• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

Status
Not open for further replies.
excellent suggestions, Griss. I actually have to gimp myself in order to have fun with this game too. I never use the tranq, and I don't use my main weapon until I can steal one off a guard or something. I run around with c4 and maybe some mines, that's it.

Nice idea on getting more rewards if you don't go around fultoning everything like a maniac. Like maybe more legendary soldiers volunteer for you if you do a clean, sneaky playthru without going nuclear or something
 
This is because, imo, the fulton damn near ruins the core gameplay.

Encounters with tanks and armor should be thrilling, but the fulton reduces them to 'crates i have to sneak behind'. Leaving a bunch of guards asleep as you make your way through a base should be a worrying thing, as they can be found or wake up. Not if I suck them through a wormhole! This, in particular, means there's little reason to play non-stealth, no advantage to it. If you tranq and extract, the guy is as good as 'dead'. Better, even, as the body's completely gone.

What's worse is that it turns your goal from being infiltrating a place to clearing it out. Snake goes from being a secret-agent-type to being Luigi with his vacuum. Hoover it all up, Snake! He truly is a phantom like Skullface, that guy's work was cleanup too.

All of this would be a little more bearable if Mother Base was any good and your efforts at hoovering soldiers and vehicles meant anything. But in the end, no. It's just a numbers game (hoover up enough guys, watch your level go up, game takes care of sorting them) with a shitty deployment mode stolen from AC: Black Flack hacked on to it, and nothing interesting on Mother Base on the ground.

What it should have been:
-Not taking the fulton means you get one more weapon. Risk / reward.
-Each platform on Mother Base holds only 10-20 guys. Each is important.
-You get 2-4 fultons at a time rather than fucking 48. You actually have to save your fultons for the very best recruits, and searching them out actually becomes fun. Getting 2/4 guys per mission is enough to fill your base across the main story due to the reduced personnel limits.
-You can't fulton tanks. Destroying a tank makes it available for development at Mother Base to make up for this.

This would have, in my opinion, solved a huge amount of my problems with the base gameplay. I remember the first time the fulton was shown, I was pretty upset. GZ worked great without it; I didn't like Peace Walker; I forsaw some of these gameplay issues. When I finally started playing TPP I didn't mind it at all. But by the time you get to the second half of the game the flaws are obvious.

And to add to that, I just find the idea of 'magicking' soldiers away on a special balloon to be really, really stupid. MGS is full of stupid stuff, stuff I like. But that stuff usually stays away from the core gameplay loop. Here it's a key part of it.

This. This, this, this. The fulton was my biggest worry about this game pre-release... and it really ruins the game.

I want a New Game + mode that removes the fulton completely and allows me to repeat every mission, cutscene, side-op without the constant nagging in the back of my head to scan every single fucking soldier and fulton out any good ones.

The fulton and base building elements really drag down the gameplay for me, and once I finally get them all to fucking rank 60, I think I'll enjoy the game more.

Yeah, no I know that. Did a bunch of those but can the battle gear be deployed in any of those ?

After you get that message about the Battle Gear, there is the first Battle Gear specific mission at the top of the list that requires it. It looks almost identical to any of the other deployment missions, but it has a yellow dot to its side.
 
Except for the part where he does become an absolute villain. Like you'd have to be absolutely delusional to think someone who wants to set the world into eternal warfare, recruits child soldiers to perpetuate that warfare, kidnaps scientists against their will, builds giant death robots and threatens the world with nukes is somehow a good person or even a gray villain.

Like that is some crazy ass rationalisation.

Are you describing Metal Gear 2 or Peace Walker? Because that's my entire point. All of that more or less happens in PW to set up BB's view on these things. It's gray area, as we only had Solid Snake's perspective, without the benefit of performance or voice to aid the plot of MG2. MG1 he was much more of just a villain, though, so this change evens out the bar for all those games.

Additionally, due to the magic of retcon, BB's aim in MG2 is likely a war against the world that is run by Cipher's Patriots. (You have 4 and PW to thank for that. V evens out MG1 as a way to better pave the way for MG2 in the context of the entire series as a whole)
 
But it isn't open world done right, not at all. There is almost nothing this game benefits from being open world. GZ wasn't open world and it used the same mechanics, the reason camp omega is fondly remembered is because it was one super well designed area that was a sandbox. MGSV just has a SHIT TON of nothing between it's fun sandboxes.

In the 130+ hours of play time I loaded specifically into free roam mode twice.
Once to pick flowers, and another time to get resources before I realized it was easier to just queue up for a story mission to get them.

You really notice it when you have mission areas that are confined to basically one area like the airport. Sure you're given a big sandbox to play with but very little of it actually has toys.

I'd rather the areas have been scaled down and made more interesting.

Also the fact that you can't call in a chopper and have to fly you to another drop zone is ridiculous since you can do it in mother base but you cant in the actual maps.

I think people are putting too much stock in nitpicking optional modes. Free Mode should be available in these sorts of games. It would be glaring if it didn't. And I'm sure a lot of people have fun wandering with D-Walker from point-to-point and finish off side op mission (I sure did).

The real reason GZ was fondly remembered was because people paid 40 bucks for a tiny map. So they played it, and played it. We learned a lot of the game mechanics for the first time there. It's not particularly designed better than something like Lapis Lake or the Wakh Sind Barracks (which has a lot of verticality).

