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[Reebot]

Thinking back I didn't even play this game as an open world. I did the main missions and get the hell out of there. I explored a little bit at the start, but I definitely got a sense of diminishing returns, so opted out of exploring pretty quickly. Camp Omega proves that the best way to go with the gameplay engine was smaller, more refined and content rich maps rather than large areas populated with occasional cut and paste outposts to pad them out.

I'd bet the vast majority of players had a similar curve, myself included.

You start with this grand promise of freedom only to realize the game really demands popping in and out at discrete points.

A dozen Ground Zeroes was the correct choice and its a shame they didn't go in that direction.

 

[SMZC]

I'd bet the vast majority of players had a similar curve, myself included.

You start with this grand promise of freedom only to realize the game really demands popping in and out at discrete points.

A dozen Ground Zeroes was the correct choice and its a shame they didn't go in that direction.

A dozen Ground Zeroes is exactly what TPP is, though. No base is as big as Camp Omega, admittedly, but the core idea behind the game is precisely what you're describing.

 

[Opto]

GTA V is the worst open world game IMO. Highway driving simulator

 

[Reebot]

A dozen Ground Zeroes is exactly what TPP is, though. No base is as big as Camp Omega, admittedly, but the core idea behind the game is precisely what you're describing.

No, its not.

The core idea is different, analogous to fifty independent sections of Ground Zeroes. The refugee camp, done a few times. The cliff side prisons, done a few times. The Admin building, done a few times.

Only rarely - maybe only twice - does TPP give us a new Ground Zeroes.

You can't hand wave over size and immediate connectivity, those are huge issues.

 

[KOMANI]

And yet this "unfinished product" still beats the living crap out of most games that come out nowadays in terms of game design.



I'm not sure what kind of open world games you have in mind exactly when making that last statement, because anything even remotely open-worldish that I've played in recent years is precisely like you're saying right there. MGSV is the one game that I can name which actually goes against the tide, teaching every other developer out there how to give freedom to the player in terms of the actual gameplay, as opposed to freedom in choosing which quest to do next.

As for MGSV not having fun navigation, I find riding D-Horse to be quite pleasant, with its amazing animations and controls. To mention a recent open world game that also features a similar way of traversal, riding a horse in The Witcher 3 is both a chore (control-wise), and ugly to look at.

You don't need quotations around unfinished product, because it is.

 

[Ishida]

GTA V is the worst open world game IMO. Highway driving simulator

You do know you can go offroad, right?

 

[MMarston]

You do know you can go offroad, right?

In his defense, there's not much consolation in doing so in that game despite the absurd amount of detail.

Depends on what you want out of an open world I think

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Sure. The desire to push the team to go beyond the call of duty is always a plus in any team. But the fact is that they decide to re write a whole section like 6 months before release. Redoing all kind of work that had already been done. How much of an impact did this scene have? did it really needed to be redone? no. this is the same as MGSV. Decisions were made to pursue things that did not enhance or impact the game. I've already mentioned FOB, the zoo, Motherbase as a whole, and like 50% of the empty terrain were you do nothing.

All of this things involve scope.. and its one of the first things you can see if they work when you prototype your game.

This is bad management. If things are not ready to move forward, then it doesn't until things are ironed out. Not the other way around. This is an easy way to blow budgets through the roof and wear your team down.

Your acting like game development is simply going from point a to point b

Projects taking a shift is just standard when doing something creative that pushes the bar higher.

It's unfortunate but it isn't necessarily bad management. It's more bad planning than management especially if you can still manage to get the team to execute the new idea.

Bad management is aliens colonial marines. Bad planning, bad direction bad everything.

 

[Unknown One]

By that logic MGS4 should be the least canonical of all MGS games.

Personally I'll keep considering MGS2 as the real end of the saga (with MGS3 being a nice bonus prequel) and MGS4 and everything that came after as terrible fanfiction. The gameplay is still great, though, and that's why I'm still a fan even after the embarrassment that was MGS4.

MGS2 is my real ending for MGS saga. I refuse to acknowledge MGS4 and MGSV. This is for the sake of my MGS fanboy sanity. I agree, everything after MGS3 seems like some sort of Big Boss terrible fanfiction. None of the sequels to MGS3 needed to be made. MGS3 was self contained and told the story of Big Boss's turn to evil perfectly in it's ending.

MGSV is by far the most pointless MGS game. It didn't even explain anything important. All it did was retcon things that was better left alone. For example: Psycho Mantis is ridiculously overpowered in this game. The game just made more room for plot holes. It didn't really filled any holes in the canon.

MGS should have ended after MGS2-3.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Just wanted to say: MGS V horse controls are the absolute best out there.

