Do not upgrade to Windows 10 (yet) if you are using DualShock 4
- Thread starter Knurek
- Start date
Resolution
Member
I hope there is a solution soon since i use my ds4 for a lot of pc games and emulators.
I think most emulators support Directinput, so you should be able to continue using your DS4 with those without too many problems.
Felix Lighter
Member
My plan is to wait a bit anyway just for issues like these that will take some time to work out
paperspace
Member
Is this a joke?
Mister Negative
Member
Thanks for the heads up. Was going to wait a while to upgrade to 10 on my gaming PC anyway, but this just gives me a little more concrete reason.
So am I understanding this correctly - it gives issues for games that already support the DS4? (i.e. only a handful like FFX14) Thus the double input from both native support followed by the emulated XINPUT from the software?
If so, then I have no problem. I only use it for Guild Wars 2 which doesn't support controllers at all. Isn't DS4Windows used to support it for games with no controller support or only XINPUT support? Who would be using it on a game that already supports the DS4 natively, unless there's some bluetooth issue I don't know about.
If so, then I have no problem. I only use it for Guild Wars 2 which doesn't support controllers at all. Isn't DS4Windows used to support it for games with no controller support or only XINPUT support? Who would be using it on a game that already supports the DS4 natively, unless there's some bluetooth issue I don't know about.
Felix Lighter
Member
In DS4Windows you can set up profiles per game, I imagine setting up DirectInput only for the games that support it should work, correct? Basically, the opposite of hide the DS4 option, it's basically hide the XInput option.
They haven't really broken their own standard here. If you were actually using it as a DirectInput device, then it would be working fine. The problem is because we're trying to convince Windows that our crappy DirectInput device is the new hotness, and some software is accepting both.
Felix Lighter
Member
Oh yeah? DS4 button prompts?
No, it still has Xbox button prompts for some reason. All the buttons work though, including the touchpad being able to take you directly into the inventory.
They didn't break their own standard. What's happening is the games support the current xinput, but also accept the old dinput standard. The xinput wrapper the generic USB controllers are using is translating dinput inputs into xinput inputs and passing them to the games. When a game supports both dinput and xinput the xinput wrapper is passing the inputs to the program while the program is also seeing the dinput inputs. So you get double inputs. What used to happen is they would "hide" the dinput device from windows programs so that only xinput inputs were seen by the programs. I'm sure they'll come up with a workaround.
The real issue is that the current standard is xinput and Sony doesn't support it which isn't really Microsoft's problem.
Felix Lighter
Member
Well that's a shame. The more games that use the prompts the better.
Bruno
Member
I remember reading before release CDPR saying it would have native support for DS4 and it ended up not working without DS4Windows. I'm dying to get some DS4 prompts for Witcher 3.
Ok sooo...some nooby questions:
Will I still be able to use my DS4 for emulators?
Will I still be able to go into games like Mirrors Edge and Brothers and manually configure the controls to use my DS4 as a generic wireless Bluetooth controller?
The touchpad as a mouse function won't work at all? I love flipping my yoga vertically and playing DS emulators full screen with a DS4 and using the touchpad for bottom screen controls.
Will I still be able to use my DS4 for emulators?
Will I still be able to go into games like Mirrors Edge and Brothers and manually configure the controls to use my DS4 as a generic wireless Bluetooth controller?
The touchpad as a mouse function won't work at all? I love flipping my yoga vertically and playing DS emulators full screen with a DS4 and using the touchpad for bottom screen controls.
jediyoshi
Member
Nothing you've mentioned will be affected at all, the issue isn't that DS4Windows will stop working. Double check the OP. What's affected is the usability of games that already support the DS4 while using DS4Windows.
Doesn't work. Dinput Only requires Hide DS4.
DS4Windows has functionality outside of that as far as rebinding touchpad gestures/shortcuts/pointer support. If you use something like Steam BPM, consistently having a guide button is useful. A lot of it is convenience since otherwise you're now going to have to manually open or close DS4Windows on a per game basis rather than let the auto profile functionality sort it out.
Absurd, that'd basically be telling developers to not use the controller's functionality outside of what a Xbox gamepad offers.
Directinput has been deprecated and has been superseded by xinput. You are asking all current developers to spend time and money supporting an obsolete standard because Sony won't provide the relevant support for their controllers on PC.
