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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
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...Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
On the topic if the soundtrack, did anyone else think the final version of Quiet's theme was heavily compromised by the lyrics? It has a lot of feeling in the times we heard it before (in the E3 2013 trailer and I think a video showing 3D capture for Quiet), but in the game, I feel the lyrics just reduce the sorrowful tone of the song.
I understand what they were going for, and while I don't necessarily have a problem with them making it a departing love song or something, not only are the lyrics poorly chosen for the song, but to give it words ironically takes away its depth and interpretable message. Back when it showed in the E3 2013 extended trailer, it really seemed to fit perfectly with the pain Snake and Kaz felt, and the pain they'd continue to conflict upon themselves and others until their tragic deaths. At the time, when it was believed to be a part of "Sins of the Father", I thought it was a perfectly understated start for that song.
Amusingly, I feel like giving the song lyrics took away its character, and played again into the awkward love story between Quiet and Venom more than the pain all of the characters felt, which I feel was a better purpose. It could still fit perfectly for Quiet as her theme, well, that would need her story to have more tragic back story and less of a contrived way for her tragedy to play out.
Had a lot written up to explain my thoughts on how ridiculous the justification for her not communicating in any way is, or why she'd want revenge against Venom for anything (he was helpless in the hospital, and for her storyline to play out, the player must canonically not harm her and maintain a good relationship), but there is so much to spell out in how badly it is done, that I didn't want to waste a ton of my time on it. Suffice to say, even though her plot is pretty much the only arc with any development and conclusion, everything that is written to justify it is ridiculous.
Why can't she write, gesture, nod, or speak to everyone through Codetalker? The given reason is that she wanted to keep it a secret, except by the time of her torture, they already suspect with near certainty that she is infected, writing down anything wouldn't logically breed fear that she'd break her vow. If anything speaking through Codetalker about the situation clearly and openly would lessen suspicion I think, since she'd be able to explain her case and why she doesn't want to hurt anyone (something she even admits to Code Talker by speaking directly about her vow of English silence).
Why, if she was worried about the parasites mutating again, didn't she opt for the original solution for infection proposed by Codetalker, surgically induced silence by removal of the vocal cords that the parasites live in (or was it replace?). Regardless of if the vocal cord parasites live inside the vocal cords or replace them, it makes little sense for a person who had already vowed never to speak English, to choose a life of solitude and a lonesome death when the option exists to remove her vocal cords and live freely. She had already chosen silence (except for Navajo, which she could only speak to Codetalker), and she wasn't even sure she could even survive very long before the parasites mutated, right?
So why did she choose silence, solitude and death when the option existed to remove her parasites at only the cost of her voice, something she already chosen to abandon? Because Kojima wanted us to feel the "Phantom Pain". -_- The justification for almost everything in her actual plot is just about as bad and predictable as Kojima's justification for her exposure (fans got that nailed pretty quick back in 2013 didn't we?).
She's really only good because she stands out against all these weird half-characters as actually having some kind of emotional purpose and drive within the plot, but her story is undermined by its contrivances built for convenience. I stand by my claim that there is absolutely no reason for her not to have elected for the surgery to remove the parasites, unless the vocal cord parasites were really the same ones giving her super photosynthesis, water absorption through skin, invisibility/teleportation/super speed (remember, she could remove handcuffs by simply making her hands dissapear around them, her zipping around the world was probably not really teleportation but rather super speed and being able to dissolve at will but close enough), super healing, and extreme visual acuity at the level of being to focus her eyes on two independent locations at the same time.
Considering a number of these powers are apparently borrowed from The End (so dumb), and he never had any trouble speaking (though hey, maybe he wasn't allowed to speak Portuguese, I don't know), we can safely assume, that as the game implies elsewhere, the super power parasites are different than the vocal cord killer parasites. Therefore speaking through Codetalker and electing to remove her vocal cords and commit to silence would not only have removed suspicion of her as being a threat any longer to Diamond Dogs, but it's already shockingly similar to the path she had already chosen!
And she could have lived with her hazubando Venomu Sneiku-kun, "if only we shared a common tongue" my ass! Sign language, writing, gesturing, 20 questions, clearly they were having a grand old time without words so why complicate things with them am I right?
(Side-note: Suuuuuuper convenient for the iDroid to get messed up in this one particular sandstorm, sooooo unfooortunate that Snake blocked the snake bite rather than shooting it with a silenced pistol. Remember how every cutscene forces him to be using an MRS and that one pistol, tooooo bad that pistol is never siiiiilenced, right?)
Probably would have stopped him from seeking war for thrills, preventing the creation of Outer Heaven and throwing a wrench in Big Boss' plans to bring the world into eternal war. Thereby removing Solid's origin story and giving Ocelot the time to bring BB up to speed on his anti Patriot control idea, one that makes far more sense than some anarchist state.
There, problem solved, series over.
I understand what they were going for, and while I don't necessarily have a problem with them making it a departing love song or something, not only are the lyrics poorly chosen for the song, but to give it words ironically takes away its depth and interpretable message. Back when it showed in the E3 2013 extended trailer, it really seemed to fit perfectly with the pain Snake and Kaz felt, and the pain they'd continue to conflict upon themselves and others until their tragic deaths. At the time, when it was believed to be a part of "Sins of the Father", I thought it was a perfectly understated start for that song.
Amusingly, I feel like giving the song lyrics took away its character, and played again into the awkward love story between Quiet and Venom more than the pain all of the characters felt, which I feel was a better purpose. It could still fit perfectly for Quiet as her theme, well, that would need her story to have more tragic back story and less of a contrived way for her tragedy to play out.
Had a lot written up to explain my thoughts on how ridiculous the justification for her not communicating in any way is, or why she'd want revenge against Venom for anything (he was helpless in the hospital, and for her storyline to play out, the player must canonically not harm her and maintain a good relationship), but there is so much to spell out in how badly it is done, that I didn't want to waste a ton of my time on it. Suffice to say, even though her plot is pretty much the only arc with any development and conclusion, everything that is written to justify it is ridiculous.
Why can't she write, gesture, nod, or speak to everyone through Codetalker? The given reason is that she wanted to keep it a secret, except by the time of her torture, they already suspect with near certainty that she is infected, writing down anything wouldn't logically breed fear that she'd break her vow. If anything speaking through Codetalker about the situation clearly and openly would lessen suspicion I think, since she'd be able to explain her case and why she doesn't want to hurt anyone (something she even admits to Code Talker by speaking directly about her vow of English silence).
Why, if she was worried about the parasites mutating again, didn't she opt for the original solution for infection proposed by Codetalker, surgically induced silence by removal of the vocal cords that the parasites live in (or was it replace?). Regardless of if the vocal cord parasites live inside the vocal cords or replace them, it makes little sense for a person who had already vowed never to speak English, to choose a life of solitude and a lonesome death when the option exists to remove her vocal cords and live freely. She had already chosen silence (except for Navajo, which she could only speak to Codetalker), and she wasn't even sure she could even survive very long before the parasites mutated, right?
So why did she choose silence, solitude and death when the option existed to remove her parasites at only the cost of her voice, something she already chosen to abandon? Because Kojima wanted us to feel the "Phantom Pain". -_- The justification for almost everything in her actual plot is just about as bad and predictable as Kojima's justification for her exposure (fans got that nailed pretty quick back in 2013 didn't we?).
She's really only good because she stands out against all these weird half-characters as actually having some kind of emotional purpose and drive within the plot, but her story is undermined by its contrivances built for convenience. I stand by my claim that there is absolutely no reason for her not to have elected for the surgery to remove the parasites, unless the vocal cord parasites were really the same ones giving her super photosynthesis, water absorption through skin, invisibility/teleportation/super speed (remember, she could remove handcuffs by simply making her hands dissapear around them, her zipping around the world was probably not really teleportation but rather super speed and being able to dissolve at will but close enough), super healing, and extreme visual acuity at the level of being to focus her eyes on two independent locations at the same time.
Considering a number of these powers are apparently borrowed from The End (so dumb), and he never had any trouble speaking (though hey, maybe he wasn't allowed to speak Portuguese, I don't know), we can safely assume, that as the game implies elsewhere, the super power parasites are different than the vocal cord killer parasites. Therefore speaking through Codetalker and electing to remove her vocal cords and commit to silence would not only have removed suspicion of her as being a threat any longer to Diamond Dogs, but it's already shockingly similar to the path she had already chosen!
And she could have lived with her hazubando Venomu Sneiku-kun, "if only we shared a common tongue" my ass! Sign language, writing, gesturing, 20 questions, clearly they were having a grand old time without words so why complicate things with them am I right?
(Side-note: Suuuuuuper convenient for the iDroid to get messed up in this one particular sandstorm, sooooo unfooortunate that Snake blocked the snake bite rather than shooting it with a silenced pistol. Remember how every cutscene forces him to be using an MRS and that one pistol, tooooo bad that pistol is never siiiiilenced, right?)
Probably would have stopped him from seeking war for thrills, preventing the creation of Outer Heaven and throwing a wrench in Big Boss' plans to bring the world into eternal war. Thereby removing Solid's origin story and giving Ocelot the time to bring BB up to speed on his anti Patriot control idea, one that makes far more sense than some anarchist state.
There, problem solved, series over.
I wish he was in the game more. His ending would have been way more satisfying if they had built him up.
Nowhere near as good a badguy as volgin, but I still love him though
MGS haven't always had the best writing, but MGSV really takes the cake.
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
We need more pictures of Skull Face photoshopped into MGS3 scenes.
I would put a Quiet Exit on the same level as any MGS moments
KOMANI
KOMANI
What do you mean, "photoshopped"?
Snacks the sober sea lion
Member
ShockingAlberto
Member
A Quiet Exit would have been way better for me, if not for me getting the shower scene RIGHT BEFORE and then banging my head against Mission 45 for three hours.
semiconscious
Member
great or not, it was always fun. not nearly so much this time. huge amounts of repetition...
KOMANI
KOMANI
No, but we promise to have that topic on rotation by Wednesday
KyanMehwulfe
Member
it helps to turn off markers
i recently turned markers back on for Total Stealth Pitch Black or Extreme Code Talker (and the sniper fight) after doing both without markers, and it was like a different game....
game is a lot better without markers or otherwise reflex mode, enemy detection direction, item hud, etc... markers make it rather easy.
RevolverRoden
Member
KOMANI
KOMANI
Right, those options make it harder to run a stealth game, but it doesn't make it harder to get an S rank. The highest achievement in the other games is getting the foxhound/big boss emblem at the end of the game. But here, it doesn't mean as much.
Also turning those things off doesn't change the difficulty of "bosses" or a certain infiltration of a "OK" base.
MegaSackman
Member
You have parasites, the best kind.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
well full stealth or very fast completion are probably the easiest ways to get S rank, and it's harder to do either without markers... it's a lot easier to speed/remain hidden as you bum rush a mission when everyone is quickly marked by DD for you ;p
either that or trial and error until you memorize the walking of all the guards since they don't really randomize that much per much, and then i guess markers don't matter much but then again, that takes time... would have been faster/easier to just have guards marked from the start.
either that or trial and error until you memorize the walking of all the guards since they don't really randomize that much per much, and then i guess markers don't matter much but then again, that takes time... would have been faster/easier to just have guards marked from the start.
LurkerPrime
Member
I want to say they dismissed that possibility due to her unique circumstances--that is, her reliance on the parasites to keep her alive. So anything to disrupt the parasites would kill her breathing parasites, which would force to her rely on her annihilated lungs and then she'd die.
Nanoparasites, son. It's the answer to everything.
Red Blaster
Member
man troy baker's ocelot sucked
KOMANI
KOMANI
My point is, turning every hud off doesn't reward you (except for turning off reflex mode). It's a personal reward you get. Like completing MGS3 with just a fork and in Naked Camo etc.
darkwing-buck
Member
Big Boss:
LMAO
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
such a waste of a VO and the character.
RevolverRoden
Member
For whatever reason, he sounded completely different in cutscenes than in tapes. He had the weird southern accent in the tapes but in cutscenes he didn't. Tf is up with that?
darkwing-buck
Member
MGSV in a nutshell.
Red Blaster
Member
most likely answer: troy baker sucks when he's not being directed by neil druckmann
KyanMehwulfe
Member
yeah true... game should really have an extreme or subsistence new game plus or something that makes you fight S rank guards from the start, removes Markers, etc
speaking of S rank guards, holy efff can they throw grenades far... i actually measured it yesterday, almost 2x as far as Snake lol
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Dude Ocelot wasn't in this game.
Where the fuck is he, is he in a dark basement being held captive or something? Does he have a body double too?
darkwing-buck
Member
Dude Ocelot wasn't in this game.
Where the fuck is he, is he in a dark basement being held captive or something? Does he have a body double too?
hehe we all do crazy things when were 18-20 years old
KOMANI
KOMANI
I don't understand why not get Patrick Zimmerman but Christopher Randolph returns? Wtf is that?Dude Ocelot wasn't in this game.
Where the fuck is he, is he in a dark basement being held captive or something? Does he have a body double too?
KyanMehwulfe
Member
^it's venom ocelot ... when he self-hypnosis to forget about venom snake, his voice change and all flamboyant charisma -- the bragging and posing and revolver tricks -- were also forgotten
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Far Cry 4 and Arkham Origins. :| He sounds super texan in the tapes compared to when he's in a cutscene.
Uh the bolded isn't exactly true LOL. If you press the Intel button during the fight with Sahelanthropus, Huey does give you some tips about it. Maybe not super helpful tips but at least on-par with what Hal tells you about REX in MGS1 (except, you know, a weakness lol). He tells you at least about all of its attacks, weapons, and talks even about the armor Sahelanthropus has.
KOMANI
KOMANI
See, I thought he acted like a 3 yr old at a toy store . He saw what Troy did with Joel and said, " I want that".
GreyOcelot
Member
ShockingAlberto
Member
Ocelot's personality mostly shined through in the beginning.
"Now go, bring the legend back to life!" is the most personality he had in the entire game.
"Now go, bring the legend back to life!" is the most personality he had in the entire game.
heliosRAzi
Banned
This. MGSV Ocelot isn't the hammy Ocelot we've come to know and love.
KOMANI
KOMANI
I'm not blaming here, but Zimmerman would have squeezed whatever little was given to him since he has history with the character.
Despite my dissapointment with the unfinished story,i still love this game.
Venom is starting to grow on me and i feel kinda sad for the guy,he was so brainwashed by the legend of big boss.
Quiet and her relationship with Venom is the best part of the game,so tragic.
Also,i wish you could unlock XOF Quiet because she is so badass.
Venom is starting to grow on me and i feel kinda sad for the guy,he was so brainwashed by the legend of big boss.
Quiet and her relationship with Venom is the best part of the game,so tragic.
Also,i wish you could unlock XOF Quiet because she is so badass.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
This. Not both that it is the only scene with real impact, while not being too contrived (hallucinations were a major implied plot point, the game actually under delivers on it and this the only real use of it). I really think it was the best thing in the entire game, though it being an entirely missable plot and relying on a really vague method of progression, plus some repetitive dialogues at times was another failing entirely on Kojima.
This. I really feel like the lesson to learn, if one were to follow in this games foot steps is that openness is great and all, but tight level design is very important. Traversing anywhere in Ground Zeroes is usually a real true stealth struggle, you have to watch you corners and keep on your toes, better without marking so you can't be sure what's coming up, but with reflex to give you a chance in unexpected emergencies.
I feel like if one shaved down the progression system to just have just enough weapons and items to be a real good solid toolset like how previous games before MGS4 had it, and made the world a large number of diverse (in country, side objectives, and obstacles) with just enough freedom to provide multiple approaches, but not just open spaces to snipe far away guards with ease, TPP would be a lot better, at least in the gameplay department.
Openness is nice, but it got in the way of challenge when one didn't even have to worry about hiding bodies very much at all because of the fulton system and lack of hallways, corners and tight interior environments. Guards could see people being fultoned, sometimes too well as it seemed like they'd sometimes see it it happen through walls, but other times they'd be pretty oblivious, and despite their inconsistencies, their existed so much open space that simply running a body over a retalively short distance away wouldn't be too hard of a trouble to remove any worries about having knocked out or dead bodies to be spotted when considering one's approach.
I feel that if I were to make a spiritual successor to Metal Gear (something I would like to do someday, wish me luck), taking inspiration from Ground Zeroes is a much better idea in my opinion than TPP. There's just too much space to avoid guards in TPP, often times it came down to a matter of "make things hard for myself by trying to sneak in the most heavily guarded front entrance, or simply do a circle around all the guards from a distance until I can make a straight line entry and exit to my objective".
This is why the best missions in TPP IMO were ones that were "funneled" and had no clear objective that could be seen from a distance and remained interior to prevent a quick "ID the objective, circle around to vulnerable point of entry, sneak in-and-out while taking out any guards from a distance" solution (like 6, 12, 28 and a few others).
Y'know what? Hot Coldman is probably the biggest hero of the series, if only for this scene.
This. Though "no facts only interpretations", so I like to think of Huey as not being such a spineless murderer. I really don't understand how wanting to use Hal as a test pilot is enough motivation to kill Strangelove and his apparent "self deception" makes no sense to me. I prefer to write that out of my "V canon", since Kojima gave everyone an out anways.
Indeed, soon after I finished V, I went back to Peace Walker and its astounding how much we took for granted like set-up, pacing, foreshadowing, sensible plans and motivations, emotional connection between the player and characters, etc. etc. It's crazy how much better it is, its really why I was so surprised that Kojima apparently couldn't deliver on the story of revenge and Outer Heaven we had been promised. I truly believed Kojima had the chops to make interesting new characters that were more than simple boring plot devices and fan service vessels, and to make another dramatic tale about Big Boss, but I guess not.
Another reason Ground Zeroes was better than TPP, it actually feels like a true narrative, nothing is chopped up into chunks that don't even fit together properly, but I guess that's because it really was just one of those chunks, a single perfect piece of an imperfect puzzle, the others of which were lost or damaged before being given to us.
I'd say as long as the side-ops were as good as GZ's (read: actually had a deep connection to the plot through cassette tapes and prisoner and voiced guard and character dialogue), and they kept the pace of at least 4 story relevant side ops per main op, plus 2 silly non canonical Metal Gear fun in the form of 2 extra ops per hub, 15 main ops would have been excellent. They could even have a parody version of the plot play out in those extra ops as an unlock post game, and we wouldn't have the majority of "main ops" actually have less to do with the story than GZ's "side ops", it could have been so good..
The biggest problem is the story though, and having hub mission design wouldn't fix that. I still have no idea why Kojima thought it'd be better to have this train wreck of a story instead of anything resembling what the trailer's implied (simply a true fall of Diamond Dogs between a schism between Kaz and BB would have been enough to get some real feeling for why BB made Outer Heaven later). Why were the child soldiers not even given any development.
I re-did the mission with the child soldiers who had the "No. 2" of a general as a hostage recently, and his dialogue the second (maybe third) time around really delivered the feels. He talked about how he actually killed the general because that general had kidnapped him, he talks about how he was blindfolded and forced to pull a trigger, and then saw he had been forced to kill his parents. He was forced to work for the general as his "little brother" but secretly vowed vengeance, and finally took it one day.
Why was this given to some no name guy? Give this dialogue to one of the child soldiers on motherbase, and have them explain it in a cutscene focused on showing the horrors of war to the player! Have them have some kind of arc, geez! That was actually one of the demubest things about Episode 51 in my opinion, that they focused on dumb Eli who had in the game long ago forsaken any kind of meaningful character development, and didn't give any kind of ethos to the children Boss saved back at the mine. They simply, existed in the game. I was sure they had a large part to play, the game didn't have to go full "2taboo4u" and have them die as was heavily implies by trailers.
Just have then have some ethos and perhaps build up an attachment to BB that he eventually becomes corrupted by, one day giving him justification in his head that he is "saving all the orphans of war from being caught up in Cipher's eventual war economy". "I won't let them die an honorless death when they became adults, I'll train them to at a young age to give them a better chance at life than they ever would have gotten without me. I'll deploy them when they're of age to kill and fight against Cipher's tyranny!"
That kind of twisted reasoning is what I wanted Kojima to explore with all of his comparisons to Breaking Bad. A plausible descent into evil, brought on by a justification that starts well enough "save the kids from dying on the battlefield TODAY" and warping into "take war orphans under my wing and train them to be loyal and fight the EVIL Cipher that would have them killed for nothing when they become adults".
Notnmy only issue, as stated above, but this really is a big one. Same as with Quiet's story concluding with "awkward rain scene where BB and her look dtf", "torture and tits while BB just stands there without helping her", and then "guess I'll leave now and die alone instead of just following through with my vow and ridding myself of the parasites by voluntarily becoming a true mute". It's so weird, I can't believe how badly it was done. As I already said in my above post, why didn't she go through with becoming a true mute by explaining the situation to everyone through Codetalker and volunteering for the operation to remove her vocal cords? She had already chosen being mute over being dead, so why when she was worried about the mutation did she choose exile and eventual lonely death over becoming truly mute but also being able to communicate through learning sign language and fucking writing.
Ocelot still talks with his hands, at least. Him and Skull Face. If we didn't know their backstories I would speculate they come from Italian families.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Ocelot's problems aren't voice acting, they're writing. He just doesn't do or say anything interesting. His best scene is parroting information Big Boss told him about guns to the Mother Base soldiers.
He should have been a buddy, if only for a mission here and there. It would really be a crazy "HOLY SHIT FUCK YES" moment to have Ocelot and Boss fighting Skulls together.
He should have been a buddy, if only for a mission here and there. It would really be a crazy "HOLY SHIT FUCK YES" moment to have Ocelot and Boss fighting Skulls together.
Zimmerman would've done better. I mean it still wouldn't be great, but at least he'd sound like Ocelot.
"Maybe you're a spy. Maybe I'm a spy" scene would've gone from ok to memorable under Zimmerman, at least. I do agree the character as super underwritten in this game, though.
"Maybe you're a spy. Maybe I'm a spy" scene would've gone from ok to memorable under Zimmerman, at least. I do agree the character as super underwritten in this game, though.
"I only want to use the most efficient interrogation techniques to ensure everyone involved is safe"
MGS1 Ocelot: "I sure am consistent."
ShockingAlberto
Member
Despite my dissapointment with the unfinished story,i still love this game.
Venom is starting to grow on me and i feel kinda sad for the guy,he was so brainwashed by the legend of big boss.
Quiet and her relationship with Venom is the best part of the game,so tragic.
Also,i wish you could unlock XOF Quiet because she is so badass.
You can unlock the XOF outfit, which improves her character 1000%.
I wish it came with her shorter hair, though.
You do unlock XOF Quiet. Although she still puts her hair in a ponytail.Despite my dissapointment with the unfinished story,i still love this game.
Venom is starting to grow on me and i feel kinda sad for the guy,he was so brainwashed by the legend of big boss.
Quiet and her relationship with Venom is the best part of the game,so tragic.
Also,i wish you could unlock XOF Quiet because she is so badass.
Also, that pic right-click, save.
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