An example for other developers to strive for.

 

[Opto]

You do know you can go offroad, right?

bored doing that too. At least I can capture animals or see if a guard post has some A++ or S dudes in TPP

 

[RK9039]

You do know you can go offroad, right?

And swim, and fly. Apparently Snake forgot how to swim in this game, or maybe Medic never knew how to swim to begin with.

What's the point of an open world if there's nothing to explore or anything interesting to see? I said it before and I'll say it again, the wasteland of Mad Mad has more interesting things going than the barren wastelands of TPP. MGSV is literary a drop in and out kinda game, a pointless world where the only interesting thing to see are the sheep who endlessly stroll in the lifeless map searching for a purpose. Some say the sheep are actually searching for Quiet.

 

[Real Hero]

Just wanted to say: MGS V horse controls are the absolute best out there.

An example for other developers to strive for.

Totally, not once have I been annoyed at the controls. Hopefully Zelda is something similar

 

[MMarston]

Just wanted to say: MGS V horse controls are the absolute best out there.

Bro. do you even Red Dead Redemption?

 

[brau]

Your acting like game development is simply going from point a to point b

Projects taking a shift is just standard when doing something creative that pushes the bar higher.

It's unfortunate but it isn't necessarily bad management. It's more bad planning than management especially if you can still manage to get the team to execute the new idea.

Bad management is aliens colonial marines. Bad planning, bad direction bad everything.

As a game developer i know exactly what it takes to make games. So... pretty sure i know what it takes.... where things get bloated and end up costing money, cutting content and what not.

Also.. plenty of other developers that have shown quality work without compromising the integrity of the overall experience.

First to come to mind... and its a western developer. Is Naughty Dog. They also have cuts, edits, changes that are big, small... but in the end, they give a complete experience. Other consistent game developers. 343, Turn 10, Irrational, Hello Games.. i mean i can keep going.

Hello Games is a good example of gameplay driven games that is not compromised even tho their scope is insane with their latest game. But they also did Joe Danger, which is awesome.

There are other factors of course, like budgets being different in Japan, and who they hire for outsourcing. But the fact remains... good plans and a solid overall arch and scope makes for less bumps down the road. We all know game development is not straight. Something need to change... but being aware of were this can happen, can lead to assess risk in the project.

Look at it this way.

MGSV...

unprecedented scope
new engine
4 console sku delivery + pc
QA on such a big title + tuning
VA talent

Just the 2 engine and scope is big enough to bring some red flags. Some questions need to be asked? Is this necessary? and what do we loose if we make a more contained experience? If we reduce the game space 50% is the experience still the same. You bet your ass it would be.

Also, it seems to me that this game gets one pillar right out of 2.

Gameplay is king. They got this one right. Kojima wanted to do everything in gameplay. Infiltration, extraction... and mobility and what not... they got this down.
More heavy narrative and themes, tied to gameplay - they fail at this.

Could they compromise to give a better experience... i am pretty sure they could.

 

[Timeaisis]

Here's some random theories that are probably not true but fun to think about:

- Skull Face is actually Volgin, and the Man on Fire is a hallucination brought on by BB's horn and the psycho mantis child via Skull Face rage. It explains why Skull Face is so obsessed with BB and Zero and explains where he was during Operation Snake Eater.
He even says

Spoiler

Remember the Alamo

. Skull Face is really really burned, after all. Just like Volgin would be. He also has a very similar voice.
- Venom is actually still BB, and BB is just removing himself further from what he's done by pretending he's someone else. Ishmael is his good side trying to guide him back to the light in the prologue, but ultimately failing.
- Kaz is a spy working for Cipher in order to manipulate BB into killing Skull Face, which becomes Cipher's ultimate goal after Skull Face almost kills Zero.
- Ocelot is working with EVA trying to protect BB throughout this. He is only working with Kaz and Cipher out of necessity to keep BB alive and kill a mutual enemy (Skull Face).

 

[SMZC]

No, its not.

The core idea is different, analogous to fifty independent sections of Ground Zeroes. The refugee camp, done a few times. The cliff side prisons, done a few times. The Admin building, done a few times.

Only rarely - maybe only twice - does TPP give us a new Ground Zeroes.

You can't hand wave over size and immediate connectivity, those are huge issues.

Camp Omega is, I agree, the best area in terms of design of all of MGSV. To state that GZ and TPP have different core design philosophies is plain wrong, though. There are plenty of areas that are rather big by themselves, never quite as big as Camp Omega, true, but big enough to offer what is virtually the same kind of experience and gameplay.

