I mean what I say. I will not add to the criticism, but I will add my voice to a discussion surrounding that criticism.
Jimquisition (September 14th, 2015) - A Quiet Conversation
- Thread starter L~A
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I mean what I say. I will not add to the criticism, but I will add my voice to a discussion surrounding that criticism.
That's sort of the problem, other than Quiet's representation, MGS5 is probably the best video game of the year. The usage of her character is one of the massive black eyes this game has. The other being FOB and how terrible it is. A third being the fact that the back 3rd of the game is missing but...hey. Konami.
Vlaphor
Member
That wasn't the point of what I was saying. Feel free to criticize Quiet's portrayal. Freedom of speech is very important for everyone. I said that because it seems that you don't want dissident voices added to the conversation, as evidenced by your statement of "If you don't want to add your voice, then you shouldn't post".
To be honest, I think the claim of, "If you don't like the game, then don't buy it." to be only partially valid. A few years ago, you really wouldn't have been able to avoid it, so not buying it wouldn't have been an option. Today, fanservice-free options abound, and fanservice characters like Quiet are the exception, not the norm.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
The design is stupid and the lecherous camerawork just adds insult to injury.
That said, I really like the idea of "the naked sniper" and what kind of character that could be. Quiet comes pretty close in terms of personality - someone who just doesn't give a fuck what others think of her (except for Big Boss I suppose).
I wonder, if censorship wasn't an issue would Kojima just have had her be fully nude? The ripped stockings and other details just make the whole thing so damn tacky. That said, not a guarantee that the camera direction wouldn't end up even worse.
I feel like if Kojima was actually trying to say something with Quiet then she could be a much design all around while still retaining that "naked sniper" concept, but I don't see any evidence yet that this wasn't just a venture to create a sexy character using new technology.
That said, I really like the idea of "the naked sniper" and what kind of character that could be. Quiet comes pretty close in terms of personality - someone who just doesn't give a fuck what others think of her (except for Big Boss I suppose).
I wonder, if censorship wasn't an issue would Kojima just have had her be fully nude? The ripped stockings and other details just make the whole thing so damn tacky. That said, not a guarantee that the camera direction wouldn't end up even worse.
I feel like if Kojima was actually trying to say something with Quiet then she could be a much design all around while still retaining that "naked sniper" concept, but I don't see any evidence yet that this wasn't just a venture to create a sexy character using new technology.
I always thought that EVA was handed pretty well in MGS3.
She is a spy that uses her sexuality (among other capabalities) to get to her targets.
He shows how being a sexual object backfired, when Snake takes a look at her scars (and her beating by Volgin).
Even in the cave scene, the most.. provocative scene of hers you get that she is not drooling for Snake (who is a pretty... beautiful man), she just offers sex as a stress relief for what he had been to (torture, lost eye, nearly drowned), it's no biggie for her to use her body.
However (at least how i see it) that is the most important scene in Snake's and Eva's relationship, because despite all that Big Boss refuses the offer (to Eva's surprise).
Big Boss did not see her as a sex object (no matter how "enchanted" he is by her looks) and THAT is the moment when she gets to really appreciate him.
She didn't fall for him because he is a macho man, but because even in his lowest, even when sex was put on the table as merely a service, he respected her.
(At least that's how i want to believe it's the case)
Dice//
Banned
Well I think the objections were more "I think this is silly.... but it's not like I want to voice an opinion about it". To say you're adding nothing when you indeed added something was just kind of funny.
Quoting because it got page'd.
Yeah, I feel just a straight bikini would have been better. I don't get the ripped stocking. Looks trashy.... Oh and speaking of ...
Like...change your clothes. Are non-ripped varietals available? xD
I mean, to be fair, she retracted her statement and made it more clear. "Not lending your voice to a criticism" means not talking about it at all, not reserving your opinion for the side you agree with.
Right, because not liking something makes one 'outraged.'
The end of the game and MGS4 offer some counter arguments to that as Eva DOES fall for the boss by the end of the game and beyond, but i'd say that in the timeline of MGS3 itself, that's pretty apt.
Either way, it's a situation and resulting outcome that's 100 times more well thought out than anything that happens with Quiet which, again, makes stuff like the B&B and Quiet seem all the more mind boggling from a design stand point.
Dear god are you reaching.
First of all and for the millionth time, sexiness is not even the biggest problem of Quiet. It can be used as an example of A problem of having everyone in fiction (especially women) be sexy super models and a symptom of the common objectification of women in our societies, but the bigger problem is how she acts like a porn star in some porn shoot and how the camera angles are meant to take advantage of that. If someone had a painting where Quiet was in the kind of porn-shoot poses she is in the game, I doubt anyone would regard it as some kind of high art that is above criticism. Nude women are great. Art with nude women can be great. But there has to be some kind of logic to it all. If someone depicted World War II in some piece of art and just threw some random nude women there who were in poses Jenna Jameson would be proud with with no rhyme or reason, it would be criticized as well.