I particularly love the airport. I also like the swamp areas in Africa, the central base camp in Afghanistan, and the old temple ruins. There are tons of places with nooks and crannies and secret paths. There's a lot of attention to detail to the larger maps. I love how you can climb to the rooftops of almost every building in the game. Yes, there is a no man's land in between these areas, but for me it adds to the realism, and secondly, when you enter a mission that needs you to follow multiple convoys, covering that ground can be fun.

This type of open world is much more appreciated than something like MGS4, where you can miss out on a lot of details and alternate routes. Even though the maps are large, there is just the right degree of intimacy. It's a lot better than GTAV which also suffers from large stretches of nothingness.

I hear you on being dropped off another point on the map. But I also completely agree with the design choice as well. There is no other option to make people have a break, listen to the tapes, get invested in their custom weapons and emblems. Kojima even said: "During MGSV adjustment phase in the development, I tested various types of setting & play style over and over. But my favourable way is to take a break, set up MB, listen to the tape in the chopper after mission/SIDEOPS. So that you get used to the rhythm of play."

I'm absolutely in love with the meta game in MGSV. It's the best implementation of grinding I have seen. In a sense, it's an open form way of levelling up whatever you, the player, wants. So many things to choose from, and so many things to make a priority. I absolutely deplore the concept of using a shitty weapon to unlock five forms of that shitty weapon, to eventually unlock the shotgun you really, really just wanted in the first place.

MGSV does so much right, that it's my first 10/10 of the year.

Edit: And I don't know why people are hating on the fulton. The magic of this game is that you can make it as challenging as possible for yourself. Unequip it, record your mission and share it with the world. We're living in an age where people seek out this type of content. Almost everyone I know fultons the shit out of everything. If there were any less than 48, then they'd be pissed. It's fun. And there's a handful of people I know who don't use fultons, and only equip three things. They're enthralling to watch. The game should be played to what suits you, not with some arbitrary limitations that forces everyone to play the same and with the same difficulty. I've never, ever been able to wrap my head around people who complain about accessibilities. It's the equivalent of someone choosing "easy mode" and wondering why there's no challenge. The game is long enough for you to experiment in almost any shape or form. And it speaks more on how you're playing than the developers desire to provide "options."
 
This is because, imo, the fulton damn near ruins the core gameplay.

Encounters with tanks and armor should be thrilling, but the fulton reduces them to 'crates i have to sneak behind'. Leaving a bunch of guards asleep as you make your way through a base should be a worrying thing, as they can be found or wake up. Not if I suck them through a wormhole! This, in particular, means there's little reason to play non-stealth, no advantage to it. If you tranq and extract, the guy is as good as 'dead'. Better, even, as the body's completely gone.

What's worse is that it turns your goal from being infiltrating a place to clearing it out. Snake goes from being a secret-agent-type to being Luigi with his vacuum. Hoover it all up, Snake! He truly is a phantom like Skullface, that guy's work was cleanup too.

All of this would be a little more bearable if Mother Base was any good and your efforts at hoovering soldiers and vehicles meant anything. But in the end, no. It's just a numbers game (hoover up enough guys, watch your level go up, game takes care of sorting them) with a shitty deployment mode stolen from AC: Black Flack hacked on to it, and nothing interesting on Mother Base on the ground.

What it should have been:
-Not taking the fulton means you get one more weapon. Risk / reward.
-Each platform on Mother Base holds only 10-20 guys. Each is important.
-You get 2-4 fultons at a time rather than fucking 48. You actually have to save your fultons for the very best recruits, and searching them out actually becomes fun. Getting 2/4 guys per mission is enough to fill your base across the main story due to the reduced personnel limits.
-You can't fulton tanks. Destroying a tank makes it available for development at Mother Base to make up for this.

This would have, in my opinion, solved a huge amount of my problems with the base gameplay. I remember the first time the fulton was shown, I was pretty upset. GZ worked great without it; I didn't like Peace Walker; I forsaw some of these gameplay issues. When I finally started playing TPP I didn't mind it at all. But by the time you get to the second half of the game the flaws are obvious.

And to add to that, I just find the idea of 'magicking' soldiers away on a special balloon to be really, really stupid. MGS is full of stupid stuff, stuff I like. But that stuff usually stays away from the core gameplay loop. Here it's a key part of it.

Great post, great points. MGS V sabotaged itself.
 
I think people are putting too much stock in nitpicking optional modes. Free Mode should be available in these sorts of games. It would be glaring if it didn't. And I'm sure a lot of people have fun wandering with D-Walker from point-to-point and finish off side op mission (I sure did).

The real reason GZ was fondly remembered was because people paid 40 bucks for a tiny map. So they played it, and played it. We learned a lot of the game mechanics for the first time there. It's not particularly designed better than something like Lapis Lake or the Wakh Sind Barracks (which has a lot of verticality).

Wrong on both counts.

Ground Zeroes didn't waste my time. Phantom Pain's world mainly serves to slow me down.
 
Like that is some crazy ass rationalisation.

