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SPOILER: Metal Gear Solid V Spoiler Thread | Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
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Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Tara Strong's fake central america spanish accent made it hard for me to look past that and take the tapes in for what they are. She sounded like a female speedy gonzalez and i counldn't get over how not-good her accent was.
we also didn't need that whole part where Ocelot, for no reason whatsoever, was like I PICK ONE CLONE YOU PICK THE OTHER WE WILL BE ENEMIES because that whole thing felt forced as fuck and no one asked for that.
we also didn't need that whole part where Ocelot, for no reason whatsoever, was like I PICK ONE CLONE YOU PICK THE OTHER WE WILL BE ENEMIES because that whole thing felt forced as fuck and no one asked for that.
Incorrect. Read the responses. 'That wasn't vague', 'I'm not pissed about the spoiler because that's what I expected to happen'.
You started by saying there was a twist, and revealed that it was an identity twist in your trying to be vague.
Nevermind, it'll just be my word against yours forever. But I wouldn't have remembered if it was nothing.
Berserker976
Member
Both her GZ and TPP tapes were nothing short of excellent, very well written and voiced.
For you but not for me
Nah man, some objectively clash with the established canon, that's not really debatable. If you want to ignore those contradictions you have every right to, but they are definitely there.
semiconscious
Member
damn, man, then what are you saying? of course, i (& i think most everyone else) 'accept' the ending. i mean, the ending's the ending! but that in no way necessarily makes it work for me, or means i need be happy or satisfied with it...
that i feel it's contrived, lame, & pointless don't mean i don't 'accept' it - i absolutely acknowledge it. that's why i despise it
...i like those tapes but naw. they're a bit too long and dialogue heavy for something in a single environment.
if there's anything i'm grateful for in the story of mgsv is the death of the powerpoint presentations that plagued mgs4.
yup, I didn't like her as Paz at all. frankly, I didn't like Paz as a character in general. her role in PW still puzzles me and was nothing more than an excuse to show off a teen in underwear.
KOMANI
KOMANI
I hear that complaint a lot. That sucks man.
On the other end of the spectrum, those Greek accents on the hospital? Mwaaa... Balisimo!
People said "that isn't vague," literally, in response to me saying it was a twist of such magnitude it would send shockwaves through the series. Notice no one is saying it has anything to do with identity, not even in spoiler tags, when they criticize me. Because I didn't say anything about what the twist was.
I just said it was a twist. And as you can see by the TC's comments, the issue was knowing there was a twist, not what the twist was.
Trust me, I'm also happy about how the cutscenes are generally short and to the point -- I couldn't stand many of the cutscenes in MGS4 -- but I think that in the case of the Zero tapes, a cutscene would've worked nicely. The tapes are still great, though. Top-notch work.
I thought it'd be nice to see the emotions running through zero's face, or any representation of him really. Facial animations in this game are excellent.
It certainly can't be worse than the jeep cutscene, or playing through the prologue again
No-one mentioned identity because that was the spoiler. There are 5 or so posts after yours talking about how you weren't being vague at all. They can't have been talking about you saying there was a twist because you were openly talking about a twist on the thread.
You said something akin to "not everyone is who you think they are" before "That is all". Isolated it isn't meaningful, but in combination with all of the other speculation it was obvious; Big Boss wasn't Big Boss.
KOMANI
KOMANI
There was never any Zero cutscene planned for the game. It was always envisioned to be part of the tapes.
can't help but feel they just didn't have the time or budget for another fully modeled character.
Are we all in agreement that the 'cassettes' idea was a terrible idea implemented fairly poorly?