And there's nothing brilliant about Quiet. She's a text-book example of the objectification of women in our entertainment. There's no meta-commentary where Kojima is actually REALLY just criticizing the prevelance of such a phenomenon in the world. She's just a horribly designed sex object, in her default outfit.
Also, you CAN dress her up in proper military gear and she is automatically a much more believable character, thus making for a not-as-jarring experience, thus making it a better game. So yes, just dressing her up would make for a better game. Though her suggestive poses & camera angles focusing on her assets would still remain, so all of it wouldn't be fixed.
Couldn't have said it better. I don't mind her clothes myself (or the lack of), but the stupid and completely unnecessary poses she does are what irritate me.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Kojima wanted to say something meaningful about her but he also wanted to perv out. So he decided to go both ways with it and ultimately his pervy side won out as a result. Sad considering there are genuine moments with her.
Basketball
Member
Joosten's alright with it
I'm alright with it.
I'm alright with it.
Dice//
Banned
Wish you could do that on the PS4.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's like HotD, I admit to liking that anime but the titilation was excessive and uneeded. Although that sniper scene was funny.
Waiting for the moment where someone replaces Quiet's model during "THAT ONE SCENE" with Kojima's.
I do believe that EVA fell for him but not just for his masculinity, but as far as B&B and Quiet you are right, that's why i stressed that this is how "I" view it. Maybe Kojima is indeed a lot more perv that i'd like to admit.....
DLC plz
I mean, no.
Titillation is what HoTD was. It's like DxD, the purpose of that show was to be a soft core hentai for 1/3rd of the time. It knows what it's doing, it's flagrant with it, and it handles with it a nudge to the ribs and a knowing wink.
MGS5 doesn't do that at any point. I think all of us held Metal Gear to a higher standard. Maybe we shouldn't have but....
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I dunno with something like HOTD or other ecchi/ero you at least know what you're getting into. And I don't even hate that kinda stuff - they know what they're doing and what their audience wants. I've watched a few anime like that enjoyed the sex appeal.
Yes MGS games have featured that kind of lewd "fanservice" before but not to this degree. It was also mostly optional before like in MGS3 where the player can press a button to control Big Boss' POV, but in MGSV the camera forcibly lingers on Quiet's body in a really lecherous manner. I'm sure that took a lot of fans, myself included, by surprise.
Basically the series before this kinda walked a fine line and it was just a silly part of its DNA before. In MGSV it feels like oggling Quiet's naughty bits takes precedence over everything else with the character. And it's a big turn off because it happens every fucking time she is on screen. And it's not playful about it, no one really comments on it and Quiet just does her thing. It makes the player feel like some sort of creepy forced voyeur.
At least Jim's offering the level headed point of "If you have it in there cause you want it and own such then fine."
No qualm from me there then.
Him using that David Cage nonsense with snoging overdub is starting to grow old though. At least re-encode that stuff to 60fps, Jim.
No qualm from me there then.
Him using that David Cage nonsense with snoging overdub is starting to grow old though. At least re-encode that stuff to 60fps, Jim.
The explanation for Quiet's character is incredibly flakey.
THAT cutscene is just laughable. It's the absolute most cringeworthy thing I've ever witnessed in a videogame. I had to skip it. As far as I'm concerned it's absolutely indefensible, and honestly makes me kinda glad that Kojima won't be making Metal Gear Solid games anymore. It'd be interesting to see a take on this series that appreciates the strength of the characters, as well as the charm and the humour, without utterly embarrassing scenes like that making it in anymore.
THAT cutscene is just laughable. It's the absolute most cringeworthy thing I've ever witnessed in a videogame. I had to skip it. As far as I'm concerned it's absolutely indefensible, and honestly makes me kinda glad that Kojima won't be making Metal Gear Solid games anymore. It'd be interesting to see a take on this series that appreciates the strength of the characters, as well as the charm and the humour, without utterly embarrassing scenes like that making it in anymore.
Gentleman Jack
Member
MGS4 had scads of this stuff, from 'press R2 for Naomi's upskirt shot!' to the extra scenes following every BB Unit fight. I guess it was a little more optional back then, but MGSV doesn't represent a sudden raising of these particular stakes.
I mean, don't get it twisted, there will never be another Metal Gear game. Konami doesn't want them.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yeah MGS4 is where it started to kinda push it too far in that direction, but it was still up to the player to do those things. What makes MGSV more culpable is that the player does not have the choice.