Metal Gear fans go to crazy ass lengths to somehow make the plot of the entire series not shit. It's better to just ignore it :(

I want a New Game + mode that removes the fulton completely and allows me to repeat every mission, cutscene, side-op without the constant nagging in the back of my head to scan every single fucking soldier and fulton out any good ones.

I second this a huge amount as well, and I think it's a big reason why I prefer Ground Zeroes a crap ton more than Phantom Pain, which I don't think I'm going to finish for boredom.

It's impossible to enjoy the sneaking through a base while all you can think about is having to scan everyone and the best way to hoover everyone up. A tank isn't a dangerous enemy anymore, it's just another thing to be collected as you jog through.

So many lethal guns, and air support options, and you can't use them when the going gets rough in case you incinerate a guy with high stats and can't get the gear you need.

Mad disappointed with this game :(
 
"From FOX, two phantoms were born"
JNlc1ST.png
 
Ok, but so what? No one is disputing that. Any competent game will give you gameplay highs. It's about those unique moments that stick with you, not just because they're fun in that instant.

What are you talking about? Do you really think cinematics are the only unique moments a game can craft?

Classic Mario games don't have a ton of "unique" moments, but they're still fondly remembered as some of the best games of all time.
 
I don't know, I'd rather vacuum enemy soldiers than having to worry about those I forgot to hide.

But that's because I like light stealth. Hardcore stealth, never being detected, never tranq-ing anyone or carefully hiding bodies isn't for me, especially in such expansive environments and with so many guards patrolling the area.
 
I second this a huge amount as well, and I think it's a big reason why I prefer Ground Zeroes a crap ton more than Phantom Pain, which I don't think I'm going to finish for boredom.

It's impossible to enjoy the sneaking through a base while all you can think about is having to scan everyone and the best way to hoover everyone up. A tank isn't a dangerous enemy anymore, it's just another thing to be collected as you jog through.

So many lethal guns, and air support options, and you can't use them when the going gets rough in case you incinerate a guy with high stats and can't get the gear you need.

Mad disappointed with this game :(

Just kill everyone and make up the difference in deployment options and volunteers like I did. I played super lethal and used bombardments and choppers and lethal guns and grenades like hell. It's totally viable. You don't NEED all those soldiers unless you want to play optimally.
 
Except for the part where he does become an absolute villain. Like you'd have to be absolutely delusional to think someone who wants to set the world into eternal warfare, recruits child soldiers to perpetuate that warfare, kidnaps scientists against their will, builds giant death robots and threatens the world with nukes to somehow be a good person or even a gray villain.

Like that is some crazy ass rationalisation.

That's the crazy part. People are like "He doesn't do anything evil in this game!" and it's like, what are you talking about?

The game just doesn't frame any of his actions as evil, because it's from his perspective. If you take a step back and think about what you're doing through the whole game, he does a ton of evil things.

Heck, one of the main avenues of progression in this game is kidnapping enemy soldiers and locking them in a brig until they agree to work for you.
 
This is because, imo, the fulton damn near ruins the core gameplay.

Encounters with tanks and armor should be thrilling, but the fulton reduces them to 'crates i have to sneak behind'. Leaving a bunch of guards asleep as you make your way through a base should be a worrying thing, as they can be found or wake up. Not if I suck them through a wormhole! This, in particular, means there's little reason to play non-stealth, no advantage to it. If you tranq and extract, the guy is as good as 'dead'. Better, even, as the body's completely gone.

What's worse is that it turns your goal from being infiltrating a place to clearing it out. Snake goes from being a secret-agent-type to being Luigi with his vacuum. Hoover it all up, Snake! He truly is a phantom like Skullface, that guy's work was cleanup too.

All of this would be a little more bearable if Mother Base was any good and your efforts at hoovering soldiers and vehicles meant anything. But in the end, no. It's just a numbers game (hoover up enough guys, watch your level go up, game takes care of sorting them) with a shitty deployment mode stolen from AC: Black Flack hacked on to it, and nothing interesting on Mother Base on the ground.

What it should have been:
-Not taking the fulton means you get one more weapon. Risk / reward.
-Each platform on Mother Base holds only 10-20 guys. Each is important.
-You get 2-4 fultons at a time rather than fucking 48. You actually have to save your fultons for the very best recruits, and searching them out actually becomes fun. Getting 2/4 guys per mission is enough to fill your base across the main story due to the reduced personnel limits.
-You can't fulton tanks. Destroying a tank makes it available for development at Mother Base to make up for this.

This would have, in my opinion, solved a huge amount of my problems with the base gameplay. I remember the first time the fulton was shown, I was pretty upset. GZ worked great without it; I didn't like Peace Walker; I forsaw some of these gameplay issues. When I finally started playing TPP I didn't mind it at all. But by the time you get to the second half of the game the flaws are obvious.

And to add to that, I just find the idea of 'magicking' soldiers away on a special balloon to be really, really stupid. MGS is full of stupid stuff, stuff I like. But that stuff usually stays away from the core gameplay loop. Here it's a key part of it.
two things wrong with the bolded

The deployment mechanic in the AssCreed games actually first appeared in Brotherhood, a November 2010 game, and not Black Flag

Peace Walker had the same system that TPP uses regarding deployments and timers and such. When did that come out, you ask? Oh, April 2010.

