruined if college football career LOL
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I'm not saying he should get special treatment. Just saying he should get fair treatment, or better to say...the girl should at least get charges for initiating the situation and being the aggressor.

They're treating her as if she immediately boiled up into a fetal position the whole time and he wailed away on her like a training dummy. When it was nothing even remotely like that.
 
Dude Abides said:
Right as she's turning around. It's what backs her into glasses guy. Pretty obvious if you're not committed to the "poor innocent guy attacked by crazy bitch" narrative.
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Maybe you need to borrow his glasses, she moves forward by herself; the place is crowded and he's still making contact with her, she doesn't like this and moves forward and turns her neck 180 degrees.

You can easily tell she moves forward by herself by looking at her left shoulder/arm.
He was squeezing into the left spot, they were making contact, this is what happens in a crowded place; nobody was shoved.
 
Nicktals said:
Are all men stronger than all women?

Are black males more likely to commit crime than white males?

You tell me why you think it's okay to stereotype laws based on biological averages, and I'll tell you why it's okay to stereotype laws based on social averages. It's not okay in either case. You are responsible for your actions.
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Son, what did I say about conflating biology and sociology? Why would this be useful to me?

Secondly, where did I say a thing about the law?

Thirdly... your example is lol. But okay.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
Maybe you need to borrow his glasses, she moves forward by herself; the place is crowded and he's still making contact with her, she doesn't like this and moves forward and turns her neck 180 degrees.

You can easily tell she moves forward by herself by looking at her left shoulder/arm.
He was squeezing into the left spot, they were making contact, this is what happens in a crowded place; nobody was shoved.
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I said backward, not forward. I'm not inclined to continue explaining this if you're not going to read what you are ostensibly responding to. I guess you're looking at some other part of the video.

It's at 13 seconds of the YouTube video in the OP.
 
jhmtehgamr20xx said:
I'm not saying he should get special treatment. Just saying he should get fair treatment, or better to say...the girl should at least get charges for initiating the situation and being the aggressor.

They're treating her as if she immediately boiled up into a fetal position the whole time and he wailed away on her like a training dummy. When it was nothing even remotely like that.
Click to expand...

He walk up to her and try to push her out the way. No way she the aggressor here. This is why he was charged and kicked out of school.
 
Vermillion said:
Son, what did I say about conflating biology and sociology? Why would this be useful to me?

Secondly, where did I say a thing about the law?

Thirdly... your example is lol. But okay.
Click to expand...

The entire discussion has been about the law. The entire. Thing.

You also haven't said anything....my example of what? That basing anything on stereotypes is something you shouldn't do? A girl could beat the shit out of you. Even a smaller girl.
 
Retromelon said:
Well ok i'll play along. If two combatants are of disparate enough power levels, it isnt right to engage with a forceful blow on the part of the more powerful party. If a baby bites you you don't clock it.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Well yeah I find it truthfull in Israel/Palestine discussions for example.

But... I don't really think that example can be put on this case, or maybe it can, or maybe I'm just blabbering.

Thanks for the input. I'll think about it.
 
Dude Abides said:
I said backward, not forward. I'm not inclined to continue explaining this if you're not going to read what you are ostensibly responding to. I guess you're looking at some other part of the video.
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Backwards? Oh you mean AFTER she does her little hip pushing bullshit and turns around?
 
USC-fan said:
He walk up to her and try to push her out the way. No way she the aggressor here. This is why he was charged and kicked out of school.
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What? She made first contact, and made the first threatening gesture...he was kicked out of school because he punched a female.
 
Nicktals said:
What? She made first contact, and made the first threatening gesture...he was kicked out of school because he punched a female.
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No way she "made first contact" he grabs her before she can do anything. This is after he tries to pushed her out the way to get to the bar. Which is what started the whole thing.

He got kick out because he was under age drinking and beat up a woman. He got arrested because he beat up this female, he should have also been charge with under age drinking.