There's two sides to this imo.
Firstly, MS has deprecated DirectInput in favour of a new standard that's actually proprietary. As popular as it is, I don't think it's fair to expect other companies to pay licensing fees in order to simply have their controller work with PC games.. especially if that basically means making a PlayStation controller Xbox compatible in some form.
However, on the the other hand, MS may have deprecated DirectInput but it still works, and I don't think they should be expected to maintain it forever if they're not using it for their own products. XInput should never have so easily become the absolute standard because a company like Sony should have had an XInput equivalent of their own. Games would then just be able to map that as an alternate configuration, and all would be sorted. But nooooo... that's all apparently a bit much to ask.
jediyoshi
Member
What exactly is that support in lieu of the alternative you're presented? The point still completely stands. If you're now explicitly telling developers that they cannot use DS4's extra functionality over an Xbox controller, it's a loss, especially as developers have increasingly been going the complete opposite of the scenario you've presented.
Felix Lighter
Member
I was not aware of that. That seems counter intuitive but the devs know way better than I do obviously.
Regardless, it's unfair to expect developers to have to support an obsolete standard. Hence we have xinput wrappers from third parties. I'm sure they'll find a work around for the current issue.
As for the xinput issue, if Sony really wants to support their controllers on PC without paying licensing fees, then they should be backing an open controller standard. Directinput is deprecated and will only have legacy support going forward. Asking developers to support a current open standard is definitely something I can get behind on PC.
Sony should either support the existing closed standard xinput, or they should be backing an open standard. The third option which is the deprecated dinput leaves them in a no mans land where they can't really expect any support whatsoever.
Yup agreed. That probably should have been my third point. If people want good DualShock support, they should be hassling Sony about it. It's neither Microsoft's nor the game developer's problem if Sony hasn't provided a satifactory way for their controllers to work well on PC.
You don't see Nvidia releasing graphics cards with DOS level display support, expecting MS to build a universal driver for them, and combine it into DirectX. Nah, it's your hardware, support it properly.
Revengineer
Unconfirmed Member
But by default it's just the mouse cursor and fucks shit up lol
They haven't really announced a date yet, so it might not be December. It might be next year.
Both xinput and directinput have not seen any real changes since dx9. This affects all HID devices. Not just the DS4. All HID (a universal standard ) devices would have this problem if they tried to pass off as an xinput device. There shouldn't be an XInput for every controller out there that would just be silly.
There is a standard, HID, we don't need more and more proprietary APIs like xinput for each HID device on the market because they don't use the proprietary XUSB MS uses. That would defeat the entire purpose of the HID standard. The OS should handle all HID devices equally like it did so and continues to do so in DirectInput.
Nope. If you think Windows 10 isn't going to be bug-ridden at launch, you haven't been paying attention.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
I don't think there would be many. There's XInput now. There would be PSInput for PS controllers, and then what else? DirectInput would still be there (and roughly as useless/unsupported as it is today), but you'd likely be a lot better off with a DualShock. There isn't really any other controllers, that have the penetration required to warrant its own drivers/API. Everything from Madcatz, Hori etc, is basically just an Xbox pad or a PlayStation pad, as would report to the OS as such.
And you have? What are you basing your assumption on?
paying attention to what?
Really disappointing to read this considering that I just managed to get the Bluetooth wireless connection to work between my gaming PC and the DS4. This is certainly not helping in terms of convincing me to upgrade to Windows 10 this summer.
Hopefully someone will be able to put together something that will address this and we can move on.
Hopefully someone will be able to put together something that will address this and we can move on.
Iced_Eagle
Member
Windows 10 is easily the most well tested version of Windows ever with about 5 million people in the insider program. Yes, software will launch with bugs (though in the case of this thread -- it's not a bug as it's a third party issue). That's the reality of software development. There has not been an operating system from any vendor which you could declare perfect and bug-free. It's a far cry to call it "bug-ridden" though.
The other aspect is that MS is done with the concept of "service packs". They're going to be updating Windows 10 more similarly to how they're updating Xbox One. Perhaps not monthly, but perhaps every other month or every quarter there will be an update which includes fixes and new features. The first of these updates is coming out sometime between September and November according to rumors, so if you are hesitant to get software at launch, that would probably be the best time.