The rest sound like gripes because the game wasn't what you thought it would be. This game was described as "Peace Walker done big" quite a bit before launch.

Last, here's the amount of people that at gunpoint obligated you to use the wormhole:

You can play this game anyway you like. Dont wish to fulton tanks? dont. Don't wish to fulton anyone not worth fultoning? Do what i did: bullet to the head, hide the body

cmon now, if you want that game you described then go play Blacklist instead. talk about having weird expectations. What you want is like a not-metal-gear
 
Went to rescue Huey, and AI bot talks to you if stand in front it. It's all "Jack, is that you?" or something. Also there are photos everyone on it, including Strangelove holding kid Otacon.
 
Im seeing a lot of praise for the open world that i just dont understand. Having a open areas to sneak around is nice, but the literal open world design is absolute trash. The world is dead and basically functions as an interactive load screen between camps.

Afghanistan especially is just awful to go through
 
Metal Gear fans go to crazy ass lengths to somehow make the plot of the entire series not shit. It's better to just ignore it :(



I second this a huge amount as well, and I think it's a big reason why I prefer Ground Zeroes a crap ton more than Phantom Pain, which I don't think I'm going to finish for boredom.

It's impossible to enjoy the sneaking through a base while all you can think about is having to scan everyone and the best way to hoover everyone up. A tank isn't a dangerous enemy anymore, it's just another thing to be collected as you jog through.

So many lethal guns, and air support options, and you can't use them when the going gets rough in case you incinerate a guy with high stats and can't get the gear you need.

Mad disappointed with this game :(

You guys are being a little dramatic. Fulton doesn't ruin the game at all. But they should have reduced your limit for sure. But I've had tons of amazing moments getting my eye on a good soldier and trying to stealth capture him. It's like a whole new game within any given mission. It's just not a pure stealth game at all and it shouldn't be seen as one. It's stealth action through and through. And action is completely viable cause there's other ways of building motherbase.
 
Im seeing a lot of praise for the open world that i just dont understand. Having a open areas to sneak around is nice, but the literal open world design is absolute trash. The world is dead and basically functions as an interactive load screen between camps.

Afghanistan especially is just awful to go through

You can do multiple missions at once and really explore the map like i did. Take up 3 Side ops near one another and enjoy the adventure.

the open world stuff in the main missions is a bit less evident, sure, but the idea of approaching a base from a distance and sneaking your way to it is something I've always wanted to play. And this is the only game that really nails that feeling and doesn't feel gamey, like far cry 3-4 do for example
 
- It's the missing link to MG1. We have a clear roadmap of what happened. By changing the events of MG1, BB now has a more consistently gray character from PW to MG2 to MGS4. It also fills in the middle beats that make the turns in Paramedic, Sigint, and Zero's stories make sense. We got information on what their evolution took from comic relief to characters that could believably create the patriots system. If you play 4 after V, 4's story threads, down to Ocelot's self hypnosis, feel like less of an ass-pull now, even though it took a retcon 7 years later to fix the emotionally deadness of the graveyard scene ending. It now MEANS something. Big Boss reclaiming Zero at the end of 4 now has some meaning. (I also enjoy the idea that Zero's final hiding spot was near The Boss's grave)

The problem with that sentiment is that it not only makes the narrative more convoluted, but goes out of its way to rationalize questions that didn't need answering.

At the end MGS4, Zero's condition had a pretty compelling reason, even if it was never spelled out specifically. The man behind one of the greatest legacies in that universe was felled not by an antagonist or competing group, but by his own age. His fate (being doomed to languish as a vegetable for years) was compelling enough on its own. Now we have some reframed sequence of events where a guy we'd never heard of in other games poisoned him with a special parasite that took his mind, and that he really loved Big Boss.

Same goes for MG1. It's doubtful that there were many (if any) people were chomping at the bit to find out how Big Boss survived that game. Now it's a long, rambling tale that requires a body double, the actual lead (Big Boss) fucking off for years while said double handles a dangerous and global threat, and striking large parts of MG1/2 from canon status.

It also goes for MGS3. The notion that the comic relief support team not only becomes near-singlehandedly responsible for all the shit that goes down in the rest of the franchise doesn't get any better the more it's explained. It's still pretty damn stupid.

If you interrogate soldiers they'll mark your map where they hid a diamond, every time you upgrade mother base more diamonds become available to hunt, they also respawn up to a certain point (It's not an infinity hunting game) Interrogating my dudes, marking the diamonds on my map, then figuring out how to get them was a fun diversion to the shooty drivey funtimes in the other 2 maps. It gave me something to do between missions that brought in GMP. Hunting for diamonds, felt like Knuckles in Sonic Adventure or something. It created these cool puzzle game style scenarios, like tomb raider or something but on mother base.

That's filler. There's a difference between holding up your guards for minor info and a major plot arc that ties into the mindset of the main character.
 
two things wrong with the bolded

The deployment mechanic in the AssCreed games actually first appeared in Brotherhood, a November 2010 game, and not Black Flag

Peace Walker had the same system that TPP uses regarding deployments and timers and such. When did that come out, you ask? Oh, April 2010.

The rest sound like gripes because the game wasn't what you thought it would be. This game was described as "Peace Walker done big" quite a bit before launch.