He has a high $ lawyer so he will get out of it and go to JR college for a year and transfer to another school.

dai said:
That's not what happened at all. Why did you ignore my earlier post? And he was kicked out for being a dumbass and hitting her back.
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There is a video. I can see with my own eyes. I dont need your spin.
 
Dude Abides said:
Backwards. Like I said the first time.
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So again, after she pushes against him as hard as she can, gotcha. So your reply here was bs:

Reizo Ryuu said:
To me it seems like he's just trying to take the spot of the woman that's leaving the bar, and doing so he's making some slight contact with the girl.
If you look closely you can actually see her pushing out with her hips against his forearm, before she turns around and flips out.

Actually you don't even have to look closely, it's clear as day she's pushing hard against him.
Click to expand...

Dude Abides said:
After he shoves her with his right arm.
Click to expand...
 
Vermillion said:
Son, what did I say about conflating biology and sociology? Why would this be useful to me?

Secondly, where did I say a thing about the law?

Thirdly... your example is lol. But okay.
Click to expand...

If it's not about the law, what is it about? What the hell do you think I've been talking about the entire night? Or did you jump in after reading one post of mine?
 
USC-fan said:
No way she "made first contact" he grabs her before she can do anything. This is after he tries to pushed her out the way to get to the bar. Which is what started the whole thing.

He got kick out because is under age drinking and beat up a woman. He got arrested because he beat up this female.

He has a high $ lawyer so he will get out of it and go to JR college for a year and transfer to another school.
Click to expand...

sigh...watch the video in full screen, slowed down. She sets her drink down, raises her fist and pushes her left arm against his chest/neck.

I sigh because this has been covered, numerous times. There have been HD screenshots posted throughout this thread. What page did you start on?
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
So again, after she pushes against him as hard as she can, gotcha. So your reply here was bs:
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No, she doesn't push him as hard as she can before that. You seem to have issues comprehending things here: seeing things that aren't there, reading words as their opposites.

She turns around and flips out after getting pushed. Like I said.
 
USC-fan said:
No way she "made first contact" he grabs her before she can do anything. This is after he tries to pushed her out the way to get to the bar. Which is what started the whole thing.

He got kick out because he was under age drinking and beat up a woman. He got arrested because he beat up this female, he should have also been charge with under age drinking.

He has a high $ lawyer so he will get out of it and go to JR college for a year and transfer to another school.

There is a video. I can see with my own eyes. I dont need your spin.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll do the leg work for you.

http://i.imgur.com/5YLjYyr.jpg

Her body never moves more than a few pixels to either side when you might think they would have incidental contact. He bumps her, she turns, puts her forearm against him, puts her drink down and raises a clenched fist.

That's the first contact that anyone could logically dub "purposeful"

EDIT: Again, what page did you start on?
 
Nicktals said:
If it's not about the law, what is it about? What the hell do you think I've been talking about the entire night? Or did you jump in after reading one post of mine?
Click to expand...

You believed that the idea that men were stronger than women was false.

You were wrong so I responded. Sure, you're using that as part of your larger argument, but your premises were incorrect to begin with. I merely addressed that.

I don't actually care about the rest of your argument. Fact is, she shouldn't have hit him, and vice versa. Legally speaking, I defer to whatever Dude Abides is saying.
 
Nicktals said:
sigh...watch the video in full screen, slowed down. She sets her drink down, raises her fist and pushes her left arm against his chest/neck.

I sigh because this has been covered, numerous times. There have been HD screenshots posted throughout this thread. What page did you start on?
Click to expand...

I dont need people to tell me what I see. It clear as day.....

Honest question. Did you also defend Ray rice?

his wife made "first contact" and Ray is backing away as she going after him. Was he just defending himself too? She should have been charge too?
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
Ok, I guess her hips moving from right to left from 0:10 to 0:13 isn't her pushing in that direction.
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I didn't say that, of course. But if you think that warrants a shove with your arm I guess we can just disagree. In my experience a little hip jostling is expected in a crowded bar, but if you reach out and give someone a push that tends to lead to words getting exchanged or worse. He is 19, he might not understand how bars work.
 