What about VR controllers, what about the Steam Controller, what about Wii Pro Controllers.? What about the countless other HID PC controllers on the market already? They shouldn't get the shaft simply because they are not as widely adopted, goes against the philosophy of a PC entirely.
HID is the driver, that's the standard. It doesn't require licensing from XBox or Playstation. It wouldn't require another API for each controller if the OS does not deprecate the HID compatible API. We certainly don't want a proprietary API for each controller out there or limit it to those widely adopted when the latest API should just support standard HID.
Literally every other windows launch?
Vista, Windows 7, Windows 8 were perfect at launch?
I don't really want to argue too much back and forth with you on this, because historically, it tends to take a lot of time, lol... and also I don't completely disagree with what you're saying here.
Basically, I agree that a single standard would be ideal, however as you say, we've already got one right... and we've had it for far longer than XInput has existed. So why was trying to play PC games with a controller such a hit and miss experience prior to that (and for everything other than that since so far)? The way I see it, is that the current standard has to describe so many different devices, that it's basically not describing any... which leaves it all up to the development studios to handle different configurations, that are reported in much the same way, individually. And they can't be assed to (understandably), when they can just opt for a single alternative option that perfectly describes the controller, where every button is, how it's labelled etc, and then the end user can either buy that controller or deal. If simply having HID was enough, then we wouldn't be trying to pass the input off as XInput presses in the first place.
All these other controllers are already getting the shaft, and were doing so long before the 360 pad came along as a standard (I would know, I've been hooking my PC up to TVs for over 15 years now). This is one situation where the introduction of the proprietary solution honestly appears to have made things a lot better. Maybe the other controllers just need their OpenGL to XInput's DirectX, I dunno... I just don't think you'll ever get the same sort of reliable functionality, comparable to how the controller functions on its dedicated console, by reporting it as a generic device. With their own driver every aspect of the controller from the touchpad, right down to the headset jack can be handled seamlessly, and in the way you'd expect the PS4 to handle them. That's what the Xbox controller currently offers.
None of those are perfect today.
Outside of people not liking the Start Screen though, I don't recall any major issues with Windows 8's launch tbh.
Yeah, I've been running the Windows 10 beta for some time now and for the past couple of months its been extremely stable and the only things I've really seen complaints about are with MS' new browser, Cortana's voice recognition, and the continued shittiness of "modern apps" -- none of which I'll use anyway.
did we have the insider program back than?
calling it bug-ridden is a bit much wait till the FINAL version is out to the public and give the devs of DS4Windows sometime to fix it
HID is just the standard that allows devices to interface with the computer. HID is not an API like directinput or xinput. Directinput itself is a proprietary API for windows. Directinput is deprecated and everyone should be moving to a different API at this point as it only exists for legacy support.
What people should be asking for is an open standard competitor to xinput, and not for developers and manufacturers to stick with an obsolete API for which Microsoft has dropped support.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Forced updates and now this?
Crayon
Member
Wait what.
...google...
Awwwww.
From: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/07/17/windows-10-forced-automatic-updates/
From: http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/17/8987549/microsoft-windows-10-automatic-updates
Well there it is.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
If it were just Windows updates it would be OK. If you want to use an older driver for say your GPU you're shit out of luck.
joeygreco1985
Member
I use ds4windows with retroarch, epsxe, and dolphin on windows 10 fast ring builds and all worked fine. I didn't even know there was a problem until I saw this thread.
I'll learn to read one day when I'm not exhausted
Basically this is what I do for OS X now, wait a few patches after an initial release.
Apple can't be trusted to do a good 1.0 release without fucking everything up (discoveryd).
I absolutely agree that it has made it easier in places but
people often try to pass it off as Xinput because the introduction of xinput and MS' tendency to call Directinput deprecated has led to some games simply ignoring all other HID control pads by not using Directinput at all, not because the user wants to use xinput but because it's rather frustrating for the user to have to switch between the two when games don't have HID controller support. Point being, because we had Xinput in the first place which only supported xbox controllers instead of improving on a standard API we now have a situation where other controllers are getting the shaft even more and have to pretend to be a nonstandard controller owned by the company that makes the OS. There was no reason why we couldn't have the simplicity of xinput with directinput (other than trying to sell controllers that is). The touchpad is standard HID btw, it doesn't need a driver.
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