Last, here's the amount of people that at gunpoint obligated you to use the wormhole:

You can play this game anyway you like. Dont wish to fulton tanks? dont. Don't wish to fulton anyone not worth fultoning? Do what i did: bullet to the head, hide the body

cmon now, if you want that game then go play Blacklist instead. talk about having weird expectations

Right?! I already wrote some points, but instead of editing it to be any longer I'd like to add that I personally love, LOVE the idea of not being extremely penalized for a) taking too long in a mission and b) deciding to kill everyone. There should be no fear to be had in getting an awful score. I have gotten S ranks by killing almost everyone, as well as taking 55 minutes to finish a mission with perfect stealth.
 
two things wrong with the bolded

The deployment mechanic in the AssCreed games actually first appeared in Brotherhood, a November 2010 game, and not Black Flag

Peace Walker had the same system that TPP uses regarding deployments and timers and such. When did that come out, you ask? Oh, April 2010.

The rest sound like gripes because the game wasn't what you thought it would be. This game was described as "Peace Walker done big" quite a bit before launch.

Last, here's the amount of people that at gunpoint obligated you to use the wormhole:

You can play this game anyway you like. Dont wish to fulton tanks? dont. Don't wish to fulton anyone not worth fultoning? Do what i did: bullet to the head, hide the body

cmon now, if you want that game then go play Blacklist instead. talk about having weird expectations

I'm feeling like it was just people wanted MGS5, not MGSV. (more of the same thing as last time, not something completely different??) I want MGSV2.

And yeah like...people can just replay the game. You can take whatever you want, even no fultons. You don't prevent your game progress by doing this even, so go and do it if that's your complaint! There's nothing forcing you to, only boons.
 
I understand the arguement, "I've never been invested in a game as much as MGSV, I've put x amount of hours"... But I've put 300 hours in, I've plantinumed it, I've played FOB... I'm done.
There's nothing new to this world and there's zero narrative for me wanting to revisit it. I've been thinking about playing Ground Zeroes Adrain until MGO.
Truth? I wish MGS4 was back on PSNOW, I've been wanting to replay again, and I've finished that game like 8 times.
 
This is because, imo, the fulton damn near ruins the core gameplay.

Encounters with tanks and armor should be thrilling, but the fulton reduces them to 'crates i have to sneak behind'. Leaving a bunch of guards asleep as you make your way through a base should be a worrying thing, as they can be found or wake up. Not if I suck them through a wormhole! This, in particular, means there's little reason to play non-stealth, no advantage to it. If you tranq and extract, the guy is as good as 'dead'. Better, even, as the body's completely gone.

What's worse is that it turns your goal from being infiltrating a place to clearing it out. Snake goes from being a secret-agent-type to being Luigi with his vacuum. Hoover it all up, Snake! He truly is a phantom like Skullface, that guy's work was cleanup too.

All of this would be a little more bearable if Mother Base was any good and your efforts at hoovering soldiers and vehicles meant anything. But in the end, no. It's just a numbers game (hoover up enough guys, watch your level go up, game takes care of sorting them) with a shitty deployment mode stolen from AC: Black Flack hacked on to it, and nothing interesting on Mother Base on the ground.

What it should have been:
-Not taking the fulton means you get one more weapon. Risk / reward.
-Each platform on Mother Base holds only 10-20 guys. Each is important.
-You get 2-4 fultons at a time rather than fucking 48. You actually have to save your fultons for the very best recruits, and searching them out actually becomes fun. Getting 2/4 guys per mission is enough to fill your base across the main story due to the reduced personnel limits.
-You can't fulton tanks. Destroying a tank makes it available for development at Mother Base to make up for this.

This would have, in my opinion, solved a huge amount of my problems with the base gameplay. I remember the first time the fulton was shown, I was pretty upset. GZ worked great without it; I didn't like Peace Walker; I forsaw some of these gameplay issues. When I finally started playing TPP I didn't mind it at all. But by the time you get to the second half of the game the flaws are obvious.

And to add to that, I just find the idea of 'magicking' soldiers away on a special balloon to be really, really stupid. MGS is full of stupid stuff, stuff I like. But that stuff usually stays away from the core gameplay loop. Here it's a key part of it.

Amazing post, you really brought up a lot of great points regarding how the fultoning kinda breaks the game in how it's always useful and the easiest way of doing things.
 
two things wrong with the bolded

The deployment mechanic in the AssCreed games actually first appeared in Brotherhood, a November 2010 game, and not Black Flag

Peace Walker had the same system that TPP uses regarding deployments and timers and such. When did that come out, you ask? Oh, April 2010.

The rest sound like gripes because the game wasn't what you thought it would be. This game was described as "Peace Walker done big" quite a bit before launch.

Last, here's the amount of people that at gunpoint obligated you to use the wormhole:

You can play this game anyway you life. Dont wish to fulton tanks? dont. Don't wish to fulton anyone not worth fultoning? Do what i did: bullet to the head, hide the body

cmon now, if you want that game then go play Blacklist instead. talk about having weird expectations
None of this post makes the design okay. Metal Gear doesn't need extraction-focused gameplay. Peace Walking introduced a bad mechanic. The commander of a militia isn't supposed to be recruiter numero uno, that shit should be done by a fucking recruiting officer.