Dude Abides said:
I didn't say that, of course. But if you think that warrants a shove with your arm u guess we can just disagree. In my experience a little hip jostling is expected in a crowded bar, but if you reach out and give someone a push that tends to lead to words getting exchanged or worse. He is 19, he might not understand how bars work.
Click to expand...

She turns around and yells at him even before his arm can move to "shove" her.

HYv4DWf.gif
 
Vermillion said:
You believed that the idea that men were stronger than women was false.

You were wrong so I responded. Sure, you're using that as part of your larger argument, but your premises were incorrect to begin with. I merely addressed that.

I don't actually care about the rest of your argument. Fact is, she shouldn't have hit him, and vice versa. Legally speaking, I defer to whatever Dude Abides is saying.
Click to expand...


Quote me. I absolutely never said that idea was false. Ever. Please find that quote before you say anything else here. You're blatantly lying.

Where did I say "on average, the idea that men are stronger than females is incorrect". Or anything like that.

EDIT: I never did, so I wasn't wrong...and the fact that you don't care about the rest of the argument means you don't care about any of the argument.
 
USC-fan said:
I dont need people to tell me what I see. It clear as day.....

Honest question. Did you also defend Ray rice?

his wife made "first contact" and Ray is backing away as she going after him. Was he just defending himself too? She should have been charge too?
Click to expand...

I have no idea who ray rice is. Second time someone's brought it up. Were they strangers, and did she get drunk at a bar and knee him in the groin and take a swing at him? If not, I have no idea why it's brought up.
 
Dude Abides said:
So? Shoving is an appropriate response to someone saying something to you?
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First she wasn't pushing, then she was shoved before turning around, now it's just so?

Yes don't aggressively push against people and then turn around to flip out, you think he couldn't feel her pushing? Ofcourse he's going to push back when she gets in his face.
 
To the people thinking it's ok for a woman to hit a man why do you think that. Are women to stupid to asses a situation? Are they too emotional to be held responsible for not checking their emotions?
 
I'm getting the idea that ray rice did some bad domestic violence. I'm not sure how that's in any way relevant to this. Unless your logic somehow is telling you "men commit domestic violence, therefore all punches towards females are the same"

I hope that's not the case and there's something I'm missing.
 
Vermillion said:
You believed that the idea that men were stronger than women was false.

You were wrong so I responded. Sure, you're using that as part of your larger argument, but your premises were incorrect to begin with. I merely addressed that.

I don't actually care about the rest of your argument. Fact is, she shouldn't have hit him, and vice versa. Legally speaking, I defer to whatever Dude Abides is saying.
Click to expand...

I also hope people like this are banned. He purposefully is misrepresenting me, and saying I said things I never said. How do I defend myself, or keep the discussion on the double standard of the law in extreme cases such as this, when there have been two people making up claims of what I've said, and when called out, disappear, never to answer....
 
Nicktals said:
Quote me. I absolutely never said that idea was false. Ever. Please find that quote before you say anything else here. You're blatantly lying.

Where did I say "on average, the idea that men are stronger than females is incorrect". Or anything like that.

EDIT: I never did, so I wasn't wrong...and the fact that you don't care about the rest of the argument means you don't care about any of the argument.
Click to expand...

You asked someone to prove that the average male has greater punching power and other bullshit. Then you kept saying things like "are all men stronger than all women." Perhaps my observation is better phrased as "you believed the idea that men are stronger than women was an inappropriate generalization, likening it to racism and sexism."

Indeed, it doesn't compare~

EDIT: Lmao, it's been 11 minutes. This isn't Facebook messenger
 
I've never understood the argument that a woman can do as she pleases with little consequence because a man is stronger.