Basketball
Member
I've have watched Joosten do lets plays of the game with her friend
And Joosten was telling her how common this stuff is in MGS series but her friend kept telling her how demeaning it is yada yada yada... Joosten sat there looking gloomy trying to get her friend to enjoy the game. It was kinda sad.
Joosten embraces the fan art (even posts them on her twitter), she thinks the character is really cool, and she seems genuinely happy about her inclusion in the game while others are telling her how she should feel embarrassed or have more respect or whatever
And Joosten was telling her how common this stuff is in MGS series but her friend kept telling her how demeaning it is yada yada yada... Joosten sat there looking gloomy trying to get her friend to enjoy the game. It was kinda sad.
Joosten embraces the fan art (even posts them on her twitter), she thinks the character is really cool, and she seems genuinely happy about her inclusion in the game while others are telling her how she should feel embarrassed or have more respect or whatever
I'd say it represents a shift from them being fun extras that you can trip over and laugh at due to their obsurdity, to being the actual narrative voice and tossing it all in your face.
Weird as it was, you don't HAVE to get to the white room in MGS4, you don't HAVE to turn on the ipod, you don't HAVE to turn on the camera, you don't HAVE to get in the box with Paz.
You HAVE to stare at Quiet's tits and ass for almost a collective hour.
I'm sure she's proud of her performance and she likes the character. A lot of people do, they're not wrong for doing so. I think there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on in her actual story.
I still wish the game did a better job fleshing her out as a person than using her as a moving pin up, in a game where you already can collect assorted pin ups. It hurts the character in my, and a lot of people's, eyes.
I mean, I'm not going to sit here and say that all the people cosplaying her should stop though I would lean forward with a cocked eyebrow and ask them sternly how they decided to come up with the idea to cosplay her months before the game's release and before they knew anything about her.
But that's neither here nor there.
I was under the impression that scenes with Quiet were based on the bond mechanic. Does this scene appear if you permabench her and only use DD or your horse?
Gentleman Jack
Member
The best subversive argument for having every game on PC is so that the community can mod in easy to understand counterarguments to the 'it's not just juvenile fanservice it's important to the plot!' justifications for crap like this.
And even without considering all of that, her character is still shit, a mute retard with magic pixie dust powers. Her whole concept is shit, she can't bring anything to the table except ass shots.
MMaRsu
Member
If there were sexy males in the game id be fine with it too, if thats how Kojima envisioned them..
Hasn't Konami confirmed exactly the opposite to this statement?
I think people who equate Konami's recent actions with an exit from the entire industry are jumping the gun. I mean, a lot of folks seem to be forgetting that PES is still a thing that isn't just still happening, but is also very well supported by Konami and doesn't appear to have a point of expiry. By all reckoning this years one is the best in about 10 years.
To be honest, after playing MGSV I'm starting to side more with the arguments that Konami was just sick of Kojima than I am the Konami-apocalypse one (as much as I still enjoy Jim's videos on that too). I think Kojima dropped the ball ridiculously hard with MGSV in some incredibly frustrating ways. Quiet is honestly just the tip of a pretty shitty iceberg. There's a backlash on the way for some of the other horseshit as well once some spoiler sensitivity settles down.
In my opinion it is good that she likes how the character turned out, better for her to like it than hate it. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.
So basically Kojima lied? LOL. I will say though I get why he lied even if its a bad look for him - he was going to get reamed about Quiet even if he was "honest" about it so why not try to go for good PR until the game actually came out and was in people's hands? A cynical perspective but I'm pretty sure he and his marketing team thought it was the better one. :/
With regards to the inherent nature of criticism, when its done about current media in a off the hip sort of way (like pretty much all forum posts and most articles) the implication is always one of three: A) I would have been happier if X wasn't this way and I would have liked it to have been changed if it could have been B) I would have been happier if X wasn't this way and since it is something that still can be changed I want them to change it now C) I hope this isn't repeated in the future. Like at the end of the day its only a suggestion that developers can hear or ignore but we still criticize (whatever our current target is) because we want to affect change. I find it weird that some people deny that (there are many examples where criticism has lead to positive change) and at the same time I don't think those who make logical inferences about what some people want based on their criticism is are wrong.
All that being said, as someone who hasn't and has no real interest in playing MGSV, the criticism with Quiet isn't that she's sexy but rather that the execution really doesn't work in the context of this game - like at all. Even if you find Queit's character design appealing, I would think (based on what I'm seeing) that everyone of every preference wouldn't want sexualization to be so immersion breaking and narratively flimsy (see the quote below) as it is here no?