Some issues:
-Tons of important plot details dumped into the tapes so it's easy to miss out on context that might explain things that happen during the game or at the end of the game. There were some details in the tapes that if you didn't know, made multiple plot points simply not make sense, which happened to me because I decided to not listen to the wrong couple of tapes;
-Pacing of tape delivery - For whatever reason you get roughly 50 tapes dumped on you at the same time over the course of a couple of missions in Chapter 3. It would take hours to stop playing, sit down and listen to them all. This caused problems because of point 1, above;
-You DO need to stop playing to sit down and listen to them all, because they are unlistenable while playing the game due to the constant chatter of Kaz, Ocelot and enemy soliders, after which you have to fiddle around in a menu to rewind;
-Lots of this stuff should have made it into cutscenes, or been real-time reaction from Venom so that we get a sense of his character. A good example of this is how amazing Zero's speech appears in the trailer when cut with footage, and how bland it feels listening to it while Venom stares blankly at the raindrops hitting the window of his heli;
-At the same time, lots of this stuff should simply have been left out or massively condensed (Code Talker I'm looking at you);
-Some of this stuff would have been better delivered as files to read, for the sake of brevity and variety (Code Talker god damn you);
-A lot of this stuff makes no sense as to how it was recorded or the tapes were recovered;
-Most tapes are dumped on you between missions rather than found or handed to you without an explanation etc. When Ocelot says something like 'Here's a tape of Huey's questioning' - that feels justified. You want to go listen to that right away. Most of the time, it doesn't and you don't.
On the bonus side:
-Hamburgers - These were so funny that it made me sad how humourless the rest of the game was;
-Zero's tapes - Despite coming out of nowhere, these explained a LOT of plot holes in the story, fleshed out Zero's character (which is something that REALLY needed to happen) and were brilliantly acted. They were a really good idea. Shame I didn't listen to them until about 100 hours into the game, 40 hours after I'd beat it, as I was busy working my way through my backlog of 77. (Not a joke number)
Some issues:
-Tons of important plot details dumped into the tapes so it's easy to miss out on context that might explain things that happen during the game or at the end of the game. There were some details in the tapes that if you didn't know, made multiple plot points simply not make sense, which happened to me because I decided to not listen to the wrong couple of tapes;
-Pacing of tape delivery - For whatever reason you get roughly 50 tapes dumped on you at the same time over the course of a couple of missions in Chapter 3. It would take hours to stop playing, sit down and listen to them all. This caused problems because of point 1, above;
-You DO need to stop playing to sit down and listen to them all, because they are unlistenable while playing the game due to the constant chatter of Kaz, Ocelot and enemy soliders, after which you have to fiddle around in a menu to rewind;
-Lots of this stuff should have made it into cutscenes, or been real-time reaction from Venom so that we get a sense of his character. A good example of this is how amazing Zero's speech appears in the trailer when cut with footage, and how bland it feels listening to it while Venom stares blankly at the raindrops hitting the window of his heli;
-At the same time, lots of this stuff should simply have been left out or massively condensed (Code Talker I'm looking at you);
-Some of this stuff would have been better delivered as files to read, for the sake of brevity and variety (Code Talker god damn you);
-A lot of this stuff makes no sense as to how it was recorded or the tapes were recovered;
-Most tapes are dumped on you between missions rather than found or handed to you without an explanation etc. When Ocelot says something like 'Here's a tape of Huey's questioning' - that feels justified. You want to go listen to that right away. Most of the time, it doesn't and you don't.
On the bonus side:
-Hamburgers - These were so funny that it made me sad how humourless the rest of the game was;
-Zero's tapes - Despite coming out of nowhere, these explained a LOT of plot holes in the story, fleshed out Zero's character (which is something that REALLY needed to happen) and were brilliantly acted. They were a really good idea. Shame I didn't listen to them until about 100 hours into the game, 40 hours after I'd beat it, as I was busy working my way through my backlog of 77. (Not a joke number)
I think the wording was "not everything is as it seems," which is how most twists work.
I think what irked people is I said it's one of the biggest twists in the series, which drew comparisons in their mind to the series' other famous twist. Maybe you were one of those people and started expecting an MGS2 twist.
But I never said it had to do with the protagonist's identity.
Not according to what you have mentioned, sound more like personal dislikes and disagreements.
The Liquid and Eli issue for example. The only reason he was shielding him was because he thought he was BB's clone, not because some connection formed between him and Eli. In fact there isn't a single cutscene or tape where Eli and Miller are shown to have become close in any way iirc. So naturally after Eli leaves and Miller finds out about the ruse, he is so damn pissed that he decides to keep supporting Venom Snake and aims to support Solid Snake (the obedient one who stayed and did as he was told for years, unlike Liquid).
I think just a motion comic or even a slideshow would've been fine. or like the old animated diagrams or FMVs in the past games would've been good as well.
Zero tapes were the highlight of the game, story-wise. Wish we got some more of that kind of thing. Zero and Paz, Zero and Miller, Zero and Ocelot, Zero and BB, Zero and Skullface (damn this tape was amazing) -- I wish we had a few of these in cutscene form. All were really well done.