What if we applied that same logic to two guys, one being smaller than the other. Is the shorter dude allowed a free pass because he's physically weaker? Fuck no, don't start anything you can't finish.

Not advocating violence against women, but they shouldn't punch a man with no expectation of retaliation just because of their gender.
 
Reizo Ryuu said:
First she wasn't pushing, then she wasr shoved before turning around, now it's just so?

Yes don't aggressively push against people and then turn around to flip out, you think he couldn't feel her pushing? Ofcourse he's going to push back when she gets in his face.
Click to expand...

You're making less and less sense. She was shoved before turning around (actually more like as she was turning around before she was in his face). Glad we agree. Beyond that I have no idea what you're on about except that your theory that she was performing some hockey style hip check strikes me as inane.
 
Dude Abides said:
You're making less and less sense. She was shoved before turning around (actually more like as she was turning around before she was in his face). Glad we agree. Beyond that I have no idea what you're on about except that your theory that she was performing some hockey style hip check strikes me as inane.
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Did you just choose not to look at the gif? she turns around even before his arm has a chance to move, she only gets pushed backwards because his arm is still making contact with her hip when turns towards her when she gets in his face.

And what theory? It's clear as fucking day she's pushing hard against him, look at how far out her hip is going to the left dude, she even repositions her elbows to get more leverage for pushing.
I'm just going to assume you are being purposefully dense if you can't see that.
 
Vermillion said:
You asked someone to prove that the average male has greater punching power and other bullshit. Then you kept saying things like "are all men stronger than all women." Perhaps my observation is better phrased as "you believed the idea that men are stronger than women was an inappropriate generalization, likening it to racism and sexism."

Indeed, it doesn't compare~

EDIT: Lmao, it's been 11 minutes. This isn't Facebook messenger
Click to expand...

Keep searching. My entire point through all of this, as repeated over 20 times now, is that it's not okay to make judgements about the whole of a group based on averages. Whether biological or social. That's stereotyping defined.

I asked someone who created a bullshit top 10 list without actually saying anything, or ever providing any proof of anything he's said, to prove his points that men can hit harder than women, and that women have skeletal musculature that would make them more vulnerable to punches.

He said men had thicker skulls, and that that was important to this discussion, without any proof. He also said I made false equivalences, without any proof or quotes. He also said people have proved things to me while I've remained ignorant, yet he hasn't posted any links to anything....

EDIT: Why do you think I asked the question of "are all men stronger than all women"? I asked it to hopefully illuminate that anytime you stereotype you're shortchanging those who don't fit that mold.
 
Epicine said:
I've never understood the argument that a woman can do as she pleases with little consequence because a man is stronger.

What if we applied that same logic to two guys, one being smaller than the other. Is the shorter dude allowed a free pass because he's physically weaker? Fuck no, don't start anything you can't finish.

Not advocating violence against women, but they shouldn't punch a man with no expectation of retaliation just because of their gender.
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I feel like its some undercover misogynist shit, like women cant process shit or have the same ability to check their emotions like a man
 
Vermillion said:
You believed that the idea that men were stronger than women was false.

You were wrong so I responded. Sure, you're using that as part of your larger argument, but your premises were incorrect to begin with. I merely addressed that.

I don't actually care about the rest of your argument. Fact is, she shouldn't have hit him, and vice versa. Legally speaking, I defer to whatever Dude Abides is saying.
Click to expand...

I want to make sure you don't move the goal posts too far without admitting you were wrong first. Did I say that the idea that men were stronger than females was false?

If not, why did you say I did?

You also said that aside from what you were wrong about, you didn't care about the rest of my argument....which is quite literally the entirety of my argument, since I never said what you claimed. So why did you respond, and why haven't you acknowledged that you were wrong and attempted to misrepresent me?

EDIT: And I think we'd all love to hear why generalizing strength based on sex isn't equatable to sexism.
 
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