If I want advanced weapons in the game, unfortunately, I DO have to play the game with constant forethought of who to extract, because many of the most fun items require ~40 in almost every base rank, and the best items require high 50s or outright rank 60. I've put 130+ hours into this game and I'm barely scratching 50s on some of my units.

The wormhole doesn't improve any element of the broken extraction system, it merely allows you to do it in more types of situations - bad weather, under buildings, etc. The broken system is very much there.

That broken system is compounded by the sheer ridiculously high number of staff you have to personally recruit. I'm nearing 1000 troops, and I've seen people online via FOBs that have 2000. It's disgusting, unnecessary, and detrimental to gameplay for reasons already listed by Griss and myself.

Regarding deployments, I don't really care. It's harmless in TPP because it's not needlessly made necessary like the extractions are or how it was in PW.
 
The problem with that sentiment is that it not only makes the narrative more convoluted, but goes out of its way to rationalize questions that didn't need answering.

At the end MGS4, Zero's condition had a pretty compelling reason, even if it was never spelled out specifically. The man behind one of the greatest legacies in that universe was felled not by an antagonist or competing group, but by his own age. His fate (being doomed to languish as a vegetable for years) was compelling enough on its own. Now we have some reframed sequence of events where a guy we'd never heard of in other games poisoned him with a special parasite that took his mind, and that he really loved Big Boss.

Same goes for MG1. It's doubtful that there were many (if any) people were chomping at the bit to find out how Big Boss survived that game. Now it's a long, rambling tale that requires a body double, the actual lead (Big Boss) fucking off for years while said double handles a dangerous and global threat, and striking large parts of MG1/2 from canon status.

It also goes for MGS3. The notion that the comic relief support team not only becomes near-singlehandedly responsible for all the shit that goes down in the rest of the franchise doesn't get any better the more it's explained. It's still pretty damn stupid.

Convoluted narrative? Oh you mean almost the entire series? (And it's not so much questions that needed answers, but narrative shortcuts that needed connecting tissue, rather than the rushed OH BY THE WAY that we got out of 4's mess of explanations. 4's a better game because of V, now)

Yeah it was a reason enough, but I didn't care about it from a story or character perspective because Zero WASNT a character. The twist didn't matter and felt like it was in service of "undoing Fox Die 2", now it's in service of characters, and feels like an endpoint for the two trilogies. The SS trilogy of 1 2 and 4, and the BB trilogy of 3 PW and V. It services more now than it ever did before. Zero's former place in the world means something now instead of being a convenient character to pull for a twist.

I felt MG1's story was paper thin and made Big Boss seem really crappy. MG2 was more interesting for me coming out of 3. I was one of those people that WOULD think about the relation of the canon of MG1 and MG2 compared to the other games, rather than write it off.

I feel it gets better because it humanizes them into people, rather than gags. They're people that made a big mistake when they gained an embarrassment of riches. That's better. It's an improvement because now they have a narrative arc, rather than a sudden shift.

That's filler. There's a difference between holding up your guards for minor info and a major plot arc that ties into the mindset of the main character.

I was answering a question about why I enjoyed doing it. What you think doesn't change anything because I was enjoying it for the reason I stated. You're allowed to not like doing that.

Completely BS argument.

It's like if I complained a game was too short and you said "no one's forcing you to push the analog sick all the way forward."

Hyperbole and nothing else. Capturing vs not capturing is a choice you can make. It's why you can't fulton dead bodies. It's why you're constantly encouraged to mix things up and try different tactics the whole way through.
 
Are you describing Metal Gear 2 or Peace Walker? Because that's my entire point. All of that more or less happens in PW to set up BB's view on these things. It's gray area, as we only had Solid Snake's perspective, without the benefit of performance or voice to aid the plot of MG2. MG1 he was much more of just a villain, though, so this change evens out the bar for all those games.

Additionally, due to the magic of retcon, BB's aim in MG2 is likely a war against the world that is run by Cipher's Patriots. (You have 4 and PW to thank for that. V evens out MG1 as a way to better pave the way for MG2 in the context of the entire series as a whole)
They don't more or less happen in Peacewalker. They're not equivalent scenarios.

Saving Chico from the CIA is not the same as recruiting child soldiers and sending them out to war.

Huey and Strangelove willingly join Big Boss. You could argue that the Fulton system is him kidnapping people but it'd be a pretty weak argument when it's just a gameplay mechanic to get items. Most of the people you Fulton will immediately work for you without question and very rarely do they get sent to the Brig.

Huey is the one who wanted to build Zeke and Miller is the one who wanted the nuke using the excuse that the radiation was poisoning the river. They both convinced Big Boss but these aren't actions that Big Boss actively chose to undertake under his own volition.

Big Boss was actively trying to stop nuclear holocaust while in Metal Gear 1 and 2 he is threatening the world with it.

We have Big Boss' perspective, he's the one who straight up tells you what his goals are in the MSX games. There's nothing gray about what he was doing.

And even he had the reason that he was taking out the Patriots, which was Solidus and Liquid Ocelot's reasons for doing things too - that doesn't make him a good person. He is still a villain.