I understand liking GZ better than any part of TPP, in fact, that's a sentiment that I share. But if you like GZ, it's impossible not to like TPP.

You don't need quotations around unfinished product, because it is.

The quotations are quite needed, because using the fact that the game's shitty storyline doesn't have a proper conclusion to call MGSV an unfinished product while ignoring the fact that the game has more content (and of better quality) than virtually any other action game in the market is quite disingenuous.

 

[Barry Burton]

I think it's one of the most boring open worlds I've been in, it's too empty for me. And to be honest these filler objectives remind me of generic MMO quests.

It's two-fold for me.

MGSV's open-world being boring and empty is ultimately better than if it ended up like a lot of other modern open-world games, with a map cluttered with all sorts of icons representing shallow activities. So, I know not to even waste my time exploring or traversing MGSV's open world, because there's nothing there to waste my time. I can focus on the missions and side ops.

The flip-side, however, is that it means that MGSV did not need to be an open-world game, and that's where I agree that it's a major shortcoming and pretty disappointing. You could strip the open-world from MGSV and just make each hot zone its own self-contained sandbox, and it wouldn't change the experience one iota for me. I was hoping for Kojima to bring some new ideas to open-world design that others haven't been doing, but it feels like a complete afterthought.

So for me, it having such a lifeless open-world doesn't hurt the final product as far as the game that we got, but it's disappointing that in making MGSV an open-world game, they didn't bring anything to the table (to the point where the game didn't even require this sort of design).

 

[Reebot]

Camp Omega is, I agree, the best area in terms of design of all of MGSV. To state that GZ and TPP have different core design philosophies is plain wrong, though. There are plenty of areas that are rather big by themselves, never quite as big as Camp Omega, true, but big enough to offer what is virtually the same kind of experience and gameplay.

I understand liking GZ better than any part of TPP, in fact, that's a sentiment that I share. But if you like GZ, it's impossible not to like TPP.

Well yeah, I don't dislike it as a whole, but that isn't a shield from critiques. Its profoundly disappointing Kojima and team didn't pursue the superior design choice.

And I'd say they do have different philosophies. TPP prioritizes expansive environments that can be, in a literal sense, approached many ways. Ground Zeroes had a more typically Metal Gear approach, a smaller scale with more intricate considerations of design.

 

[Nvzman]

MGSV is not an unfinished game. That implies that the gameplay is buggy and unplayable.
MGSV's gameplay is pretty much perfect actually. The story just needed a fuckton more to it, but that doesn't make the game unfinished.

The hate that some people have for this game is baffling. I was just as hyped as they were and I still feel like I got exactly what I wanted, which was a kick-ass stealth open-world game with a decent story. Sure, the story wasn't as good as the other MGS games or even as much as the trailers made it seem, but it was still certainly fine considering how huge the game is.

 

[RK9039]

It's two-fold for me.

MGSV's open-world being boring and empty is ultimately better than if it ended up like a lot of other modern open-world games, with a map cluttered with all sorts of icons representing shallow activities. So, I know not to even waste my time exploring or traversing MGSV's open world, because there's nothing there to waste my time. I can focus on the missions and side ops.

The flip-side, however, is that it means that MGSV did not need to be an open-world game, and that's where I agree that it's a major shortcoming and pretty disappointing. You could strip the open-world from MGSV and just make each hot zone its own self-contained sandbox, and it wouldn't change the experience one iota for me. I was hoping for Kojima to bring some new ideas to open-world design that others haven't been doing, but it feels like a complete afterthought.

So for me, it having such a lifeless open-world doesn't hurt the final product as far as the game that we got, but it's disappointing that in making MGSV an open-world game, they didn't bring anything to the table (to the point where the game didn't even require this sort of design).

Yeah that's what I was getting it. In the end, to me, the game being open world is completely unnecessary as it doesn't actually do anything with the large maps. The fact that it's so lifeless and empty means it should have never been open world to begin with.

 

[Dawg]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

 

[A-V-B]

MGSV is not an unfinished game. That implies that the gameplay is buggy and unplayable.
MGSV's gameplay is pretty much perfect actually. The story just needed a fuckton more to it, but that doesn't make the game unfinished.

Dude, Chapter 2 is full of filler missions that are replays of previous story missions. The climactic mission 51 is unfinished, and we have proof. The game is, quite truly, unfinished. All they were able to fully implement was the core gameplay.

 

[Lakitu]

Some questions about the ending:

So who was the villain in Metal Gear? The Phantom or Big Boss himself? Why doesn't it make it clear as to how either one of them became the villain?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

MGSV is not an unfinished game. That implies that the gameplay is buggy and unplayable.
MGSV's gameplay is pretty much perfect actually. The story just needed a fuckton more to it, but that doesn't make the game unfinished.