I love all the detail they shared about how Zero stays hidden, i.e. Hell's Kitchen and everyone there being Cipher staff, the windowless and door-less room with the secret elevator, spreading the rumors about gang activity, etc.
You didn't say anything about it being the protagonist, but I specifically remember you implying a twist to do with someone not being who you think they are.
If you want to satisfy your own curiosity I think mods can see pre-edit posts, but I'm fairly sure about it. For me it was the day the MGSV speculation was basically confirmed, for you it was Tuesday.
base shagohod
Member
I wish the app would work properly so I could listen to these tapes without sitting in front of my tv.
omg, we could listen to tapes on the app?
KOMANI
KOMANI
Those tapes have that Metal Gear charm that seems to be missing.
As I think about it, everything is self serving but before Kojima directed us through the emotions. There's a serious lack of Kojima (except when quiet has her asshole hanging out), and I don't know if that's bad or good. I'm glad he experimented, regardless if he succeeded or failed... But I think I'd rather have him direct me than direct myself. I'm not talking about cutscenes, I'm talking more about the lmoments like seeing the Raven silhouette in mgs2.
I cryptically alluded to it being of similar magnitude to MGS2, which is where people took issue and I had probably gone too far. In hindsight, the twist is similar insofar as a character swap.
Whether I was too on the nose or whether you were good at reading between the lines, the bottom line is you were now expecting a twist of some sort. If that lessened your experience so you couldn't enjoy it fully like I did, I apologize.
another thing to remember is that most of those zero tapes took place in a room with no doors or windows. i dunno, the great performance from time winters could have carried it as a cutscene but i'm not sure how it could have been done in the 'one take' style the rest of the game has.
true on all counts. i wish they did more with the facial capture stuff, because when you actually get a moment to focus on it you can really appreciate the detail.
ah, ok. that's pretty cool. i'll try that out.
KOMANI
KOMANI
The app should tell you if your FOB is being invaded
Oh, yeah. I loved that stuff. Skullface even started sounding like a good villain in him and Zero tape!
Honestly, I liked Skullface as a villain, he just wasn't fleshed out enough. I think if he had more screentime he'd be one of my favorite villains in the series. His VA was really good, I thought. And he had a great presence, with what little time he had.
The one-take decision was the biggest mistake Kojima made as a director, imo. Made no sense for this game or for the franchise, and robbed scenes of dramatic tension that typical cinematography / editing tricks might have added.
MGS isn't about realism or subtlety. Shooting it in that way, especially in such a restrictive way, added nothing and removed a lot. There is also nothing technically impressive about a 'one-shot scene' in a game where everything is intangible so moving the camera around is a breeze, unlike in cinema where they can be stunning technical achievements.
It works for the prologue. It should have stayed there.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I never watched any of the trailers and I didn't like the twist. It has little to do with not playing as Big Boss (though I'll admit some consternation at how it was advertised that way) and a lot to do with how badly it was written.
- There's no build up to it. At all. And it still managed to be predictable, but mostly because it was poorly done. You go from the radiation leak -> Quiet leaves -> OH MY GOD YOU'RE NOT BIG BOSS did you rike it. It would be like if Solid Snake and Otacon were mourning Sniper Wolf, then Liquid came down in Rex, then during the fight Naomi called to mention that she really hates Snake for killing her brother.
- This revelation is only a twist because the game just lies to you. What a bad way to do a plot twist and Kojima did it because he knew how obvious it was. Why is "Truth" different from the prologue? Was there any indication you were going through a poorly-summoned memory at the time? Why is everything between the bed and the ambulance identical? If the memory was corrupted because of trauma or injury, why was it only that one moment of plastic surgery and the doctor showing you pictures, then later a cutscene with Ocelot that Venom couldn't possibly see?
- As a twist, it doesn't accomplish what an end game twist should. Let's compare it to other MGS end-game twists.
* Grey Fox is Frank Yaeger and Naomi's brother. This works because of Hale's really stellar performance because of how clearly she's willing to sabotage the mission and kill Snake for revenge. Her desire for revenge was credible and palpable. Leaves time within the game to digest and build.
* The PAL card launches the missiles, not stops them. Twist with a gameplay element, making you realize you were played. This feeds into the main theme of the game because Snake being repeatedly manipulated and overcoming it (again, through gameplay) is important.
* The S3 Program is for controlling human thought. Uses the frustration with the initial, early-game twist of Raiden being the main character, the game presents increasing weirdness to you as the endgame ramps up to be about information control. Campbell isn't real and Rose has been betraying Raiden. This is probably a little weaker than everything else on the list, but you're given time for the characters to digest this and explain their objections to the idea and their willingness to fight against it.
* The Boss was a Patriot. You discover that The Boss never defected and was sent on a suicide mission to be killed by Snake. Snake was manipulated into a tragedy, upending the player's motivation and how they viewed the entire story. It is a strong ending twist because it massively changes how you view every interaction in the story in retrospect. You start to see the conversations where Boss was trying to leave you hints, why she seemed to be more interested in your growth as a soldier than she was in your danger to her. No one changed personality to fit the twist, the game was written around it as a central point.
This is a long walk around the park, but let's compare these to MGSV's twist. The well-acted aspect can be argued, based on how you feel about Kiefer's tape in the ending and the hour of tapes after. I personally wasn't a fan, but that's not up to me to decide for everyone. The gameplay implications don't really happen. You don't play Venom any differently than you would have Big Boss. The revelation doesn't change this, either. They couldn't have made him different because that would give the twist away. You aren't given time to find out how the characters react, just a series of tapes that it's really weird that Venom has outlining how it came to be, which, boy, what a clear indication this was well-written because it needs so much more context than the very little it got.
Finally, it certainly doesn't make you go back and look at the game in a different context with the knowledge you've gained. Interactions don't become different, except that everyone is either mislead or lying. It matters so little that there's debate for some characters over which one they are based on when a conversation took place informing them of the twist. It matters so little that they had to explain Ocelot hypnotizing himself into not knowing so as to not have any cutscenes where the twist might be tipped.
The twist is fine, in a vacuum. In the context the game places it in, it's just that, a twist. You find out about it and then you're done. Nothing changes. The men at Mother Base acknowledge the twist with the same level of ambivalence that the player does. The only thing it does is explain why Big Boss came back in Metal Gear 2, which it didn't need to, because they explain it in that game as him coming back with cyborg parts. Which is a lot less outlandish when you consider that, uh, Venom came back from the dead with cyborg parts in this game, so why did that need retconning in the first place?
I think, if they had placed this twist in the middle of a finished game, like right around Mission 30, and the rest of the game was dealing with the fallout from it, it would have been a lot better. But it was a cheap "Haha, gotcha!" of the worst kind: the kind you see coming, but is treated like you don't.
- There's no build up to it. At all. And it still managed to be predictable, but mostly because it was poorly done. You go from the radiation leak -> Quiet leaves -> OH MY GOD YOU'RE NOT BIG BOSS did you rike it. It would be like if Solid Snake and Otacon were mourning Sniper Wolf, then Liquid came down in Rex, then during the fight Naomi called to mention that she really hates Snake for killing her brother.
- This revelation is only a twist because the game just lies to you. What a bad way to do a plot twist and Kojima did it because he knew how obvious it was. Why is "Truth" different from the prologue? Was there any indication you were going through a poorly-summoned memory at the time? Why is everything between the bed and the ambulance identical? If the memory was corrupted because of trauma or injury, why was it only that one moment of plastic surgery and the doctor showing you pictures, then later a cutscene with Ocelot that Venom couldn't possibly see?
- As a twist, it doesn't accomplish what an end game twist should. Let's compare it to other MGS end-game twists.
* Grey Fox is Frank Yaeger and Naomi's brother. This works because of Hale's really stellar performance because of how clearly she's willing to sabotage the mission and kill Snake for revenge. Her desire for revenge was credible and palpable. Leaves time within the game to digest and build.
* The PAL card launches the missiles, not stops them. Twist with a gameplay element, making you realize you were played. This feeds into the main theme of the game because Snake being repeatedly manipulated and overcoming it (again, through gameplay) is important.
* The S3 Program is for controlling human thought. Uses the frustration with the initial, early-game twist of Raiden being the main character, the game presents increasing weirdness to you as the endgame ramps up to be about information control. Campbell isn't real and Rose has been betraying Raiden. This is probably a little weaker than everything else on the list, but you're given time for the characters to digest this and explain their objections to the idea and their willingness to fight against it.
* The Boss was a Patriot. You discover that The Boss never defected and was sent on a suicide mission to be killed by Snake. Snake was manipulated into a tragedy, upending the player's motivation and how they viewed the entire story. It is a strong ending twist because it massively changes how you view every interaction in the story in retrospect. You start to see the conversations where Boss was trying to leave you hints, why she seemed to be more interested in your growth as a soldier than she was in your danger to her. No one changed personality to fit the twist, the game was written around it as a central point.
This is a long walk around the park, but let's compare these to MGSV's twist. The well-acted aspect can be argued, based on how you feel about Kiefer's tape in the ending and the hour of tapes after. I personally wasn't a fan, but that's not up to me to decide for everyone. The gameplay implications don't really happen. You don't play Venom any differently than you would have Big Boss. The revelation doesn't change this, either. They couldn't have made him different because that would give the twist away. You aren't given time to find out how the characters react, just a series of tapes that it's really weird that Venom has outlining how it came to be, which, boy, what a clear indication this was well-written because it needs so much more context than the very little it got.
Finally, it certainly doesn't make you go back and look at the game in a different context with the knowledge you've gained. Interactions don't become different, except that everyone is either mislead or lying. It matters so little that there's debate for some characters over which one they are based on when a conversation took place informing them of the twist. It matters so little that they had to explain Ocelot hypnotizing himself into not knowing so as to not have any cutscenes where the twist might be tipped.
The twist is fine, in a vacuum. In the context the game places it in, it's just that, a twist. You find out about it and then you're done. Nothing changes. The men at Mother Base acknowledge the twist with the same level of ambivalence that the player does. The only thing it does is explain why Big Boss came back in Metal Gear 2, which it didn't need to, because they explain it in that game as him coming back with cyborg parts. Which is a lot less outlandish when you consider that, uh, Venom came back from the dead with cyborg parts in this game, so why did that need retconning in the first place?
I think, if they had placed this twist in the middle of a finished game, like right around Mission 30, and the rest of the game was dealing with the fallout from it, it would have been a lot better. But it was a cheap "Haha, gotcha!" of the worst kind: the kind you see coming, but is treated like you don't.
Checked youtube and the numbers there pretty much support what I mentioned earlier about there being less cutscenes but overall about the same amount of story content due to the tapes.
Peace Walker had a ton (TON) of joke and side tapes but GZ and TPP were all business (story related), the only joke tapes were about the burgers.
For TPP, the cutscenes compilation vids are in the 5 hour range and the full codec conversations compilation vids are in the 6 hour range (the Truth tapes alone are almost an hour long). And this is not taking into account the content from GZ.
For comparison, MGS4's cutscene compilation vids are in the 7 to 8 hour range and most of the codec conversations are just side/fun stuff, there are few meaty story related ones.
So yeah, not surprised to see that I didn't feel like there was less story than usual after finishing MGSV. It was just divided more between cutscenes and tapes.
Peace Walker had a ton (TON) of joke and side tapes but GZ and TPP were all business (story related), the only joke tapes were about the burgers.
For TPP, the cutscenes compilation vids are in the 5 hour range and the full codec conversations compilation vids are in the 6 hour range (the Truth tapes alone are almost an hour long). And this is not taking into account the content from GZ.
For comparison, MGS4's cutscene compilation vids are in the 7 to 8 hour range and most of the codec conversations are just side/fun stuff, there are few meaty story related ones.
So yeah, not surprised to see that I didn't feel like there was less story than usual after finishing MGSV. It was just divided more between cutscenes and tapes.
Speaking of those tapes, I would sometimes blare out a few them on speaker whilst taking off in the chopper so the whole base could hear. I remember doing it for a few tapes where Ocelot and/or Kaz would say "Let's keep it a secret for now." or "Let's not tell the men about Huey"
Now that was a moment of unintentional hilarity.
Now that was a moment of unintentional hilarity.
This I like, the bolded parts I rike some more.
Graphics Horse
Member
The Zero tapes were fine as audio. I don't need to see kojima do slow mo zooms around the pin of a badge.
But the possible lens flare storm!
Roni
Member
To people complaining about the Truth in Mission 46: so it's basically OK to dupe people for an entire marketing campaign so long as you reveal the twist in the beginning of the game and let people process it, but not OK to dupe people in a way they don't even know it if they don't have the determination to truly finish the game?
MGS2 and MGSV have the same twist, except the one in this latest Metal Gear is altered to satisfy the major complaint I have ever personally heard about MGS2's twist: people complained about not being able to play as Snake for the vast majority of the game. This game fixed that by making the stand-in look and behave like the version of Snake we were expecting to play as for the entire game, and even after it the truth is revealed.
The story is just as complex as MGS2's and touching upon a large number of topics important to canon: like talking about the persistence of one's will and the inception of the idea to control society through information.
* Why did Zero end up relying on AI's to control the world;
* When did Cipher change its name to Patriots;
* Who created the Patriot AI's;
* How did the world change in order to accommodate the Patriot AI's
* How did Big Boss survive Outer Heaven's destruction;
* Why was the Big Boss from MG2 so differently portrayed from the one in MG;
* The reason why Ocelot was so eager to believe S3 meant Solid Snake Simulation instead of its true meaning;
* How did Psycho Mantis, Liquid Snake and Revolver Ocelot were involved before MGS;
* Who killed Miller in 2005;
If more content is released, great: this game is amazing and will only get better. But I'm satisfied with what I got. A lot!
MGS2 and MGSV have the same twist, except the one in this latest Metal Gear is altered to satisfy the major complaint I have ever personally heard about MGS2's twist: people complained about not being able to play as Snake for the vast majority of the game. This game fixed that by making the stand-in look and behave like the version of Snake we were expecting to play as for the entire game, and even after it the truth is revealed.
The story is just as complex as MGS2's and touching upon a large number of topics important to canon: like talking about the persistence of one's will and the inception of the idea to control society through information.
* Why did Zero end up relying on AI's to control the world;
* When did Cipher change its name to Patriots;
* Who created the Patriot AI's;
* How did the world change in order to accommodate the Patriot AI's
* How did Big Boss survive Outer Heaven's destruction;
* Why was the Big Boss from MG2 so differently portrayed from the one in MG;
* The reason why Ocelot was so eager to believe S3 meant Solid Snake Simulation instead of its true meaning;
* How did Psycho Mantis, Liquid Snake and Revolver Ocelot were involved before MGS;
* Who killed Miller in 2005;
If more content is released, great: this game is amazing and will only get better. But I'm satisfied with what I got. A lot!
Nicely said, Alberto.
The issue with the twist is that it exists so it can exist. The narrative warps to allow it rather than fundamentally support it.
There's great potential for a story about an imposter Big Boss. It could be overt, like the Raiden twist, or even more subtle. Some things tangential to the core plot support the twist, but the actual events of the story don't. Instead of Big Boss surving a FOXDIE-like attack the different genetics Medic Boss has are highlighted by a throwaway line that concerns a sub-plot.
So it ends up being a limp twist that only really has shock value, and barely has that; Big Boss being a fake doesn't matter within the game story.
The issue with the twist is that it exists so it can exist. The narrative warps to allow it rather than fundamentally support it.
There's great potential for a story about an imposter Big Boss. It could be overt, like the Raiden twist, or even more subtle. Some things tangential to the core plot support the twist, but the actual events of the story don't. Instead of Big Boss surving a FOXDIE-like attack the different genetics Medic Boss has are highlighted by a throwaway line that concerns a sub-plot.
So it ends up being a limp twist that only really has shock value, and barely has that; Big Boss being a fake doesn't matter within the game story.
KOMANI
KOMANI
And yet Kojima with those Zero tapes, he hands more questions than answers by bringing up that soldier's death that obviously effects the Boss, but we aren't made privy to who that soldier is.
If this is your last Metal Gear game, you'd figure you would answer/ tie things together... Not shit out a bunch of questions that weren't there previously.
If this is your last Metal Gear game, you'd figure you would answer/ tie things together... Not shit out a bunch of questions that weren't there previously.
Well said bro.
I also feel that the game is very much complete in it's current state.
Devilinthiscity
Member
So the timeline after V has The real Big Boss making outer heaven and then letting Venom Boss take over it while he goes and joins foxhound right? He then sends Solid to take out Venom thinking he will surely fail and that obviously backfires. So Miller must be pissed that Venom dies and helps Solid take down the real Big Boss in Metal Gear 2?
great post. there's def more story Kojima wanted to tell but it's over.
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