Fucking LOL.
With regards to the inherent nature of criticism, when its done about current media in a off the hip sort of way (like pretty much all forum posts and most articles) the implication is always one of three: A) I would have been happier if X wasn't this way and I would have liked it to have been changed if it could have been B) I would have been happier if X wasn't this way and since it is something that still can be changed I want them to change it now C) I hope this isn't repeated in the future. Like at the end of the day its only a suggestion that developers can hear or ignore but we still criticize (whatever our current target is) because we want to affect change. I find it weird that some people deny that (there are many examples where criticism has lead to positive change) and at the same time I don't think those who make logical inferences about what some people want based on their criticism is are wrong.
All that being said, as someone who hasn't and has no real interest in playing MGSV, the criticism with Quiet isn't that she's sexy but rather that the execution really doesn't work in the context of this game - like at all. Even if you find Queit's character design appealing, I would think (based on what I'm seeing) that everyone of every preference wouldn't want sexualization to be so immersion breaking and narratively flimsy (see the quote below) as it is here no?
Fucking LOL.
Let's put it this way.
You don't hire up for a new metal gear game when you leave a third of the last one on the cutting room floor.
We'll get PES, we'll get mobile, we'll get a whole lot of pachislot. But Konami has made it abundantly clear that they are DONE with the traditional games business. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a similar deal that Valve does, where if you buy a license for the Fox engine, you have to PUBLISH with them, because Konami can publish the hell out of a video game.
But making them? Naw. That's done.
The stuff with Paz in GZ seemed particularly mean spirited.
The stuff with Paz in MGS5 turned that up to 11.
Kojima fucking hates Paz.
Pyramid head
Banned
I was convinced that the 'reason' was going to be that her skin was capable of camoflage or something. Which would have made more sense than this breathing malarky, not to the extent that anyone would feel ashamed of calling it out though.
Btw, I haven't played the game yet but based on the trailer with her crazy eye shadow and some cosplay pics I've seen of Quiet showing not just skin, but what's under it too, I'm assuming she does have some sort of ability?
Btw, I haven't played the game yet but based on the trailer with her crazy eye shadow and some cosplay pics I've seen of Quiet showing not just skin, but what's under it too, I'm assuming she does have some sort of ability?
MMaRsu
Member
Sad to see her judged like this..
In action/spy movies I dont hear these complaints
Generalpsyduck
Banned
if you don't want her in the game
:early plot spoiler
the shoot her in the mission you get her in
Or just go around her. I did that the first time because Kaz makes it sound like you aren't supposed to fight her
But yes, she is optional.
It's complicated because the nature of her abilities seem to change around the further the game goes. It's basically a "nanomachines" style retcon. And yes, I agree, if they chocked up it up to her chameleon powers, it would have made more sense. But then the question is, well, why isn't she actually nude at that point?
The bottom line is, it doesn't matter. Quiet's design was finished well before they had to write any backstory for her. She looks like that because that's how Kojima wanted her to look, and while there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make the design any more interesting or credible.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Nice choice of words there. Real classy.
shiftplusone
Member
I know from reading around that you can get her into some proper clothes
what does that take? because this "gotta put my ass in your face stretch before the mission!" is fucking lame
what does that take? because this "gotta
What? Metal Gear Solid games sell well. I don't see why Konami wouldn't take a punt and making it a yearly franchise, or something with more frequent releases than we've seen in the past. They started hiring a team already.
Nah. I could see Konami trying to make another console Metal Gear Solid game quicker and for less, but I doubt they'll jump straight to mobile. They have the game engine, they have the formula, they'll want to reproduce it to the best of their ability.
Without knowing the reasons for them leaving all that content out, that's not necessarily as black and white as that though.
If content was cut because Konami were absolutely sick of supporting Kojima on an endless time and money loop for what was already a long and incredibly expensive project, and demanded a release, then that explains that. After seeing Chapter 2 I think that's also an incredibly likely scenario. How much more money and time was Kojima wanting? I don't believe Episode 51 was even close to being the only thing evidently missing.
Because Konami doesn't want to make video games anymore, PERIOD. It's not just Metal Gear or Castlevania or Silent Hill. They want to be out of that business REAL bad. I don't blame them, their creators are gone, their business practices are dodgy, they don't have anyone with creative vision to take over those franchises and building a new franchise is super risky and uber costly. They want out.
I mean, let's assume that the 80 million dollar budget figures were right.
Was there any worry that they weren't going to make that back? MGS5 is likely already profitable. I don't doubt that the reason the back end of the game was gutted was because of internal strife but that's all the more reason to consider Konami over and done with all this.
Pachislot is their future. And that is not a future that includes us.
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