I think part of the problem was that a lot of the mechanics were hidden to the players until much much later in the game. The book and what it can do, the effects of insanity, etc.
GAF Mafia/Werewolf |OT| A forum game of secrets and treachery - sign up to play!
I think part of the problem was that a lot of the mechanics were hidden to the players until much much later in the game. The book and what it can do, the effects of insanity, etc.
I'm just having a bit of trouble reconciling the dissonance of "I don't like figuring out weird mechanics" and "setups should be closed, roles need not be standard". IMO, I don't really see a difference in the types of hurdles you'll face in the game.
A non-standard ruleset should probably be complemented with pretty regular roles. This way, people get tried and true stuff to play with that wont break easily, but still play something unusual.
Non-standard roles are going to have the possibility of breaking, players are still going to be desperately trying to figure out some weird shit, and playing against that type of thing is easily just as frustrating as "I don't get the hallway mechanic".
*shrug*
My guess is that either type of non-standard thing can be designed poorly.
A non-standard ruleset should probably be complemented with pretty regular roles. This way, people get tried and true stuff to play with that wont break easily, but still play something unusual.
Non-standard roles are going to have the possibility of breaking, players are still going to be desperately trying to figure out some weird shit, and playing against that type of thing is easily just as frustrating as "I don't get the hallway mechanic".
*shrug*
My guess is that either type of non-standard thing can be designed poorly.
Quoted for new page.
Well, effects of insanity had no actual bearing on the game (though I guess the fear of going insane was there?) and the rest of the stuff was just up to each player to decide what to reveal. Like the book? It's like any PR, I'm not going to step into a game a say my exact power on day 1, the book was the same way, it's just people could be more loose with it because they knew they didn't have it the next day, hell Darryl basically threw it out in the open within the first 48 hours. The second cult being a complete secret is probably the only thing I could see an argument for.
Insanity didn't have that much of an effect so much that it focused discussion on a lot of "What if?" scenarios that ultimately had no purpose.
And yes, the book could be considered a PR, I suppose. I just consider something that has an effect outside of player agency (randomly going to a person each day), then it should be explained a bit more at the outset.
My barometer for "normal" is a werewolf, a seer, a bodyguard, and a bunch of villagers. So yeah, that game was pretty fuckin' out there.
I saw the weirdness of the Cthulu game from its conception. I tried to tell traube/Zatoth to dial it back, but they wouldn't listen. In retrospect, a Cthulu game could have probably only been that chaotic, and while I didn't follow it closely, it doesn't seem like a lot of people hated it.
That's fair, actually. I just haven't seen a weird role in GAFia that made me go "what is this?" so I'm not sure if the rule is necessary. If we want to encourage traditional roles, I'm all for that. My concern was that it'd lead to people "checking the list" to see if a role claim is possible. At that point it's just a semi-open set-up.
I think it was. It was a secret 3 group game with additional neutral roles, there was the possibility of a lot of recruitment (which can lead to huge swings), there was the specter of "insanity" which was a mystery for most of the game, and there was a lot of extra night kill power going around with the book and a vigilante.
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
Closed: a set-up where the power roles, number of power roles, number of mafia, and number of third party players are known only to the game runner and the players themselves are in the dark.
Semi-Open: a set up where the possible power roles of the game are known by the players, but not which ones are being used. The number of mafia is known as well.
Open: a set up where the specific power roles, as well as number of mafia and third party roles are known to all players before the game starts.
Bastard: no one knows what power roles are in use, only that ordinary townie is not one of them. Jesters and death millers(townies who flip scum upon death) will abound plentifully.
Different tastes I guess, I think the only thing I hated about the Cthulhu game is that I was recruitable but that's just a personal thing, just like not liking any role you are dealt which will happen from time to time. I thought the Cthulhu game was near perfect for how much it had going on.
closed = you know no roles going in
open = you know exactly what roles are in the game
semi-open = you know what roles could be in the game
bastard = I hate the moderator
To be fair, at least it seems like most people had fun this season. There were some kinks, but overall I'd say it was pretty successful.
Actually this is a good point, the 5th power of the book was a real shocker power but I think the game could have been better without it there (again, not just because it was used on me), there was never a way for there to be more then 2 kills a night and that's until the vig runs out of bullets, that's not too bad. Both cults couldn't kill on the same night which I think was key for balancing.
Thank you, I also enjoy Tim's bastard definition above.
I thought all 3 games were great this season, obviously I wasn't in the trenches of two of them but from my perspective, I saw no glaring issues with any of them*
*I may have more to say when the final one concludes.
This would be my preference for the main Seasonal games:
0. Post mortem for any needed rules changes, feedback, etc.
1. Figure out who wants to run games in the new season, including theme, restrictions, gimmicks, but do not pick games yet.