The hate that some people have for this game is baffling. I was just as hyped as they were and I still feel like I got exactly what I wanted, which was a kick-ass stealth open-world game with a decent story. Sure, the story wasn't as good as the other MGS games or even as much as the trailers made it seem, but it was still certainly fine considering how huge the game is.

I am sad to hear you can't understand.

But this game is still unfinished.

 

[backlot]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

Wow, I can't believe a guy you harassed on twitter blocked you. Are you gonna be ok?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

MGSV is a great game, currently my GOTY and that isn't an easy position to get when I loved Witcher 3 as much as I did.

It's pretty unfinished.

 

[The Dear Leader]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

rekt lol

David Hayter has no time for Hayters.

 

[RK9039]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

LOL, that was ice cold. Poor David.

 

[brau]

Some questions about the ending:

So who was the villain in Metal Gear? The Phantom or Big Boss himself? Why doesn't it make it clear as to how either one of them became the villain?

Its trying to say there is no villain. Apart from Skullface.

Big Boss is not black and white in its motives, and he is more humanized, and we see Venom as a man that tries to do the right thing more often than not, and is even haunted by his mistakes with Paz.

So.. yea.. i can't say the game is trying to say that BB or VS is the real villain.

 

[Dawg]

Wow, I can't believe a guy you harassed on twitter blocked you. Are you gonna be ok?

i'm not sure tbh

is life even worth living anymore

 

[KOMANI]

Camp Omega is, I agree, the best area in terms of design of all of MGSV. To state that GZ and TPP have different core design philosophies is plain wrong, though. There are plenty of areas that are rather big by themselves, never quite as big as Camp Omega, true, but big enough to offer what is virtually the same kind of experience and gameplay.

I understand liking GZ better than any part of TPP, in fact, that's a sentiment that I share. But if you like GZ, it's impossible not to like TPP.



The quotations are quite needed, because using the fact that the game's shitty storyline doesn't have a proper conclusion to call MGSV an unfinished product while ignoring the fact that the game has more content (and of better quality) than virtually any other action game in the market is quite disingenuous.

Does it though. Compare it to the other open world games/sandbox games that came this year... Witcher, mad max, arkham knight etc does metal gear really have more content than those games?
Also, it's not only the story that's unfinished, but so is the in game content. Mother Base is very underwhelming, and just listening to the soldiers dialogue, you see what was cut (animals running wild on MB for example), Battle Gear is not featured and makes no difference in combat deployment.
The "knocking" command is stupid. Choose another soldier, and command him to knock. Watch what he does. Also, do you know you still waste bionic arm material when you're playing as another soldier, even though it can't be equipped.
The attention to detail is absolutely gone in this game, and it's because the baron land you play in is so vast, it's hard to get all the details right unless you have a solid game plan goon in. After completion, this game is as boring to play as it is to watch a MGS4 cutscene.

 

[BizzyBum]

This game could have been saved if Hayter was still here.

 

[Ishida]

I
MGSV's open-world being boring and empty is ultimately better than if it ended up like a lot of other modern open-world games, with a map cluttered with all sorts of icons representing shallow activities.

Wrong. Both of those are extremes. But Id' say filling the map with "HEY! LOOK HERE!" spots is not worse than having a map with absolutely nothing of interest in it.

Having such a barren wasteland for an open world defeats the whole point of open world gameplay, which is exploration. You can run all day through the 2 maps of MGSV and you will find nothing of interest. Hell, not even easter eggs which are a tradition in MG games? Even MGS4 had a fuckton of easter eggs and little details in its scenarios.

You say that "no shallow activities" make it better so you can focus on the missions. Then why create such huge open spaces at all? Why not just drop the player inside a mission area and be done with it? 97% of the maps in MGSV is dead space.

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

Wow, what an asshole you are.

 

[brau]

i'm not sure tbh

is life even worth living anymore

Just follow Keifer.

 

[KarmaCow]

Wow, I can't believe a guy you harassed on twitter blocked you. Are you gonna be ok?

Seriously, why would you tweet that to him?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

i'm not sure tbh

is life even worth living anymore

I am blocked by Shu because I responded with Bloodporn. It's okay, I got Phil left.

 

[Toa TAK]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

Bra-fucking-vo.

 

[A-V-B]

Wrong. Both of those are extremes. But Id' say filling the map with "HEY! LOOK HERE!" spots is not worse than having a map with absolutely nothing of interest in it.

Having such a barren wasteland for an open world defeats the whole point of open world gameplay, which is exploration.

Shadow of the Colossus had an "empty" world -- that is to say devoid of enemies and activities -- but its world was absolutely gorgeous and there were all sorts of beautiful nooks and crannies to discover by exploring.

MGSV... not so much.

 

[Dawg]

Wow, what an asshole you are.

to be fair, he started it by using a twin snakes picture

you honestly can't blame me this time

 

[ShockingAlberto]

This game could have been saved if Hayter was still here.

I don't know about that, but I do absolutely think he should have played Ishmael in the Truth mission. Just that one, not the actual opening.

 

[Reebot]

Here's some random theories that are probably not true but fun to think about:

They are fun, but allow me to be Mr. No Fun.

- Skull Face is actually Volgin, and the Man on Fire is a hallucination brought on by BB's horn and the psycho mantis child via Skull Face rage. It explains why Skull Face is so obsessed with BB and Zero and explains where he was during Operation Snake Eater.
He even says

Spoiler

Remember the Alamo

. Skull Face is really really burned, after all. Just like Volgin would be. He also has a very similar voice.

Skull Face's background is stated plainly and without any wiggle room in this regard. We already know where he was during Snake Eater - behind the scenes in some CIA admin room. He physically cannot be Volgin.

- Venom is actually still BB, and BB is just removing himself further from what he's done by pretending he's someone else. Ishmael is his good side trying to guide him back to the light in the prologue, but ultimately failing.

Again, sadly, cannot be - we know from the later games (primarily Naomi, Grey Fox, and Snake's interactions/recollections) that Big Boss had no horn nor robot hand.

- Kaz is a spy working for Cipher in order to manipulate BB into killing Skull Face, which becomes Cipher's ultimate goal after Skull Face almost kills Zero.

Zero had the opportunity to kill Skull Face and elected to simply transfer him to Africa. Since Cipher is now retconned into being an organization and not Zero, you might be tempted to disentangle the two's motives. But we can also pretty confidently say that Cipher also has no intent to kill Skull Face, given they have ample opportunity and consistent knowledge of his whereabouts.

- Ocelot is working with EVA trying to protect BB throughout this. He is only working with Kaz and Cipher out of necessity to keep BB alive and kill a mutual enemy (Skull Face).

I guess this one is kind of true, wrong only in separating out Kaz. Kaz spoke with Zero and was onboard with the plan.

 

[Ishida]

to be fair, he started it by using a twin snakes picture

you honestly can't blame me this time

I'd say that of all actors that repraised their roles in Twin Snakes, Hayter was the most consistent. Most if not all of the other ones just didn't give a shit.

 

[BizzyBum]

I don't know about that, but I do absolutely think he should have played Ishmael in the Truth mission. Just that one, not the actual opening.

That would have been incredible.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'd say that of all actors that repraised their roles in Twin Snakes, Hayter was the most consistent. Most if not all of the other ones just didn't give a shit.

The complaint about Naomi's voice acting always bothered me, because I think her sounding like she's barely there makes sense. She's trying to keep her rage from boiling over by being totally unemotional.

People who complained about Mei Ling losing her accent were just being silly. That accent made no sense in the first place.

 

[PedroPanache]

i don't think hayter rikes me anymore

I can't believe he blocked you for that. I mean, other than being a complete dick to someone you've never met, I can't see much wrong with tweet.

 

[Toa TAK]

All I really wanted was an HD Fox Engine Boss, you know?

 

[wrowa]

I don't know about that, but I do absolutely think he should have played Ishmael in the Truth mission. Just that one, not the actual opening.

Absolutely. I was actually really disappointed when it didn't happen. It would have been a great fit and a cool bone for Hayter fans.

Generally though, I really liked Sutherland's performance. It took a while to get used to, but I think he portrayed that stoic character of Phantom Phain's Big Boss really well. I really couldn't imagine Hayter pulling this off.

(I'm actually replaying MGS4 right now and, phew, for some reason Hayter's performance is a lot worse than in MGS1-3. I wouldnd't quite call it terrible... but it's close.)

 

[Dawg]

I can't believe he blocked you for that. I mean, other than being a complete dick to someone you've never met, I can't see much wrong with tweet.

a real man would have come up with an even better retort

i'll never look at hayter MGS games the same way now

 

[RK9039]

Shadow of the Colossus had an "empty" world -- that is to say devoid of enemies and activities -- but its world was absolutely gorgeous and there were all sorts of beautiful nooks and crannies to discover by exploring.

MGSV... not so much.

That's a good point, that game works because you spent your time tracking down these awesome giant bosses and when you actually found them they were so unique and really fun to fight. The map of that game was specifically created to track these beasts down and I think it being a fantasy game helped in creating a sense of an adventure.