MGSV doesn't do anything to pave the way for the MSX games. It doesn't actually show Big Boss doing things that would lead him to being a villain and it doesn't show the Medic losing his mind either when he's a big ol' goody twoshoes in MGSV.
 
Completely BS argument.

It's like if I complained a game was too short and you said "no one's forcing you to push the analog sick all the way forward."

Thank you, I'll use this analogy from now if people bring up this excuse that you should intentionally drag out your gametime.
 
MGSV doesn't do anything to pave the way for the MSX games. It doesn't actually show Big Boss doing things that would lead him to being a villain and it doesn't show the Medic losing his mind either when he's a big ol' goody twoshoes in MGSV.

But the game showed this bad boy at the end.

57921531_bc33b46b02_b.jpg


Obviously paving the way to the MSX game. Literally.

im just messing with ya :)

Oh yeah where the fuck is Chico during this whole game.

Chico died! LOL during the chopper crash. They talk about it in one of hte tapes.

image.php
 
That's the crazy part. People are like "He doesn't do anything evil in this game!" and it's like, what are you talking about?

The game just doesn't frame any of his actions as evil, because it's from his perspective. If you take a step back and think about what you're doing through the whole game, he does a ton of evil things.

Heck, one of the main avenues of progression in this game is kidnapping enemy soldiers and locking them in a brig until they agree to work for you.
Like what? Teaching little kids how to read and write and not letting them fight? Sending animals to preservations? Stopping the world from nuclear holocaust and parasitic outbreak?

Sending people to the brig would be poignant if it wasn't just done in a menu and if most people fultoned didn't just automatically work for you anyway.

There are inklings of evil things that could sprout out from this, but he doesn't actively do anything evil.
 
None of this post makes the design okay. Metal Gear doesn't need extraction-focused gameplay. Peace Walking introduced a bad mechanic. The commander of a militia isn't supposed to be recruiter numero uno, that shit should be done by a fucking recruiting officer.

If I want advanced weapons in the game, unfortunately, I DO have to play the game with constant forethought of who to extract, because many of the most fun items require ~40 in almost every base rank, and the best items require high 50s or outright rank 60. I've put 130+ hours into this game and I'm barely scratching 50s on some of my units.

The wormhole doesn't improve any element of the broken extraction system, it merely allows you to do it in more types of situations - bad weather, under buildings, etc. The broken system is very much there.

That broken system is compounded by the sheer ridiculously high number of staff you have to personally recruit. I'm nearing 1000 troops, and I've seen people online via FOBs that have 2000. It's disgusting, unnecessary, and detrimental to gameplay for reasons already listed by Griss and myself.

Regarding deployments, I don't really care. It's harmless in TPP because it's not needlessly made necessary like the extractions are or how it was in PW.

the premise of my argument stems from being able to finish the game without needing to use shit like wormholes or needed to extract every single thing, like the person posted stated.

And now youre discussing some post endgame issues that rear their head at 130 hours, nothing to do with what i was debating.

And why would you spend +130 hours on something that frustrates you so much
 
I've said it before, but the gotta-catch-them-all Fulton mechanic hinders the gameplay in more ways than is immediately obvious.

Scouting for areas to hide bodies, like toilets and dumpsters, becomes largely irrelevant. You can disappear bodies into the abyss of the sky so making sure you know where you can hide them isn't real a concern. A consequence of this is that by not making note of hiding places you don't tend to incorporate them into infiltration strategies.

And lethality becomes even more of an uncomfortable option. It causes ridiculousness like being paranoid about executing an S-rank soldier, making going non-lethal feel like the right thing to do rather than just another option.

I think the game should have focused on gaining volunteers for Mother Base through your actions and removed Fultoning. You might rescue a person via helicopter and that causes you to get more volunteers, things like that. The Fulton metagame does nothing but hinder gameplay, IMO.
 
I dont even understand what point youre making compared to the points i brought up

please, articulate away

It's not reasonable to expect a player to handicap themselves in order to make things "more fun" when the designers couldn't be bothered to make it engaging or entertaining enough in the first place.

That was the argument that somehow was not apparent in the post you quoted.
 
I beat the game without ever getting wormhole, I only extracted people later on who were the lease common rank. (So if A's were common, I'd skip them for S) I didn't unlock a lot of the stuff, but you don't really need it to finish the game. It's more to have fun when replaying missions or shooting for all S ranks I think.

EDIT: I didn't do FOBs, played offline.
 
I think at this point it's really pointless to examine MG1 and 2 as what actually happened beyond the major plot points that are referenced directly, or are on the timeline in MGS series games.

So basically,

MG1:
Venom Snake killed by Solid
Ugly metal gear destroyed
Outer Heaven destroyed


MG2:
Gray Fox killed by Solid*
BB killed by Solid*
Zanzibar land destroyed
Even uglier metal gear destroyed
*not really



Anything beyond this, such as who Solid talks to in MG1, where BB is, etc.... is just speculation, and pretty pointless IMO.
 
Oh yeah where the fuck is Chico during this whole game.
He first seem to have died when the helicopter went down, but shortly before it exploded he was beamed out by aliens hovering above Motherbase. If Big Boss wouldn't have saved him, they would. They watched him since long ago, lives and lives in the past. In him grew an egg of the king. The aliens hatched it and as in incinerated them Chico was not only turned into the Apostle, it turns out he was now female. The demonic forces and the Skull Knight whispered to him to kill Big Boss.
 