2. Post thread in Off-Topic for recruitment purposes, leave it there for X days/weeks.
3. Have all interested players vote on which of the games they would prefer. i.e. if we're going to play 3 games, have them pick 3 from a list.
4. Top 3(or whatever) games get players distributed as evenly as possible among them, leaving some players as replacements.
5. Game Moderators now balance their game with assistance from other chosen moderators and backups.
6. Players may arrange 1:1 trades between games.(This step I care least about, but I don't think it would be a problem
7. Players get assigned roles.
8. Games start.
Once enough players have died, people can host side games like we have been doing, which can ignore some of these rules for expediency, though do try and give players 24-48 hours to show interest. I would also prefer if players stuck to a single game while they're alive, unless it's needed for replacement purposes specifically.
0. Post mortem for any needed rules changes, feedback, etc.
1. Figure out who wants to run games in the new season, including theme, restrictions, gimmicks, but do not pick games yet.
2. Post thread in Off-Topic for recruitment purposes, leave it there for X days/weeks.
3. Have all interested players vote on which of the games they would prefer. i.e. if we're going to play 3 games, have them pick 3 from a list.
4. Top 3(or whatever) games get players distributed as evenly as possible among them, leaving some players as replacements.
5. Game Moderators now balance their game with assistance from other chosen moderators and backups.
6. Players may arrange 1:1 trades between games.(This step I care least about, but I don't think it would be a problem
7. Players get assigned roles.
8. Games start.
Once enough players have died, people can host side games like we have been doing, which can ignore some of these rules for expediency, though do try and give players 24-48 hours to show interest. I would also prefer if players stuck to a single game while they're alive, unless it's needed for replacement purposes specifically.
I would describe traditional werewolf more as like vanilla mafia or "true" normal or something. Normal in forum mafia to me just means not role madness and no mechanics or super crazy roles.
I'm cool with this. I take it we'll have a postmortem thread up after DR ends?
Pff. You didn't even need to fake roleclaim. No one would believe Robin Hood either!
I loved that role and the general reaction when I revealed my real role. What did you call it? The boy that cried Archer?
Yeah, lol
I specifically didn't like the erase thing because "dead person shows their true info" is one of the core mechanics that makes the game tick, in my opinion. Like, it was cute for a second because WOAH THAT IS CRAZY but then you're just kind of like "oh, well we can't really do anything with/about that".
They erased people from a game!
I'll share an anecdote from the first game (which was also my first forum game, and my first "mafia" themed game). It was also my first closed setup game.
While we were playing it, I would do some googling into mafia roles (I'm sure others did, too). You know, trying to guess what people might be based on what typical mafia roles are. We got sidetracked with the whole "I send owls out" thing that was a bunch of bullshit; I never really found anything like that anyway. I did find the Switcher, though, and that did seem more plausible.
Eventually, I claimed Doctor, a fairly common role that happened to be the weird red herring of the game...but that was a very simple and clever play by Crab on the expectation of those standardized roles.
So the anecdote is that I don't think working with the assumption of the common roles is a bad thing at all.
I'm not against deviating from the core set of roles, but my concern is that people wont even start there, and just make a ton of weird, broken stuff (that the mentors then have to go back and reign in).
I would rather people start from vanilla roles and push out from there, than somehow to try make an insane thing work. Tethering role claims to something isn't a bad thing, IMO. Otherwise, we're going to get really bizarre stuff in the near future.
"Bro, I'm a 5 shot Drunk Child who turns Mafia when he witnesses a crime, but also has wings, like that of an angel but also of a demon"
"Uhh...is that legit?"
"I dont' know, let's talk about it for 20 pages"
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
The only thing I can see being an issue would be the voting on games step. If most of us are doing closed set ups, then it would just boil down into voting for flavor and game moderator.
What are your thoughts on traditional roles with untraditional names?
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Co-signed.
Especially the single game part. Maybe I was misreading it, but it felt like the Cthulhu game suffered at a couple of points because people were distracted with side games.
Yeah. I mean, I understand the theory behind WHY we did it, but it does become a distraction.
But man, if my game had had no replacements? Whew.
Kark I didn't follow CoC closely. I agree the erasing thing was lame, but that had more to do with the book mechanic rather than an actual role, correct?
I agree that it was bastard, and I don't want to play those types of games unless I know from the start it's going to be crazy so I don't put too much effort into the game.
I agree that it was bastard, and I don't want to play those types of games unless I know from the start it's going to be crazy so I don't put too much effort into the game.
Never Forever
Member
mm, I hated the erasure
I would've been fine with it killing them both, because then at least they would've flipped
really made me lose enthusiasm for D3, and I definitely think it was part of what so completely and utterly killed the momentum of the game. It was especially bad because Sorian was such an active poster, so not being able to go through his posts was really annoying. We were left in an information black hole.
Cthulhu
Compared to the roles in the Election Mafia thread that seems like a reasonable claim.
I think I like detection roles that look at actions more so than role names (player names are fine), and games where people try to figure out what actions meant. Names are kind of irrelevant to me, especially since I'm more used to Werewolf names. Just seems like flavor.
K, that's what I thought. I'm in the same boat.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
I hated it as a player, but I think it was awesome as a game mechanic. It's not like it crippled us, or anything. I just think it's interesting for a single player's decision to profoundly, but not irreparably, fuck over their own team.
lol
screw you, kitty!
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Not if he knows what's good for him.
Terrabyte20xx
Junior Wrestlemania XXX Champion
Because it is being brought up a bit, I would like to make a quick statement on the book erasure.
Zatoth brought it up during the conceptual phase as a simple double kill with being erased as a flavor and the double kill revealing roles as normal. But when he stated that flavor I introduced the idea that, to fit in with the insanity and Cthulhu stuff that he should just remove the two players from the game and the player list. I figured it would add to the game, and really hit the theme home.
When the time came for it to happen, he PM'd me with second thoughts. I told him to stick with the idea, but that if he really felt like it wasn't that good of an idea, to go ahead and make it a normal double kill. He said he was going to got other moderator's opinions and then he would decide what to do.
I admit that it probably could've really hurt the players more than it did, but it seemed like too good of an idea to pass up.
Zatoth brought it up during the conceptual phase as a simple double kill with being erased as a flavor and the double kill revealing roles as normal. But when he stated that flavor I introduced the idea that, to fit in with the insanity and Cthulhu stuff that he should just remove the two players from the game and the player list. I figured it would add to the game, and really hit the theme home.
When the time came for it to happen, he PM'd me with second thoughts. I told him to stick with the idea, but that if he really felt like it wasn't that good of an idea, to go ahead and make it a normal double kill. He said he was going to got other moderator's opinions and then he would decide what to do.
I admit that it probably could've really hurt the players more than it did, but it seemed like too good of an idea to pass up.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Micro: You have one cow.
Open: You have two cows. Everyone knows you have two cows.
Semi-Open: You have one cow, and one from the following list of animals: sheep, pig, goat, duck.
Mountainous: You have identically cloned cows with absolutely no special characteristics.
Mini Theme: You have one cow which is actually a 1,000 year old demon and thus is perfectly legal.
Theme: You have two cows, but if everyone believes you have a pig and sheepdog you might be able to survive being moo-wn down.
Large theme: You have an alien disguised as a cow, a bull, and a member of PETA.
Bastard game: You have one cow (which doesn't know that it's a cow), a horse that dreams of being a cow, two sheepdogs in a perfect cow disguise, someone that was a cow in a past life, a guy who dies if he doesn't get a drink of milk every day, and cow-worshipping cultist. Incidentally, none of those statements are true.
Role madness: Two cows have you.
Open: You have two cows. Everyone knows you have two cows.
Semi-Open: You have one cow, and one from the following list of animals: sheep, pig, goat, duck.
Mountainous: You have identically cloned cows with absolutely no special characteristics.
Mini Theme: You have one cow which is actually a 1,000 year old demon and thus is perfectly legal.
Theme: You have two cows, but if everyone believes you have a pig and sheepdog you might be able to survive being moo-wn down.
Large theme: You have an alien disguised as a cow, a bull, and a member of PETA.
Bastard game: You have one cow (which doesn't know that it's a cow), a horse that dreams of being a cow, two sheepdogs in a perfect cow disguise, someone that was a cow in a past life, a guy who dies if he doesn't get a drink of milk every day, and cow-worshipping cultist. Incidentally, none of those statements are true.
Role madness: Two cows have you.
Republican madness: Two cows have you, though the cows might actually be dogs and you're not you, but you had artificial memories planted in your head by your cat, which isn't actually your cat, while there is a 50/50 chance it's really all just a simulation by a cow.
I guess my problem was that it really didn't leave us anywhere to go. Neuromancer got to pull the ultimate trigger, which was certainly an interesting choice, but then we were just left to pick up the pieces with no context for what had happened. My initial moment of "hmm, that player count seems a little low" -> "GASP they're gone!" was a cool little thing, but after that it wasn't like "oh man that's some crazy info! Here's what we do now!" or "boy *player name* sure was wrong with those reads!" that generates discussion after a normal flip. It was just an "Oh. Uh, well where were we?"
Can I hold on to this one for next time I'm about to be lynched?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I do think that some of the later games had synergy problems. I'm absolutely not against unusual mechanics and I think you need them to spice up gameplay, but you need to make sure the entire game is designed around them. Trying to have a tonne of separate interesting mechanics in one game is asking for trouble. The document I gave out is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGbeK1Nk2_FuzUQIZyrllRbrM6Xy_bn9lowFQK5wWXc/edit?usp=sharing
and I've gone back and highlighted a part I think I'm going to expand because it deserves stressing.
My first game I did here was definitely not normal. Lacking both a cop and a doctor, especially in such a large game, took some designing. There were things I would have done differently - I forgot how much mafia struggle in very new communities; the mafia team should probably have had even 2 more players - but the twist of just omitting the common and reliable roles was enough for me.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGbeK1Nk2_FuzUQIZyrllRbrM6Xy_bn9lowFQK5wWXc/edit?usp=sharing
and I've gone back and highlighted a part I think I'm going to expand because it deserves stressing.
My first game I did here was definitely not normal. Lacking both a cop and a doctor, especially in such a large game, took some designing. There were things I would have done differently - I forgot how much mafia struggle in very new communities; the mafia team should probably have had even 2 more players - but the twist of just omitting the common and reliable roles was enough for me.
Royal_Flush
Member
afaik:
Open - All roles in play are kown
Semi-open - A pool where the roles in play were chosen from is known
Closed - The roles aren't known (what we do here)
Bastard - Huge wtf-fuck-up mainly for the amusement of the mod and the spectators.
Edit: Oh well... Another case of "oops, there was a new page?!"
Getting strange looks for laughing at work. THANKS CRAB!
Yeah. I didn't have enough in my game. The missions themselves were pretty benign, but I really should have had a few more roles that interacted across the mechanic. As it was, Burbeting's was the only one that really did anything with them.
Oh, to me an open game is knowing everything except who got which roles.
Semi-open is knowing what roles are possible, but not in what quantities.
Closed is having no idea what roles are available.
Those 3 are mutually exclusive from each other. Any of them can additionally be a role madness or bastard game.
Role madness just means there are no ordinary players. Everyone has an ability, even if it's just passive.
What you consider Bastard is personal opinion to some degree, and you can have bastard roles without it being a Bastard game. Some examples are any time the info the mod provides is false, i.e. a miller who gets a role PM saying they're ordinary town. Alignment conversions are generally a Bastard move. Role changes are a Bastard move, i.e. a doctor suddenly becomes a SK after failing to save X players. Also any roles that change the fundamental way you play, i.e. Jesters. Crab's first game didn't have any bastard elements, really. The closest was probably the dual sleepwalkers. Star Wars didn't really have Bastard mechanics either, the investigation immune Hutt my role might have been the closest things. Archer had a Framer that could be considered bastard. Cthulhu has lots of Bastard elements, to the point that it could be argued as a Bastard game. You had alignment switches, multiple teams, deaths without role reveal, hidden mechanics, RNG(I think?), and maybe more. I won't comment on Danganronpa, NX, or Election2016 while they're ongoing. Overall, we should avoid Bastard games most of the time. Cthulhu seemed to work out pretty well, but they can go bad very easily.
Note that semi-open setups can help eliminate the bastard nature of some roles. If you KNOW there's a Jester in the game, it's not nearly as annoying, for example.
Semi-open is knowing what roles are possible, but not in what quantities.
Closed is having no idea what roles are available.
Those 3 are mutually exclusive from each other. Any of them can additionally be a role madness or bastard game.
Role madness just means there are no ordinary players. Everyone has an ability, even if it's just passive.
What you consider Bastard is personal opinion to some degree, and you can have bastard roles without it being a Bastard game. Some examples are any time the info the mod provides is false, i.e. a miller who gets a role PM saying they're ordinary town. Alignment conversions are generally a Bastard move. Role changes are a Bastard move, i.e. a doctor suddenly becomes a SK after failing to save X players. Also any roles that change the fundamental way you play, i.e. Jesters. Crab's first game didn't have any bastard elements, really. The closest was probably the dual sleepwalkers. Star Wars didn't really have Bastard mechanics either, the investigation immune Hutt my role might have been the closest things. Archer had a Framer that could be considered bastard. Cthulhu has lots of Bastard elements, to the point that it could be argued as a Bastard game. You had alignment switches, multiple teams, deaths without role reveal, hidden mechanics, RNG(I think?), and maybe more. I won't comment on Danganronpa, NX, or Election2016 while they're ongoing. Overall, we should avoid Bastard games most of the time. Cthulhu seemed to work out pretty well, but they can go bad very easily.
Note that semi-open setups can help eliminate the bastard nature of some roles. If you KNOW there's a Jester in the game, it's not nearly as annoying, for example.