I've said it before, but the gotta-catch-them-all Fulton mechanic hinders the gameplay in more ways than is immediately obvious.

Scouting for areas to hide bodies, like toilets and dumpsters, becomes largely irrelevant. You can disappear bodies into the abyss of the sky so making sure you know where you can hide them isn't real a concern. A consequence of this is that by not making note of hiding places you don't tend to incorporate them into infiltration strategies.

And lethality becomes even more of an uncomfortable option. It causes ridiculousness like being paranoid about executing an S-rank.

I think the game should have focused on gaining volunteers for Mother Base through your actions and removed Fultoning. You might rescue a person via helicopter and that causes you to get more volunteers, things like that. The Fulton metagame does nothing but hinder gameplay, IMO.

I agree. Specially those that have mentioned that tanks and heavy artillery is just a fulton away from being eliminated.

Good points.
 
You know what would have been an awesome ending? If Venom started losing his mind and they have to bring in the real big boss to take him out. You play as the real big boss for the first time and the game ends when you kill your doppelganger.
 
Hyperbole and nothing else. Capturing vs not capturing is a choice you can make. It's why you can't fulton dead bodies. It's why you're constantly encouraged to mix things up and try different tactics the whole way through.

What? You're outright penalized for killing soldiers due to not being able to build your base up and improve your gear. The wild variety of gear is the basis for how expansive your options become later game, and to create it, you are 100% required to fulton an unreasonably high, seemingly never-ending amount of soldiers.

Yeah, you can say it's a choice, but choosing not to fucks the player over pretty royally. On top of that, evidently you're demonized for killing by being covered in blood and growing a horn. The game definiely pushes you to fulton the fuck out of everyone, and it diminishes the experience a ton.
 
And i'd argue that the fulton mechanic is fantastic, it's addictive, and much like many of the tools the game offers you you can leverage it to your advantage or find yourself using it incorrectly and facing those consequences.

to each their own, but IMHO the thing MGSV does right is the minute to minute gameplay. The plot is ehhhhhhh it's pretty terrible but that didn't matter much to me when there was a legendary Ibis i needed to extract

Nah, that's cool, seems like everyone else got it.

i guess making false analogies resonates better with some folks
 
This is because, imo, the fulton damn near ruins the core gameplay.

Encounters with tanks and armor should be thrilling, but the fulton reduces them to 'crates i have to sneak behind'. Leaving a bunch of guards asleep as you make your way through a base should be a worrying thing, as they can be found or wake up. Not if I suck them through a wormhole! This, in particular, means there's little reason to play non-stealth, no advantage to it. If you tranq and extract, the guy is as good as 'dead'. Better, even, as the body's completely gone.

What's worse is that it turns your goal from being infiltrating a place to clearing it out. Snake goes from being a secret-agent-type to being Luigi with his vacuum. Hoover it all up, Snake! He truly is a phantom like Skullface, that guy's work was cleanup too.

All of this would be a little more bearable if Mother Base was any good and your efforts at hoovering soldiers and vehicles meant anything. But in the end, no. It's just a numbers game (hoover up enough guys, watch your level go up, game takes care of sorting them) with a shitty deployment mode stolen from AC: Black Flack hacked on to it, and nothing interesting on Mother Base on the ground.

What it should have been:
-Not taking the fulton means you get one more weapon. Risk / reward.
-Each platform on Mother Base holds only 10-20 guys. Each is important.
-You get 2-4 fultons at a time rather than fucking 48. You actually have to save your fultons for the very best recruits, and searching them out actually becomes fun. Getting 2/4 guys per mission is enough to fill your base across the main story due to the reduced personnel limits.
-You can't fulton tanks. Destroying a tank makes it available for development at Mother Base to make up for this.

This would have, in my opinion, solved a huge amount of my problems with the base gameplay. I remember the first time the fulton was shown, I was pretty upset. GZ worked great without it; I didn't like Peace Walker; I forsaw some of these gameplay issues. When I finally started playing TPP I didn't mind it at all. But by the time you get to the second half of the game the flaws are obvious.

And to add to that, I just find the idea of 'magicking' soldiers away on a special balloon to be really, really stupid. MGS is full of stupid stuff, stuff I like. But that stuff usually stays away from the core gameplay loop. Here it's a key part of it.

I kind of see your point but the game lets you play it like Luigi or like Sam Fisher or like Agent 47. I've played the same mission in those 3 ways and each was pretty damn fun. You don't have extract a whole base every damn time, so I'm kinda missing your point..?
 
What? You're outright penalized for killing soldiers due to not being able to build your base up and improve your gear. The wild variety of gear is the basis for how expansive your options become later game, and to create it, you are 100% required to fulton an unreasonably high, seemingly never-ending amount of soldiers.

Yeah, you can say it's a choice, but choosing not to fucks the player over pretty royally. On top of that, evidently you're demonized for killing by being covered in blood and growing a horn. The game definiely pushes you to fulton the fuck out of everyone, and it diminishes the experience a ton.

This is such a simple concept I have to question the validity of even asking for an explanation.

I'll be kind and assume these folk are trying to be Socratic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom